@jack1991
Whatever you hope you’ll get out of an over-the-counter substance it’ll likely be 10x less effective than that.
It’s common for counties outside the US to be clueless, there is no evolution of medicine outside the US and is common for doctors to blame mental problems and say it’s in your head, because they have a complete lack of understanding that while levels are normal, within ranges is not necessarily healthy.
Normal you say, normal changes every 10 years, 10 years ago men born had higher testosterone than now, every 10 years men are ending up with lower and lower hormone levels. In fact in the last 10 years doctors are seeing an alarming number of men all ages and not just 50 year old men with lower than normal testosterone and now the reference ranges have been lowered to reflect it.
The reference ranges in the beginning of 2017 was 348-1197 ng/dL, later that year it was changed to 264-916 ng/dL, in 10 more years the reference range will be lowered yet again, and again and again until men are no longer behaving like men and then we are all doomed.
By then the age of man is over unless we do something and quit playing games and except normal is unacceptable and we should strive for optimal.
Hey there,
I have ordered another set of labs.
Here are the results:
TSH : 3,580 mU/l 0,4-4
fT4 : 13 pmol/l 11,5 - 22,7
fT3 : 3,7 pmol/l 2,6 - 5,7
S_SHBG : 20,6 nmol/l 16,2 - 68,5
E2: 186,2 pmol/l 0 - 172 elevated
TST: 11,8 nmol/l 6, 073 - 27,1
Prolactin: 14,4 ug/l 2,64 - 13,13 elevated
SHBG: 20,6 nmol/l 16,2 - 68,5
I am still on 10mg cipralex (morning), Mirtazapine (7,5 mg). I am stabilized and have been going to work for the second week.
Still very tired, concentration improved (thank god, as I am a teacher.). Lethargic, nothing excites me, but it is improving a little bit. No spontaneus erections and when I really try I have a hard on, but there is now way to release my stack.
Elevated estrogen is probably from AI’s and prolactin maybe because I masturbated a bit in the previous evening. TSH is incredibly hig despite suplementing Aschwagavandha and Damiana leaf. Both fT3/4 are in mid ranges, so the reason as @systemlord said for elevated TSH is probably elevated rT3.
TST suprisingly is a bit higher then before, maybe because E2 higher. I thought that having SSRI
My SHBG is very low so I guess if I choose a route of TRT I really need a tiny doses ED?
Concerning my TSH I would buy T3 but at what dosage should I start, hmm?
What about SSRI meds, I would really like to try TRT route and T3 meds to optimize my hormones, but honetly I don’t know if I can get rid of those meds at the moment.
Do you think that I can start TRT without dumping the SSRI meds in the first place? I would like to get on TRT and T3 and after/If I ever see the benefits, I would slowly taper of the drugs. What do you think?
Also I would inject 15 mg ED (that would be 105mg) SUBQ, I really don’t want to increase my anxiety, so I would start slow (I can’t afford to be another month away from work.) Or where would you start on the person who is prone to anxiety?
How much T3 should I start to take?
What supplements would you recommend? I take Vit D (6000 IU), Damiana powder (5g), Aschwagavanda (5g).
Thank you very much for your responses.
TSH is pretty high. ft4 is on the low end, ft3 is middle of the road… most people feel best with ft3 on the high end of normal. I’d try a t3/t4 med like Armour and see how that does. I wouldn’t do a t3 only med. It gets used up pretty fast so you have to dose often for it to work (like, several times a day)
Probably. I’d try something like 20mg/day to start with. Or maybe every other day, something like that. You can use a 29 or 30G needle, shallow IM, it isn’t bad.
OR, if you can find a doc that will prescribe a 20% compounded cream, you can just apply that 2x a day and not have to worry about injections. This isn’t super common but a few of the telemedicine clinics do offer it (Defy)
I’d try Armour, not sure on dosage to be honest. Hopefully someone else can help. I know people typically increase until they feel good then back down if they have hyperthyroid symptoms.
I think changing too many things at once is a mistake… I think long term you should try to get off the SSRI’s, but not immediately when starting TRT. Add TRT or Thyroid first, then the other, then if you’re feeling like you don’t need the SSRI’s then start tapering on those.
A lot of people have no issues getting off of them once they feel better from fixing their hormone issues. Again, I’d consider a t3/t4 med, not just straight t3.
Yeah, 15-20mg a day wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Cream would also be worth considering (note: NOT gel. Gel is like 2% T and creams can go up to 20%… so, much stronger)
I didn’t see any blood results for total T and Free T. Did I miss those?
I like simple. I’d try not to add a bunch of things at once and just keep it to T or thyroid meds only, then slowly add from there. If there are too many variables then it’s very difficult to pinpoint what is causing issues if say you suddenly get anxiety down the road… maybe it was the Ash, maybe it was too much T3, maybe it was too much T… how would you know?
Thank you for your response!
Unfortunately I cant get hands on Armour, because I live in the Czech republic. I can buy only T3 and T4. Do you think I can substitute Armour with these?
Any opinions on dosages, please?
I want to try TRT, so I start 15-20mg ED. You have mentioned shallow IM, where should I inject?
Hello,
A quick update:
I haven’t started my TRT journey yet because @systemlord repeatedly told me to get my thyroid into better levels (TSH, fT3, fT4).
Last blood tests from previous posts:
TSH : 3,580 mU/l 0,4-4
fT4 : 13 pmol/l 11,5 - 22,7
fT3 : 3,7 pmol/l 2,6 - 5,7
S_SHBG : 20,6 nmol/l 16,2 - 68,5
E2: 186,2 pmol/l 0 - 172 elevated
TST: 11,8 nmol/l 6, 073 - 27,1
Prolactin: 14,4 ug/l 2,64 - 13,13 elevated
SHBG: 20,6 nmol/l 16,2 - 68,5
If I decide to do anything about my thyroid and TST I have to do it on my own because the Czech Republic is in stone Age concerning hormone treatment.
I will get hands on test cyp and T3/T4 meds in two or three weeks.
In the mean time I have succesfully started my work as a teacher, I can train 4 - 5 times a week, but it is only on sheer will power. I really dont have much energy and it is frustrating! I constantly have pain from temple to my chest. Sometimes it is horrible, sometimes it is quite good (like today fortunately).
I am still on Mirtazapine 7,5mg before sleeping and 10mg cipralex in the morning. And I really want to be on T + thyroid meds instead of SSRI.
I am trying to improve my TSH naturally: Over the past two weeks I have been taking 900mg of Iodine, 300mg Selenium, B12, B9 and L-Tyrosine (3g ) these suplemments together before breakfast.
After breakfast 5000 IU Vit D, 4 tablets omega acids and 30 mg of Zinc. I stopped with aschwa afer two weeks, because there wasn’t much of an improvement.
What other suplemments would you recommend for better TSH or would you lower or choose higher doses of something (I cant have Iodoral because it is not available in our country)?
Because of my high estrogen, I took 0,5 mg AI on Monday in the evening. After 3 hours I had spontaneus erections after a very long time but next day the pain in the chest was worse. But today it is much better. I’ve read that 1mg of AI lowers E2 by 70% and 0,5mg AI lowers it by 35% I need to lower it to a sweet spot to 90- 95 pmol/l. Should I continue to take AI 0,5mg EOD to atleast reduce E2. Or would you recommend to lower my dose or stop?
I would like to ask if it is better to lower my TSH before jumping on TRT?
I want to do thorough blood test before I take any action. What would you recommend? Everything is out of my pocket.
Mainly I want to ask @josht9210 how did you feel at the beginning of your TRT since you have had similar symptoms (Anxisety, depression etc.). Have you been able to completely taper of Antidepressants? I think that I can’t taper off of it right now. Were you anxiety managable at the beginning, when you started TRT, or did you have to up the dosage during of your antianxiety meds? You hopped on TRT while having TSH 2,8 is it correct? Are you planning to start thyorid meds? Or T and masteron only? Do you have any tips how to wean off 7,5 mg of Mirt (gradually taper and add 5 HPT and melatonin instead?) Opinions of @dextermorgan, @systemlord, @ncsugrad2002, @NH_Watts, @iron_yuppie are more then welcomed.
What dosages of T3 and T4 would you recommend based on my previous labs?
I have two options stay on SSRI for a long, long time or try to educate myself as much as possible and start self- prescribing. I have a legit source fortunately.
stick with the thyroid support plan with iodine, selenium, etc as you mentioned you are doing and quit the AI. Personally, I would stop training all together aside from stretching and walking until you feel more normal. You even say you are getting no joy from it. Given that you come from the bodybuilding world your idea of a workout is skewed towards that of a competitor. You need as little stress as possible. Also, watch the Zinc supplementation if you arent adding copper as well.
The anxiety is tough, up and down, and my depression is sort of only due to my anxiety so when im not anxious its almost non existent.
We all react differently to the hormones though, I’ve had times where I’m like dang I feel good time to ween. Then I feel bad and yo back up. I’m just gonna try and reach a stady trt state before messing with my ssri. I’ve def noticed changes and I wouldn’t be too scared to try it if I were you, my case is pretty severe compared to others.
Starting trt has definitely flared up a bit of hypercondria, If my heart speeds up or I get palps or high bp I get nervious faster. But thats just how I am.
Why are you supplementing iodine?
Thank you very much for your response!
The exact same thing I have been experiencing, my anxiety can put me into downspiral where I end with depression. When there is no anxiety, depression does not exist. I think I have iron will and always very motivated to do things. It’s totally not me and of course I am prone to anxiety but not depression.
I don’t think that every problem is from my hormones, but I crashed totally after my competition so it is tightly connected (mental health and hormones). I ame on SSRI’s for two months only. Is it wise to try to hop on TRT since my hormones are horrible or try to just go with my SSRI’s and take supplements to hopefully improve my hormones naturally? Do you think that TRT will help you to get rid off your SSRI’s for good?
Iam just fucking sick, because I eat healthy (carbs, proteins, healthy fats) but Iam tired, without libido. I want to have normal sex life because I have a girlfriend. What do you think about pregnelone od DHEA supplements? Should I implemen them too? Or just stick to thyroid replenish programme?
Thank you for your response
I feel the need to point out that competitive bodybuilding is not actually healthy. Keep that in mind. The cutting phase especially can do a lot of damage and leave you severely depleted of things that your body needs, as well as tank T production (if you are natural) and skew a lot of numbers. You need to be prepared for that and take the appropriate supplements to offset what you are doing to yourself if you want to avoid suffering for months afterwards. Not being critical of you or the sport, just saying that you need to be aware of how the extreme of contest prep can affect you. Your numbers aren’t too shocking.
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If your numbers are bad I’d start the trt, maybe it will help over the ssri.
You are taking an AI and aren’t even on TRT? The percentages you read about what mg of AI effects your estrogen is total bullshit. I was on 220mg/week T (my testosterone was 2000+) and took 1mg anastrozole and crashed my E2. What you are doing is absolutely wrong and will lead you to feel likely the worst you’ve ever felt. Don’t take the zinc either. My estrogen was over the range before TRT and is more than double the range on TRT. I feel fine.
When you start TRT don’t get on an AI. Give yourself two months before even thinking about it.
I just thougth that based on my last labs I had to take it. I won’t take it again then.
My issue is what should I do first? Should I do TRT first 20mg TST ED (Since my SHBG is 20,01)? Or should I start T3/T4 first? According to systemlord I can expect worsening of the symptoms because my TSH is sitting on 3,5. Or just wait and try to improve mmy TSH naturally and hope that my T raises also?
Josh had 2,8 TSH and hopped on TRT and he seems to be improving in many aspects and even maybe ditches the SSRI’s for good. That’ why I am asking. Also what do you think about Cordyceps? I have read that can also help with the thyroid.
@jack1991
Personally I’d do TRT first.
Thank you for your input.
So do you think that I am subclinical hypothyrioid with TSH 3,588 , fT4 = above mid range , fT3 = above midrange? I’ve read on the STTM web page that healthy thyroid has fT3 and fT4 above midrange and I had theses above midrange. So my thyroid has actually healthy levels and TSH is high because of my anxiety issues? I must add that I have a good job, supporting GF and don’t have to be nervous about almost anything. That is really bugging me.
There’s a contradiction going on, TSH is elevated and yet free thyroid hormone appear good. You previously had TSH at 4.390, that’s terrible and I see no rT3 testing, elevated rT3 can block fT3, if this is the case good fT3 levels are meaningless.
Well,
what I don’t know is that if i am subclinical hypothyroid, or if the TSH is only elevated because I experience some everyday stressors that all people experience. Nothing major though, today I had for example cup of coffee with two spoons of sugar and one spoon of honey and I felt somehow energised and felt rush of Adrenaline and I am tense inside me.
I am currently finding lab which test rT3 cause it is nearly impossible in the Czech Republic.
rT3 can be elevated because of starvation diet (done that for the BB show), insufficient vitamins, minerals, low testosterone (caused that for BB show) or prolonged stress physical/emotional (some anxiety issues). Can be rT3 somehow calculated?
If it is elevated ,than there is something going on with my adrenals too (High/Low cortisol)
How can I lower my supposedly high rT3? Check ferritin and other 3 labs? Do the 4 point saliva test and treat my corstisol or try trail of T3 (Cytomel)?
What do you think @systemlord. Thak you very much for answer.
TSH is high so it could be that the body wants more.
Regardless doesn’t matter if we aren’t taking it for a reason.