[quote]Sloth wrote:
Beneficial to the family? We’re talking about people consenting to the arrangement. As far as children, I’m still confused. Are you saying those with polygamy orientation might be prone to child abuse/molestation?[/quote]
Just because people consent to an arrangement doesn’t mean it is going to benefit them and society.
I have no idea whether or not child abuse/molestation is higher in polygamous unions. As I said, the question should be scientifically evaluated and if it does prove damaging to children it should be disallowed.
[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Uh, no I’m not. I’m arguing for it based on the principle of governmental non-discrimination. Get it yet?
You said:
Mohammed married a six year old, and it would be descriminatory not to allow Muslims to follow his example, as they do under shari’ah law.
If the historical precedent of Mohammed’s marriage is irrelevant, why did you bring it up?[/quote]
Because Muslims base their behavior on the behavior of Mohammed, and if we don’t want to discriminate against them, we have to allow them to behave as Mohammed.
Would that polygamous marriage be a joint contract between all the participants or would there be a central figure to whom others are individually married?
Can I marry Sue who is already married to Bob and then marry Helen who is married to Steve? Aren’t we supposed to live in the same houshold? What if I don’t want to have Bob and Steve in my house, since I’m not married to them? Can I throw them out?
I thought we just agreed that historical precedence doesn’t justify current practice. So why are you promoting Muslim beliefs about marriage, when those beliefs are derived from historical precedence?
[quote]forlife wrote:
I thought we just agreed that historical precedence doesn’t justify current practice. So why are you promoting Muslim beliefs about marriage, when those beliefs are derived from historical precedence?[/quote]
Because I’m arguing against discrimination, to stop the H8. The Muslims have a right to their beliefs, and you’re a bigot if you won’t allow them to live by their own standards.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Just because people consent to an arrangement doesn’t mean it is going to benefit them and society.[/quote]
Or, it might benefit them. I don’t even understand this as a possible objection. An abusive and alduterous traditional marriage doesn’t benefit society, but we don’t ban traditional marriages to prevent bad marriages from happening.
[quote]
I have no idea whether or not child abuse/molestation is higher in polygamous unions. As I said, the question should be scientifically evaluated and if it does prove damaging to children it should be disallowed.[/quote]
Would we outlaw single or married parents, if one or the other had higher instances of abuse and/molestation? Are the polygamy oreintated inheriantely child molesters or not? If not, how can we object?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
forlife wrote:
Just because people consent to an arrangement doesn’t mean it is going to benefit them and society.
Or, it might benefit them. I don’t even understand this as a possible objection. An abusive and alduterous traditional marriage doesn’t benefit society, but we don’t ban traditional marriages to prevent bad marriages from happening.
I have no idea whether or not child abuse/molestation is higher in polygamous unions. As I said, the question should be scientifically evaluated and if it does prove damaging to children it should be disallowed.
Would we outlaw single or married parents, if one or the other had higher instances of abuse and/molestation? Are the polygamy oreintated inheriantely child molesters or not? If not, how can we object?
[/quote]
This is a great thread. I love using all of forlife’s very same arguments against him.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Because I’m arguing against discrimination, to stop the H8. The Muslims have a right to their beliefs, and you’re a bigot if you won’t allow them to live by their own standards. [/quote]
Muslims should be able to do whatever they like, as long as it isn’t harmful to society. Are you suggesting otherwise in your sarcastic vein?
[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Because I’m arguing against discrimination, to stop the H8. The Muslims have a right to their beliefs, and you’re a bigot if you won’t allow them to live by their own standards.
Muslims should be able to do whatever they like, as long as it isn’t harmful to society. Are you suggesting otherwise in your sarcastic vein?
[/quote]
Who decides what’s harmful? What’s more, how do you know that their definition of marriage isn’t harmful to our society as it currently is?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
An abusive and alduterous traditional marriage doesn’t benefit society, but we don’t ban traditional marriages to prevent bad marriages from happening.[/quote]
That’s true, but traditional marriage is not inherently damaging to society. If the relationship is inherently damaging by its nature, it should not be allowed. Otherwise, if nobody is hurt, why would you oppose it?
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Who decides what’s harmful? What’s more, how do you know that their definition of marriage isn’t harmful to our society as it currently is? [/quote]
The medical and mental health organizations conduct research using standard health measures, comparing the target group to the general population. It’s not rocket science.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
An abusive and alduterous traditional marriage doesn’t benefit society, but we don’t ban traditional marriages to prevent bad marriages from happening.
That’s true, but traditional marriage is not inherently damaging to society. If the relationship is inherently damaging by its nature, it should not be allowed. Otherwise, if nobody is hurt, why would you oppose it?[/quote]
Are you saying all Polygamous marriages are damaging to those consenting to be involved?
[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Who decides what’s harmful? What’s more, how do you know that their definition of marriage isn’t harmful to our society as it currently is?
The medical and mental health organizations conduct research using standard health measures, comparing the target group to the general population. It’s not rocket science.
[/quote]
Well, that would involve legalizing such behavior first, studying it, and then overturning the legislation later. Good idea. Let’s legalize marriages to six year olds on a provisional basis until the APA determines whether or not such arrangements are harmful. Of course, if they are “harmful,” you still have to discriminate against the Muslims when you overturn the legislation at the later date. And as you’ve been arguing for quite some time now, discrimination is Bad, equal rights are Good, even if they involve changing a long-standing definition. That places you in quite a bind.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Are you saying all Polygamous marriages are damaging to those consenting to be involved? [/quote]
How many times do I need to repeat this before it sinks in?
I have no idea whether or not polygamous marriages are inherently damaging to those consenting to be involved. Let the medical and mental health organizations do the research and draw scientific conclusions accordingly.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Well, that would involve legalizing such behavior first, studying it, and then overturning the legislation later. Good idea. Let’s legalize marriages to six year olds on a provisional basis until the APA determines whether or not such arrangements are harmful. Of course, if they are “harmful,” you still have to discriminate against the Muslims when you overturn the legislation at the later date. And as you’ve been arguing for quite some time now, discrimination is Bad, equal rights are Good, even if they involve changing a long-standing definition. That places you in quite a bind. [/quote]
Wrong, because some institutions like polygamy are already legal in certain countries and can be objectively studied without needing to make it legal everywhere.
On child marriage, the medical and mental health organizations have already determined that underage sex can be damaging to the child.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Are you saying all Polygamous marriages are damaging to those consenting to be involved?
How many times do I need to repeat this before it sinks in?
I have no idea whether or not polygamous marriages are inherently damaging to those consenting to be involved. Let the medical and mental health organizations do the research and draw scientific conclusions accordingly.
[/quote]
Huh? We’re talking about consenting adults in a country where divorce is legal! The individual can decide if they’re in a damaging relationship, just like a hetero (and in the future I guess, homo) relationship.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Are you saying all Polygamous marriages are damaging to those consenting to be involved?
How many times do I need to repeat this before it sinks in?
I have no idea whether or not polygamous marriages are inherently damaging to those consenting to be involved. Let the medical and mental health organizations do the research and draw scientific conclusions accordingly.
Huh? We’re talking about consenting adults in a country where divorce is legal! The individual can decide if they’re in a damaging relationship, just like a hetero (and in the future I guess, homo) relationship. [/quote]