Roe v. Wade: 42 Years in the Past

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1001

[quote]confusion wrote:
So,most christians defile the Sabbath. Most christian preacher teach tithing 10% of your earnings to the church. This is taught no where in the new testament,for the gentile christians. Is it ok to give 10% to the church? Of course! is it ok to teach that god commands it for new testament christians,no,because it is a lie. Confusion[/quote]

This is a non sequitur. Christians do not ‘defile’ the Sabbath, we celebrate it on Sunday rather than Saturday.
The idea of tithing came from Genesis as well as mentioned as part of Mosaic Law. Tithing is a recommendation based on the action of Abraham and his tithing to Melchizedek. And while some Christian ministers take the idea of tithing way to far. As a Christian, it is important to tithe, but it’s not a requirement to give it all to the Church. Tithing is part of the Christian mission, to provide for the poor the help people in the various ways in which people need help as well as support for the Church.
Christians, even modern Judaism is not beholden to Mosaic Law as it was the constitution for a people and a country at a particular time and place in history. The Torah is part of our history, it’s important to know, but is not applicable in many instances. For instance, the rules for the Tent of Meeting and law regarding the Arc, are no longer applicable. There is no Arc, or Tent of Meeting hence laws regarding it are not applicable.

1002

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Varq,

Any thoughts on Panentheism?

I see Push said that your beliefs are Pantheistic. I rarely see Panentheism mentioned, though to me it “makes more sense”. [/quote]

Pantheists don’t believe in a personal God. In fact, they don’t even believe that God is a being or entity. Pantheism is basically monism with God being everything. Spinoza was a pantheist and considered a heretic due to his beliefs. In fact, in the 18th Century calling someone a “Spinozaist” was an insult meaning they were a nihilist / atheist. I feel pretty confident none of this describes push. What made you think he was a pantheist?

Edit: sorry misread your post. You were talking a about varq. And it seems you’re talking about panentheism not pantheism. I should read comments more closely before I respond.[/quote]

From what I have read Spinoza seems to be Panentheistic.

" Though Spinoza has been called the “prophet” and "prince"of pantheism, in a letter to Henry Oldenburg Spinoza states that: "as to the view of certain people that I identify god with nature (taken as a kind of mass or corporeal matter), they are quite mistaken. For Spinoza, our universe (cosmos) is a mode under two attributes of Thought and Extension. God has infinitely many other attributes which are not present in our world. According to German philosopher Karl Jaspers, when Spinoza wrote “Deus sive Natura” (God or Nature) Spinoza did not mean to say that God and Nature are interchangeable terms, but rather that God’s transcendence was attested by his infinitely many attributes, and that two attributes known by humans, namely Thought and Extension, signified God’s immanence. "
[/quote]

Okay, but his metaphysical system is nihilistic as Friedrich Jacobi said. He didn’t believe in a personal God.[/quote]

  • How was his system nihilistic? Is one automatically a nihilist if they do not believe in a personal God?

  • What do you mean by personal God? If all and everything around you is God or an extension of, is that not personal? Would not it being Panen-Theism and not -Deism make it personal or at least interactive?

1003

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Well, I went back to page 37, but you asked several questions, so I am not sure which one you want an answer to. I will try if you can repeat it.[/quote]

I believe his question was about Christians not keeping the ten commandments, particularly the third (or fourth, depending how you count them): resting on the Sabbath and keeping it holy.

He wants to know why Christians observe Sunday, the first day of the week, as a holy day, rather than Saturday, which is the seventh.

You may provide your own answer, but it has always been my impression that Saturday was the holy day for Christians up until Emperor Constantine, a sun worshipper before his conversion to Christianity, made the prevalent holy day in the Eastern Empire at the time (“Sun Day”) into the Christian holy day.
[/quote]

Constantine made it official but Christians were observing the ‘Lord’s Day’ or Sunday, the first day of the week as a day for rest and prayer since Apostolic times. There are several reasons for this. One, and probably most importantly, it was the day of the Resurrection, hence was considered the ‘Lord’s Day’ and the most important day of the week for rest and prayer. Also, there was a deliberate attempt not to entangle the Christian tradition, with Jewish. Also, there was a deliberate attempt to take pagan traditions and transfer them in to Christian one. Presumably, so as to not change the culture and traditions of peoples, but to convert the nature of thee traditions from pagan to Christian.
We didn’t dispose with the 10 commandments, we changed the which day was the Sabbath for those and other reasons. Christians are not beholden to Mosaic law specifically. We adhere to the heart of the law rather than the letter of it.
Hence, we do observe the Sabbath but the Christian Sabbath is Sunday, not Saturday.

Does this answer the question? [/quote]

Yes. Well answered. I will contend the claim that sunday was the day of worship/rest in apostolic times. It MAY have been,but we don’t know for sure. Your idea comes from here :Revelation 1:10King James Version (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
John says he was in the spirit. He maybe did that every day. We don’t know.
I don’t believe there is another reference to worshipping on the lords day.
Lets remember that the sabbath CANNOT be changed to sunday. It is clearly established and outlined,and can’t be changed to sunday. I will add a counter to my question for your edification:Colossians 2:16King James Version (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We don’t really know what exactly that means either,but the wording looks good.lol

So,was it ok for Christians to change the day of rest for the reasons given? Personally,I think if god rested on the sabbath,it would be best to follow his example. I think a lot of Christians don’t think about this much.Confusion

1004

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
So,most christians defile the Sabbath. Most christian preacher teach tithing 10% of your earnings to the church. This is taught no where in the new testament,for the gentile christians. Is it ok to give 10% to the church? Of course! is it ok to teach that god commands it for new testament christians,no,because it is a lie. Confusion[/quote]

This is a non sequitur. Christians do not ‘defile’ the Sabbath, we celebrate it on Sunday rather than Saturday.
The idea of tithing came from Genesis as well as mentioned as part of Mosaic Law. Tithing is a recommendation based on the action of Abraham and his tithing to Melchizedek. And while some Christian ministers take the idea of tithing way to far. As a Christian, it is important to tithe, but it’s not a requirement to give it all to the Church. Tithing is part of the Christian mission, to provide for the poor the help people in the various ways in which people need help as well as support for the Church.
Christians, even modern Judaism is not beholden to Mosaic Law as it was the constitution for a people and a country at a particular time and place in history. The Torah is part of our history, it’s important to know, but is not applicable in many instances. For instance, the rules for the Tent of Meeting and law regarding the Arc, are no longer applicable. There is no Arc, or Tent of Meeting hence laws regarding it are not applicable. [/quote]

I am with you. How do you define tithe? This is a leading question Pat,because if you say it is important to tithe 10% according to the the old days because it is a good thing,why not keep the sabbath too. My point is that tithing is nowhere even mentioned in the new testament which is for gentile christians. Confusion

1005

Question: Why do many christians divorce and remarry,when it is clearly forbidden in the new testament?
There are several passages to prove this,but here is one from Jesus himself

Matthew 5:31-32King James Version (KJV)

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

And we know that know adulterer can enter heaven. Will the sex drive put many divorced and remarried Christians in hell?

1006

Question: Where do Christians go when they die? To heaven? Abrahams bosom (and what is that anyway)? That’s what many Christians believe. What does Paul say?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul also says this:
2 Corinthians 5:8King James Version (KJV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where is Jesus? Seated at gods right hand in heaven? In a Christians heart? Confusion

1007

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Varq,

Any thoughts on Panentheism?

I see Push said that your beliefs are Pantheistic. I rarely see Panentheism mentioned, though to me it “makes more sense”. [/quote]

Yes. I would say that if you wanted to put a label on what I believe, panentheism comes pretty damn close. I suppose one could split hairs even further and say that it’s closer still to pandeism or even “panendeism” but whatever. I’ve never much liked labels.

EDIT: I just looked at what I wrote, and it seems terribly curt. Let me give you a more thoughtful reply after I’ve finished training and working. It’s a good question. And I agree, panentheism makes probably more sense than any other ontological philosophy I’ve looked at.

One could argue that, based on the way Obi-wan Kenobi described the Force, that the Jedi religion is panentheistic, too. Which would be pretty badass.[/quote]

Awesome.

1008

Well brothers and sisters,I have brought up a few points that I thought would be challenging and interesting. I am not trying to beat a dead horse,nor offend. I hope at least these things will encourage you to trully seek and understand everything you can about your faith. I will sign off with a few last scriptures:

Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 Corinthians 13:1?13
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of aprophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, bso that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And cthough I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body 1to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

And my favorite:

1 Peter 5:7King James Version (KJV)

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Love eachother and those who need to find God. Live your life in a way that others will want what you have. Good luck in your journey. Confusion

1009

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

  • How was his system nihilistic? Is one automatically a nihilist if they do not believe in a personal God?

[/quote]

You’ve answered it yourself. Yes, not believing in a personal God is automatically nihilistic.

See definition in link above.

Spinoza was a pantheist not a panentheist. Pantheists reject the idea of a personal God. Or at least, all the Pantheists I’ve encountered do including Spinoza.

1010

You know, Confusion, it’s up to you, but you might think about moving all of these questions over to your new “who’s a real Christian” thread. Seems more pertinent there than on the Roe vs. Wade thread. Just a thought.

1011

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You know, Confusion, it’s up to you, but you might think about moving all of these questions over to your new “who’s a real Christian” thread. Seems more pertinent there than on the Roe vs. Wade thread. Just a thought.[/quote]
soumds.good. don’t know how

1012

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You know, Confusion, it’s up to you, but you might think about moving all of these questions over to your new “who’s a real Christian” thread. Seems more pertinent there than on the Roe vs. Wade thread. Just a thought.[/quote]
soumds.good. don’t know how[/quote]

Copy them from this thread and paste them as new posts on your other thread.

1013

ty. Will give it some thought. Not sure its worth it

1014

[quote]pabergin wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
According to the Bible,Adam was not alive until God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,and man became a living soul”. So,it appears that is the requirement for life straight from the scriptures[/quote]

Fun fact:

Both of the words for “soul” in the Hebrew Bible, nepesh and ruach (which correspond to the words psyche and pneuma in the Greek New Testament), both mean “breath”.

So yes, if we are to take the Bible literally, unless you breathe, you don’t have a soul.[/quote]

C’mon man, you can’t conclude that. You can state the fun facts but can’t come up with that fun conclusion.[/quote]

Since God is pure spirit, and his breath refers to the holy spirit, we aren’t exactly talking about respiration.[/quote]

No,where do you get that idea?

1015

I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion

1016

[quote]confusion wrote:
I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion[/quote]

How much do you know about the United States Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, and American history in general? Could you pass the INS citizenship test? Do you follow all of the federal laws? If not, can you really still call yourself an American?

1017

[quote]confusion wrote:
I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion[/quote]

Your posts about the Sabbath reveal that you are unaware of the debate within Christianity about this and the different interpretations. You insist Christians are required to keep the Sabbath. Whether this is true or not, you clearly are not familiar with either side of the argument. Of course, if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath then they would also be required to keep the “Sabbath year”. And if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath, then why not the rest of Mosaic law?

So what did Jesus say? He said God provided the Sabbath for the benefit of man, not the other way around. (Mark 2:27).

And the Council of Jerusalem ruled that Gentiles are not required to observe the Sabbath, get circumcised, observe the dietary laws etc. *

Yet despite this, there are some Christian denominations who disagree and point to the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath himself(Luke 4:16) as did his disciples. But they did not abstain from work on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18).

So, it’s not as simple as you are claiming. It depends on your interpretation. This is true of many of the things you are claiming.

  • Council of Jerusalem:

Colossians 2:16
Romans 14:5-6
Acts 15:28-29

You have merely chosen the least common interpretation and you are insisting that’s the only interpretation.

1018

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion[/quote]

Your posts about the Sabbath reveal that you are unaware of the debate within Christianity about this and the different interpretations. You insist Christians are required to keep the Sabbath. Whether this is true or not, you clearly are not familiar with either side of the argument. Of course, if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath then they would also be required to keep the “Sabbath year”. And if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath, then why not the rest of Mosaic law?

So what did Jesus say? He said God provided the Sabbath for the benefit of man, not the other way around. (Mark 2:27).

And the Council of Jerusalem ruled that Gentiles are not required to observe the Sabbath, get circumcised, observe the dietary laws etc. *

Yet despite this, there are some Christian denominations who disagree and point to the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath himself(Luke 4:16) as did his disciples. But they did not abstain from work on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18).

So, it’s not as simple as you are claiming. It depends on your interpretation. This is true of many of the things you are claiming.

  • Council of Jerusalem:

Colossians 2:16
Romans 14:5-6
Acts 15:28-29

You have merely chosen the least common interpretation and you are insisting that’s the only interpretation.
[/quote]

I am percectly aware of the debate within Christianity. I am pointing to the fact that many Christians don’t even know they aren’t keeping the 10 commandments Sabbath. I am also familiar with the passage in Acts 15 that talks about cricumcision and keeping the law. As you know,Christians don’t belive not teach that the 4 things recommended are all they need as guidance,so why use that as part of your argument? And the passage in Mark is not talking about it being ok not to keep the sabbath,as you also know,so why quote that out of context also? Isn’t this the very thing you are accusing me of?

1019

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion[/quote]

How much do you know about the United States Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, and American history in general? Could you pass the INS citizenship test? Do you follow all of the federal laws? If not, can you really still call yourself an American?[/quote]

yes. Your argument,however doesn’t apply,although I could easy imagine a christian saying this. and is the type of thing that convinces me many Christains don’t REALLY believe in God. If someone trully believed that the knowledge they needed to live forever and avoid HELL were in a book,wouldn’t they know EVERYTHING they could about that book and apply it to every part of their life possible? Confusion

1020

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:
I sincerely believe that many “Christians” do not want to live what the new testament teaches. Some hardly know what it teaches. Also,when presented with scripture,that contradicts the ideas they hold,rather than open their mind and try to trully understand,they have a knee jerk reaction. They immediately begin to argue their case. As I have said prior,I don’t feel you can pick and choose the things you want from the Bible and call yourself a Christian.

This is the reason most Christians will not accept gays,scripture teaches against it. They will however accept divorce and remarriage,which is clearly taught against also. A ,“Christian” just may be able to learn something from an athiest after all. Especially one who isn’t a tree hugging,gun hating,abortion preaching,politically correct pussy,or Christian hating asshole. Confusion[/quote]

Your posts about the Sabbath reveal that you are unaware of the debate within Christianity about this and the different interpretations. You insist Christians are required to keep the Sabbath. Whether this is true or not, you clearly are not familiar with either side of the argument. Of course, if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath then they would also be required to keep the “Sabbath year”. And if Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath, then why not the rest of Mosaic law?

So what did Jesus say? He said God provided the Sabbath for the benefit of man, not the other way around. (Mark 2:27).

And the Council of Jerusalem ruled that Gentiles are not required to observe the Sabbath, get circumcised, observe the dietary laws etc. *

Yet despite this, there are some Christian denominations who disagree and point to the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath himself(Luke 4:16) as did his disciples. But they did not abstain from work on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18).

So, it’s not as simple as you are claiming. It depends on your interpretation. This is true of many of the things you are claiming.

  • Council of Jerusalem:

Colossians 2:16
Romans 14:5-6
Acts 15:28-29

You have merely chosen the least common interpretation and you are insisting that’s the only interpretation.
[/quote]

I am perfectly aware of the debate within Christianity. I am pointing to the fact that many Christians don’t even know they aren’t keeping the 10 commandments Sabbath. I am also familiar with the passage in Acts 15 that talks about cricumcision and keeping the law. As you know,Christians don’t belive not teach that the 4 things recommended are all they need as guidance,so why use that as part of your argument? And the passage in Mark is not talking about it being ok not to keep the sabbath,as you also know,so why quote that out of context also? Isn’t this the very thing you are accusing me of?