Romans 2

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I called Vandapool a coward which he is and no I did not nor do I deny. I’m denying that I lied about that or anything else and am still waiting for you to show where I did. He is a lying cowardly weakling who slung a bunch of mud at me and then disabled my ability to reply. HE started with ME when I simply asked a question with barely a whiff of sarcasm. That page is still there. I was willing to let all this go and just address your charge against me of lying. Others have tried that Chris. They failed too. I’ll tell you the same thing I told them. I DO NOT LIE. Simple. Then nobody can catch me in one. Your turn. Where is my lie? OR, recant the charge. That’s not fair?[/quote]

Listen Tirib, get back to Romans 2. That’s the topic of this thread, as the starter of this thread I have the right to request that you stay on topic. You told everyone that I could tell why I left the debate with you (you brought it up, but I should have known that you didn’t want to actually talk about Romans 2 you just wanted something to put dirty laundry out in the open) and that I could make it clear. I did and I tried to get back on topic.

You argued with me that what you left for me to do was not right, I said fine let’s leave it alone and discuss it later. You then bring Sloth into and avoid the topic again.

I asked you to drop it in my thread and to discuss Romans 2, so if I can count you have hijacked my thread and brought dirty laundry into the open about 4-6 times…after I tried to discuss the topic of this thread, which you requested about a dozen times.

Is this because you know that the Catholic Church is the true Church established, through St. Peter, by Jesus Christ that the gates of hell would not prevail against and that Romans 2 is properly understood when you look at it with the mind of Christ and his Bride and use a valid interpretation by the Catholic Church?

Ok Chris. If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your attitude would simply be: [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]?
Tell me that’s what you would do and we’ll go to Romans 2. A debate that I STARTED on MY Facebook page with YOU and that YOU ended because of a totally unrelated issue. You can’t have it both ways. In the above post you say that I started the debate AND that I don’t want to talk about it.

So, If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your would simply [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]
? Do yourself a favor and think before you answer.

LOL…you guys are a couple of jokers.

“You insulted my friends”

“Well you started it…”

(eye roll)

You two should limp on over to estrogen nation.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok Chris. If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your attitude would simply be: [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]?
Tell me that’s what you would do and we’ll go to Romans 2. A debate that I STARTED on MY Facebook page with YOU and that YOU ended because of a totally unrelated issue. You can’t have it both ways. In the above post you say that I started the debate AND that I don’t want to talk about it.

So, If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your would simply [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]
? Do yourself a favor and think before you answer.[/quote]

So, you’re not going to discuss Romans 2. Figures, we both know that deep down you know the Catholic Church is infallibly right, and all that invisible church bullshit is just heterdoxy crap that makes all the hippies feel groovy and shit. Discussion over, Jesus wins, heretics lose. If you want to make your own thread go ahead and make it. This thread is about Romans 2 and why the Catholic Church is right. You indirectly made it seem like I left the conversation (that I started on your page, because you fallaciously accuse the Catholic Church of universalism even though it condemns the very doctrine and not even closely teachers universalism. Instead of attacking the argument, you threw out non-sequitors) for bad reasons on my part. I explained it, I did what you asked once because I didn’t know you’d use to it to hijack this thread to talk about why you have truth on your side and why you never lie.

I’m done with this thread, so I’ll gladly oblige you now.

Tirib called http://patrickvandapool.com/ a coward. Because…Patrick wouldn’t allow Tirib to talk shit and removed his ability to comment on HIS website. Why someone that demands a level of decorum about debate I don’t know, something about respecting human beings or something. He then called Patrick a coward to me where Patrick couldn’t defend himself. Then he called Patrick a coward on http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/ to a Brent Stubbs in a comment. Tirib then on July 11th, wrote to me that “They are cowards.” So he repeatedly called my friends and acquaintances) cowards, though he claims he only called Patrick a coward, he called both of them cowards behind their back (defined as not being able to defend themselves). Which he claimed and I quote

[quote]BC writes:

[quote]Tirib writes:
I apologize for bad mouthing one of your homeboys, though I promise you it was NOT behind his back.[/quote]

Actually it was, you repeatedly called my friends cowards. Why you insist on lying about this I am not sure.[/quote]

As you can see, you said that you apologize for bad mouthing ONE of my homeboys, I’d assume you were referring to Patrick (since you admit this in this thread). You said it was not behind his back. But, you did. Instead of calling Patrick a coward to him through his website or e-mail you told me several times he was a coward (behind his back), and you put it on Brent Stubbs’ website (where he removed and even put up a warning about it and you even admitted to doing that) which is behind Patrick’s back. You then called several people cowards on July 11th. You did this in a personal message to me where no one could defend themselves but me.

So, you say, “I apologize for bad mouthing one of your homeboys, though I promise you it was NOT behind his back.”

And, I retort, “Actually it was, you repeatedly called my friends cowards. Why you insist on lying about this I am not sure.”

You say two things, you said you bad mouthed one of my homeboys, you bad mouthed several.
The other is that you did not do this behind their back, you bad mouthed them to me where they could not defend themselves…the definition of behind someone’s back.

I said that you actually repeatedly called my friends cowards you called Patrick a coward…I don’t know how many times, you then told me that I needed new Catholic friends, even saying that “They are cowards” to me (exception being Mark Shea). So…I’m not sure what I lied about in this instance?

You say you called one person, not behind their back, a coward. In fact you called multiple people a coward, behind their back. So…not sure what I am supposed to recant? You said one thing, it was not true.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
LOL…you guys are a couple of jokers.

“You insulted my friends”

“Well you started it…”

(eye roll)[/quote]

Basically. That’s why I’m done with this thread.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok Chris. If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your attitude would simply be: [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]?
Tell me that’s what you would do and we’ll go to Romans 2. A debate that I STARTED on MY Facebook page with YOU and that YOU ended because of a totally unrelated issue. You can’t have it both ways. In the above post you say that I started the debate AND that I don’t want to talk about it.

So, If I said this: [quote]you insist on lying[/quote] to you, you are telling the people reading this thread that upon my my refusal to either substantiate that charge or recant that your would simply [quote]get back to Romans 2[/quote]and[quote]stay on topic[/quote]
? Do yourself a favor and think before you answer.[/quote]

So, you’re not going to discuss Romans 2. Figures, we both know that deep down you know the Catholic Church is infallibly right, and all that invisible church bullshit is just heterdoxy crap that makes all the hippies feel groovy and shit. Discussion over, Jesus wins, heretics lose. If you want to make your own thread go ahead and make it. This thread is about Romans 2 and why the Catholic Church is right. You indirectly made it seem like I left the conversation (that I started on your page, because you fallaciously accuse the Catholic Church of universalism even though it condemns the very doctrine and not even closely teachers universalism. Instead of attacking the argument, you threw out non-sequitors) for bad reasons on my part. I explained it, I did what you asked once because I didn’t know you’d use to it to hijack this thread to talk about why you have truth on your side and why you never lie.

I’m done with this thread, so I’ll gladly oblige you now.

Tirib called http://patrickvandapool.com/ a coward. Because…Patrick wouldn’t allow Tirib to talk shit and removed his ability to comment on HIS website. Why someone that demands a level of decorum about debate I don’t know, something about respecting human beings or something. He then called Patrick a coward to me where Patrick couldn’t defend himself. Then he called Patrick a coward on http://www.almostnotcatholic.com/ to a Brent Stubbs in a comment. Tirib then on July 11th, wrote to me that “They are cowards.” So he repeatedly called my friends and acquaintances) cowards, though he claims he only called Patrick a coward, he called both of them cowards behind their back (defined as not being able to defend themselves). Which he claimed and I quote

[quote]BC writes:

[quote]Tirib writes:
I apologize for bad mouthing one of your homeboys, though I promise you it was NOT behind his back.[/quote]

Actually it was, you repeatedly called my friends cowards. Why you insist on lying about this I am not sure.[/quote]

As you can see, you said that you apologize for bad mouthing ONE of my homeboys, I’d assume you were referring to Patrick (since you admit this in this thread). You said it was not behind his back. But, you did. Instead of calling Patrick a coward to him through his website or e-mail you told me several times he was a coward (behind his back), and you put it on Brent Stubbs’ website (where he removed and even put up a warning about it and you even admitted to doing that) which is behind Patrick’s back. You then called several people cowards on July 11th. You did this in a personal message to me where no one could defend themselves but me.

So, you say, “I apologize for bad mouthing one of your homeboys, though I promise you it was NOT behind his back.”

And, I retort, “Actually it was, you repeatedly called my friends cowards. Why you insist on lying about this I am not sure.”

You say two things, you said you bad mouthed one of my homeboys, you bad mouthed several.
The other is that you did not do this behind their back, you bad mouthed them to me where they could not defend themselves…the definition of behind someone’s back.

I said that you actually repeatedly called my friends cowards you called Patrick a coward…I don’t know how many times, you then told me that I needed new Catholic friends, even saying that “They are cowards” to me (exception being Mark Shea). So…I’m not sure what I lied about in this instance?

You say you called one person, not behind their back, a coward. In fact you called multiple people a coward, behind their back. So…not sure what I am supposed to recant? You said one thing, it was not true. [/quote]

And this kind of crap is why I put him on ignore… He uses tactics, not sound reason or judgement. The problem with indulging him is uses it to do as much harm as humanly possible and dressing it up as a defense of God when in reality it’s more of an insult.

You gave him access to friends of yours and you had some expectation of that be handled respectfully? That he wouldn’t dig deep to stab you strait in the back, while looking you in the face and saying “I love you MAAAAAN!”? I call you out on that, because you knew better than to trust him with that. But my admonition is mild because because I know your heart is good and kind. I know your are following the Catholic tenant of “Seventy times seven times”. You are a good man BC and your passion for Christ is what I love most about you.

I going to tell you flat out, if you haven’t figured it out by now, that you absolutely cannot trust tirib. You must be careful how much you let him in. He will take any opportunity to hurt you or anybody else so long as it benefits himself. You have seen it, so have I, so has anyone who has dealt with him in any detail. You judge a tree by it’s fruit. That tree ain’t never going to change.

I called Vandapool a coward for slinging phoney accusations at me and then disabling my ability to respond which he did and I stand by. If he wouldn’t have disabled my ability to respond (which I could’ve gotten around) or actually engaged somebody in debate outside of his little insulated realm of sycophantic peasants I would have told him to his face. In fact I still have the post that I had at the ready if I decided to force a reply on that page. I decided against it on the grounds that forcing myself onto his site after he’d retreated would defeat my purpose.

On the 11th Brent had still refused to post my reply AND made it sound like I was referring to him when it was actually Vandapool. I honestly did forget that statement I had made about him to you in the midst of a 59 post private exchange in Facebook chat on that day (July 11th). I stand corrected there. He has recently shown himself a bit better than at first so I’m happy about that. When you are prevented from saying something to somebody BY THEM (Vandapool) because they’re a whimpering weakling who runs away when pressed in the slightest, that is not talking behind their back. Saying that same thing to you after having been so prevented is also not behind anybody’s back. He can’t even think straight when under a little pressure. He re-accused me of posting that nuke .gif as if I’d denied it when in fact I flat out STATED I DID and that I stood by it.

Why would I talk behind anybody’s back Chris? That’s laughable even for my worst haters here to buy. They know better. I have no problem saying what’s on my mind to ANYBODY. Never have and 14000 posts are the evidence. This is what you call lying? Fine. And I never said you lied at all. I did say that if I HAD said it, you would never let it go which you most assuredly would not.

Now. I have some more study to do because I have been presented with an interpretation of Romans 2 that plausibly challenges my own. However, are they any Catholics (big C Chris) on this planet who are willing to debate without any more of this diversion? I’ve been willing since I started on my Facebook page where YOU left a couple weeks ago AND deleted the conversation.

Pat, you are just as lovably entertaining as you always were. The thread where you put me on ignore is still here and it looks like you learned nothing. I’ll do you solid and leave that alone for now. You are however ALWAYS welcome my old friend. What about you? Unless I misunderstood(I hope I did. he and I have been having communication issues lately), it looks like dearest Christopher might run away again. Romans 2? Your favorite passage. I don’t know how many times you butchered that it to me.

It’s idiotic and redundant to start another Romans 2 thread, but if you are decommissioning this one for some sort of sentimental reason, the Catholic Q&A thread will do too. There is no reason to start another one. Oh, for the one thousandth time. I have never said that the Catholic (big C) church teaches universalism. That is still sitting on Brent’s page. I also know that infallibility doesn’t mean being right about everything. Or being free from sin. Always have. Did you get those now? =]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646. [/quote]And, what authority do they have to declare doctrine?[/quote]Do you still wanna do Romans 2 Chris? Quite honestly I started studying it again and am reminded once more of how that whole book is practically necessary context for any of it’s more difficult passages.
Is it possible and what would happen IF you were to be confronted with an instance of an authoritative Catholic (big C) interpretation of scripture you were certain was wrong? Is that possible and what would happen?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646. [/quote]And, what authority do they have to declare doctrine?[/quote]Do you still wanna do Romans 2 Chris? Quite honestly I started studying it again and am reminded once more of how that whole book is practically necessary context for any of it’s more difficult passages.
Is it possible and what would happen IF you were to be confronted with an instance of an authoritative Catholic (big C) interpretation of scripture you were certain was wrong? Is that possible and what would happen?[/quote]

Put it forth. I’m not scared of being confronted with the truth, that’s why I’m Catholic. I’ve thrown almost everything I’ve had away for the sake truth and I set the loss at naught.

@Dearest Christopher:
Is it possible and what would happen IF you were to be confronted with an instance of an authoritative Catholic (big C) interpretation of scripture you were certain was wrong? Is that possible and what would happen? Have you concluded out of hand in an a-priori fashion that no matter what you’re shown the Catholic (big C) interpretation MUST be correct because it’s Catholic (big C)? I’m just asking and I do not want to fight with you some more.

I’m asking an honest question Chris.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@Dearest Christopher:
Is it possible and what would happen IF you were to be confronted with an instance of an authoritative Catholic (big C) interpretation of scripture you were certain was wrong? Is that possible and what would happen? Have you concluded out of hand in an a-priori fashion that no matter what you’re shown the Catholic (big C) interpretation MUST be correct because it’s Catholic (big C)? I’m just asking and I do not want to fight with you some more.[/quote]

Let me show you what I read:

Is it possible and what would happen IF you were to be confronted with an instance of an authoritative interpretation of scripture by Jesus’s body you were certain was wrong? Is that possible and what would happen? Have you concluded out of hand in an a-priori fashion that no matter what you’re shown Jesus’ body’s interpretation MUST be correct because it’s Jesus’ body? I’m just asking and I do not want to fight with you some more.

Jesus founded a Church, he said he’d protect that Church with the Holy Ghost in matters of faith and morals. When the Church speaks, God himself speaks in those matters. That’s how we have assurance of truth, and assurance of freedom.

If I was confronted with an interpretation of scripture I would have to form my mind to Jesus and the Church. I have hold no idea that my mind is anywhere close to fully formed in truth. I hold many false ideas when it comes to life in general and in particular faith. That is part of being Catholic is to constantly form your mind to Jesus.

P.S. When did the interface of T-Nation change?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< If I was confronted with an interpretation of scripture I would have to form my mind to Jesus and the Church. I have hold no idea that my mind is anywhere close to fully formed in truth. I hold many false ideas when it comes to life in general and in particular faith. That is part of being Catholic is to constantly form your mind to Jesus.[/quote]So just to be clear. Before anything else happens here you already know that there CANNOT be an interpretation of scripture that conflicts with the Catholic (Big C) interpretation. Period. No amount of evidence. Historical, exegetical, lexical _________________ can produce an interpretation at variance with the Catholic (Big C) interpretation. Actually there simply CANNOT be such evidence because we already know before the first syllable is spoken that the Catholic (Big C) church is Christ’s body and could never make such a mistake. Just so were clear there? That’s what being Catholic (Big C Chris) is? I won’t bother asking you how you know that.

Also. Is Haydock’s the only Catholic (Big C) commentary on Romans presently in existence? I need to find an indisputable Catholic (Big C) source (preferably with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat)that says that 14th and 15th verses of Chapter 2 are referring to a genuine state of affairs concerning unconverted gentiles. Haydock says that I suppose, but I was looking for a bit more.

I really am not enjoying you being angry at me Chris. =( Don’t even waste a keystroke trying to deny that you are. It’s oozing across the web to me. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:P.S. When did the interface of T-Nation change?[/quote]Which part?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So I picked up the gist of it from BC’s post. If what he’s said is even remotely accurate…

Tirib, I’m not taking you off ignore to see your reply, but it’s honestly time for you to seek a bit of help. And that’s not me being a smart-ass. If these events are true, as related here, then it’s time for you put the internet down and seek counseling. What has just been shared isn’t normal, healthy, and it’s rather worrisome. You’ve expressed troubles with addictions in the past, but it sounds to me you’ve replaced it with another.

More recently you’ve expressed some hardships with work, keeping your home, etc. You’ve come out if it…changed. You’re not the same person at all. You’re now obsessed with calling out Catholics, tracking them down, their friends down, and ‘taking the fight to them.’ Again, this is alarming behavior. I’m relieved to have stuck to my “no personal info” policy back when I was still taking your PM’s, despite your requests for e-mails and phone calls.

Put away your pride, your crusade, close out the browser, and start sorting out your thoughts and social skills. Get professional help. I honestly wish you the best of luck with it, and the courage to realize something has gone wrong.[/quote]

I don’t often agree with sloth, but… yeah. This.

No offence Tirib. You know I love ya man and spiritually we’ve been through alot. But you don’t have to put (Big C) next to every instance that you use the word Catholic (see…no Big C required…well, ok but just to make a point). Many know the origins of it and its run its course. It was an eye sore to read your last post because all I read was (Big C). Its a bit insulting to the Catholics at this point.

I hope you are doing well. I am praying for you. God bless you.

PS: This is a good example that those who care for each other can still point out errors in good faith and love.

[quote]forbes wrote:
No offence Tirib. You know I love ya man and spiritually we’ve been through alot. But you don’t have to put (Big C) next to every instance that you use the word Catholic (see…no Big C required…well, ok but just to make a point). Many know the origins of it and its run its course. It was an eye sore to read your last post because all I read was (Big C). Its a bit insulting to the Catholics at this point.
[/quote]

Totally agree. It carries a grating tone of condescension and I am actually impressed that Chris has never said anything about it. We get it. I’m sure Chris gets it, too.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I really am not enjoying you being angry at me Chris. =( Don’t even waste a keystroke trying to deny that you are. It’s oozing across the web to me.
[/quote]

I’m not even mad. Let alone angry.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
So just to be clear. Before anything else happens here you already know that there CANNOT be an interpretation of scripture that conflicts with the Catholic (Big C) interpretation.[/quote]

There can, but it is not valid.

Unless Jesus didn’t establish a Church.

Oh, it can and it has, but that doesn’t mean it is valid. Just look at all the “historical Jesus” interpretations of the Bible. To ignore that the Bible is a Catholic artifact is the usual reason for people coming to somewhat invalid interpretations of scripture.

Of course there can be evidence, however evidence can be non-convincing. Such as when taken out of context or when standards aren’t used to look at scripture properly.

Being Catholic is a million things, but one of them is forming one’s mind to the mind of Jesus. This is evident through our Creeds at the most basic level.

Ok.

No. I’ll look around for some more. Most of my commentaries on Scripture are excerpts from writings of the ECF and Doctors and Saints through the past 2000 years.