Roe v. Wade: 42 Years in the Past

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Here’s another thought exercise.

In vitro fertilisation results in the fertilisation of a multitude of eggs, not just one.

Every one of those embryos is, by definition, a living human.

If only one of those embryos is implanted, what happens to the others, and should we care? Why or why not?
[/quote]
They are frozen, discarded, or used for research.

Of course you should care. Depriving an embryo of a womb is morally no different than depriving an infant of his mother’s milk or a bottle of formula.

[quote]
Should in vitro fertilisation be banned because it results in the wholesale slaughter of innocent human lives?[/quote]
Banned by whom?

203

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t know the answer. I have to think about it. [/quote]

While you’re thinking, think also about the alternative.

204

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another thought exercise:

If a couple conceives via In vitro fertilisation, but has to use a surrogate mother, does the surrogate mother have a right abort the baby if she so chooses? [/quote]

No.
[/quote]

Under current law doesn’t the surrogate have this right? Further, wouldn’t restricting abortion in this case be restricting a woman’s right to make choices regarding her body?
[/quote]

Current which law? There are no federal laws on surrogacy, and they vary from state to state.

But presumably the surrogate signed a contract which obligates her to carry the baby to term. Under the conditions of that contract, she does not have the right to terminate the pregnancy.[/quote]

Current abortion law (per Roe vs. Wade). Even if she signs a contract can she be legal required (forced) to carry to term? Under current law I don’t think so, but admittedly I’m not sure.

If I sign a contract that makes me a slave (why would I…) and then realize it sucks can I break that contract? If yes, what would be the consequences? I say nothing because slavery is illegal. Point being abortion is legal per Roe vs. Wade largely because of the woman’s right to make choices regarding her body. So couldn’t a surrogate abort the fetus she is hosting without consequence (breech of contract)? My question is should it be legal for her to do so?

205

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t know the answer. I have to think about it. [/quote]

While you’re thinking, think also about the alternative.[/quote]

The creation of a new pornstar to pay the bills :wink:

*For those that don’t know Octomom was in a porno, uggg…

206

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

*For those that don’t know Octomom was in a porno, uggg…[/quote]

Was it worth googling?

207

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I say nothing because slavery is illegal.[/quote]

IIRC from my HS business law class (15 years ago) you can not create a contract that is in and of itself illegal. It’s the L in the whole RC COLA thing… (It’s amazing what you remember)

208

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

*For those that don’t know Octomom was in a porno, uggg…[/quote]

Was it worth googling?[/quote]

I honestly don’t remember if I even saw it. Probably not would be my guess.

209

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Maybe because science has yet to prove the origins of man.

[/quote]

The truth is out there, Marine.[/quote]

You seem so…so…sure, soldier.[/quote]

Aren’t you sure that the truth is out there?
[/quote]

Our surety is based on our faith, no?[/quote]

I am sure that truth is out there, waiting to be found. That’s curiosity.
You are sure that truth has already been found and is in your possession. That’s faith.

210

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Abortion is simply the execution of a human being. An innocent one at that. [/quote]

This.

I have much more respect for the Pro-aborts that actually admit this. [/quote]

I do too. I would rather they admit it’s killing and be ok with it than pretend some alternate reality of the facts.[/quote]

Well, then, you should love this article. Enjoy.

I stopped reading at:
“All life is not equal.”

What the fuck? The slippery slope that introduces would cause a land slide of biblical proportions.

211

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I say nothing because slavery is illegal.[/quote]

IIRC from my HS business law class (15 years ago) you can not create a contract that is in and of itself illegal. It’s the L in the whole RC COLA thing… (It’s amazing what you remember)[/quote]

Under the 13th Amendment slavery IS legal, as punishment for a crime.

212

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I say nothing because slavery is illegal.[/quote]

IIRC from my HS business law class (15 years ago) you can not create a contract that is in and of itself illegal. It’s the L in the whole RC COLA thing… (It’s amazing what you remember)[/quote]

Under the 13th Amendment slavery IS legal, as punishment for a crime.[/quote]

As punishment for a crime, yes. You can not, from my understanding, become a slave contractually though. In reference to the in Vitro scenario would “slavery” as punishment for breach of contract be acceptable under the the 8th amendment?

213

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another thought exercise:

If a couple conceives via In vitro fertilisation, but has to use a surrogate mother, does the surrogate mother have a right abort the baby if she so chooses? [/quote]

No.
[/quote]

Under current law doesn’t the surrogate have this right? Further, wouldn’t restricting abortion in this case be restricting a woman’s right to make choices regarding her body?
[/quote]

Current which law? There are no federal laws on surrogacy, and they vary from state to state.

But presumably the surrogate signed a contract which obligates her to carry the baby to term. Under the conditions of that contract, she does not have the right to terminate the pregnancy.[/quote]

Current abortion law (per Roe vs. Wade). Even if she signs a contract can she be legal required (forced) to carry to term? Under current law I don’t think so, but admittedly I’m not sure.

If I sign a contract that makes me a slave (why would I…) and then realize it sucks can I break that contract? If yes, what would be the consequences? I say nothing because slavery is illegal. Point being abortion is legal per Roe vs. Wade largely because of the woman’s right to make choices regarding her body. So couldn’t a surrogate abort the fetus she is hosting without consequence (breech of contract)? My question is should it be legal for her to do so? [/quote]

If she is a gestational surrogate, then the fetus is not biologically hers at all (contrast with a traditional surrogate, who is artificially inseminated with the husband’s sperm, but the egg is hers). She is just the incubator. So inasmuch as a man who punches a pregnant woman and kills the fetus can be tried for murder, so too should a surrogate who terminates another woman’s baby (even if it is in her own uterus) be liable not only for breach of contract, but also perhaps manslaughter.

214

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I say nothing because slavery is illegal.[/quote]

IIRC from my HS business law class (15 years ago) you can not create a contract that is in and of itself illegal. It’s the L in the whole RC COLA thing… (It’s amazing what you remember)[/quote]

Under the 13th Amendment slavery IS legal, as punishment for a crime.[/quote]

As punishment for a crime, yes. You can not, from my understanding, become a slave contractually though. In reference to the in Vitro scenario would “slavery” as punishment for breach of contract be acceptable under the the 8th amendment? [/quote]

Contract “rights” are not the same as, or on par with, for example, con-law rights, and the breach of contract rights generally gives rise to only really shitty remedies in any event.

215

[quote]pat wrote:

I stopped reading at:
“All life is not equal.”

What the fuck? The slippery slope that introduces would cause a land slide of biblical proportions. [/quote]

The same party: slavery, Jim Crow and Abortion.

Fun fact, black babies are exponentially more likely to end in abortion.

216

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another thought exercise:

If a couple conceives via In vitro fertilisation, but has to use a surrogate mother, does the surrogate mother have a right abort the baby if she so chooses? [/quote]

No.
[/quote]

Under current law doesn’t the surrogate have this right? Further, wouldn’t restricting abortion in this case be restricting a woman’s right to make choices regarding her body?
[/quote]

Current which law? There are no federal laws on surrogacy, and they vary from state to state.

But presumably the surrogate signed a contract which obligates her to carry the baby to term. Under the conditions of that contract, she does not have the right to terminate the pregnancy.[/quote]

Current abortion law (per Roe vs. Wade). Even if she signs a contract can she be legal required (forced) to carry to term? Under current law I don’t think so, but admittedly I’m not sure.

If I sign a contract that makes me a slave (why would I…) and then realize it sucks can I break that contract? If yes, what would be the consequences? I say nothing because slavery is illegal. Point being abortion is legal per Roe vs. Wade largely because of the woman’s right to make choices regarding her body. So couldn’t a surrogate abort the fetus she is hosting without consequence (breech of contract)? My question is should it be legal for her to do so? [/quote]

If she is a gestational surrogate, then the fetus is not biologically hers at all (contrast with a traditional surrogate, who is artificially inseminated with the husband’s sperm, but the egg is hers). She is just the incubator. [/quote]

Sure, I understand that.

[quote]
So inasmuch as a man who punches a pregnant woman and kills the fetus can be tried for murder, so too should a surrogate who terminates another woman’s baby (even if it is in her own uterus) be liable not only for breach of contract, but also perhaps manslaughter. [/quote]

Is this your opinion or are you basing this on something else? FWIW I agree with you; however, she may be just an incubator, but the line of reasoning, which I whole heartily disagree with, that the fetus/surrogate (or mother) is a parasitic/host relationship, under current law, should allow the surrogate, legally, to abort the baby. It is using her resources to survive.

My over all point is that it is still her body and if, “her body, her choice,” is why abortion is legal (Roe vs. Wade) then a surrogate should be able to abort.

I 100% disagree that she should be able to in this case.

217

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I say nothing because slavery is illegal.[/quote]

IIRC from my HS business law class (15 years ago) you can not create a contract that is in and of itself illegal. It’s the L in the whole RC COLA thing… (It’s amazing what you remember)[/quote]

Under the 13th Amendment slavery IS legal, as punishment for a crime.[/quote]

As punishment for a crime, yes. You can not, from my understanding, become a slave contractually though. In reference to the in Vitro scenario would “slavery” as punishment for breach of contract be acceptable under the the 8th amendment? [/quote]

Contract “rights” are not the same as, or on par with, for example, con-law rights, and the breach of contract rights generally gives rise to only really shitty remedies in any event.
[/quote]

That’s what I thought, but am certainly no expert in anything related to any law.

218

[quote]pushharder wrote:
She KNOWS the other reasons don’t hold water. She KNOWS it.

[/quote]

Yup, and she doesn’t give a fuck.

I respect her “bravery” for lack of a better word. Her ideas are shit, but at least she calls a spade a spade.

219

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

If only one of those embryos is implanted, what happens to the others, and should we care? Why or why not?[/quote]

Should we care? Yeah. However, if you want to fuck with nature and try and out-smart it, you tend to have to play nature’s game.

I told my wife I would never do this, or take fertility drugs. If we couldn’t get babies the old fashion way, lots (or at least a little) practice, I was okay without anymore.

No. Making shit against the law does prevent it.

How about we just get better at the technique. I mean we’ll end up full on Huxley, but shit… We’ve got 1984, why not?