Reparations for Slavery..

For the most part, you would see no change at all, at least financially. The type of people that would benefit long-term from a windfall generally already know how to earn and use money. So the black people who know how to make money would have more of it, and the ones who don’t would have more stuff or a temporary increase in luxuries before going back to the way they were before.

This doesn’t apply only to black people, of course, but to everybody.

If you redistributed all the money in the country so that everyone had an equal amount, it wouldn’t be long before it was pretty much in the same hands it’s in now.

I can’t remember where I read that, but it certainly rings true. People who lack either the right personality or the knowledge to be well-off will be broke no matter how much money they are given, and people who know how to get rich will do it over and over no matter how much you take from them (though they’ll eventually also figure out a way to get you to stop taking).

In the long term, the experience of making your own money is worth much more than the money itself.

[quote]Totenkopf wrote:
Before we even consider giving giving blacks any kind of Reparations lets help out the people that have been royally fucked by the the United States government since day one. The Native Americans. And No,Reservations doesn’t count. It doesn’t even really scratch the surface.[/quote]

A reservation? A piece of shit parcel of land nobody wanted? Ever since its birth there has been nothing but pain, theft, rape, destruction, and freedom for the predominantly white elite. It’s Manifest Destiny boys. I think the African slaves and the Native Americans have got an equal portions of the shaft. They both have witnessed the rape, the destruction of their cultures, and mass murder of their people. It’s American History 101.

can western civilization get reparations for ENDING slavery??

Cos last I checked we weren’t the first to take advantage of it…and its still going on today.

It would be nice if we got some credit for that…just saying.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
Here are my two cents, Blacks started slavery in africa.It was only our ancestors who brought it here.

Secondly, Do any of you think Jews and pols have or do ask for reparations in germany.I bet they dont.

Well, here are my three cents.

The first slaves, and the first slave-owners, may have had dark skin, but they weren’t what we would think of as "blacks, " and it was probably in what is now Iraq, not Africa.

As soon as humans invented agriculture and the beginnings of civilization (in the Tigris and Euphrates valley), a bunch of men got together, grabbed a bunch of pointy sticks, then went off to a neighboring village, captured a bunch of people, brought them back and forced them to work in the fields for them.

By the way, you know where we get the word “slave?” From the Latin word sclava, which means Slav. In other words, the predominant race of people enslaved during the time of the Romans were Slavic people. Which, you may have noticed, are generally white.

Slavery is as old as humanity. Everyone has enslaved someone, at some time or another, just as everyone has been enslaved by someone at some time or another. Therefore, talk of reparations for slavery is ridiculous: everyone would be owed, and everyone would owe.
[/quote]

Yes that’s fine and dandy but one thing that both of you forgot to mention. The biggest difference between all other forms of slavery. The factor that not even 50 years ago was still common place in the good old United States of American the land of the free. The race factor. The institution was founded on this and became accepted because of the imaginary differences between the races. Negros were “naturally” built to be laborers. They were inferior in every aspect and their only purpose was to be servants to their masters. To the point that certain methods were created to break the will of a human being. There’s no other place on planet Earth that boasts such a rich history regarding the continual oppression of people of color than our nation. This is a blemish upon the face of the union that will never be washed off. I’m prepared to defend this statement.

[quote]Ren wrote:
can western civilization get reparations for ENDING slavery??

Cos last I checked we weren’t the first to take advantage of it…and its still going on today.

It would be nice if we got some credit for that…just saying.[/quote]

Word.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
horsepuss wrote:
Here are my two cents, Blacks started slavery in africa.It was only our ancestors who brought it here.

Secondly, Do any of you think Jews and pols have or do ask for reparations in germany.I bet they dont.

Well, here are my three cents.

The first slaves, and the first slave-owners, may have had dark skin, but they weren’t what we would think of as "blacks, " and it was probably in what is now Iraq, not Africa.

As soon as humans invented agriculture and the beginnings of civilization (in the Tigris and Euphrates valley), a bunch of men got together, grabbed a bunch of pointy sticks, then went off to a neighboring village, captured a bunch of people, brought them back and forced them to work in the fields for them.

By the way, you know where we get the word “slave?” From the Latin word sclava, which means Slav. In other words, the predominant race of people enslaved during the time of the Romans were Slavic people. Which, you may have noticed, are generally white.

Slavery is as old as humanity. Everyone has enslaved someone, at some time or another, just as everyone has been enslaved by someone at some time or another. Therefore, talk of reparations for slavery is ridiculous: everyone would be owed, and everyone would owe.

Yes that’s fine and dandy but one thing that both of you forgot to mention. The biggest difference between all other forms of slavery. The factor that not even 50 years ago was still common place in the good old United States of American the land of the free. The race factor. The institution was founded on this and became accepted because of the imaginary differences between the races. Negros were “naturally” built to be laborers. They were inferior in every aspect and their only purpose was to be servants to their masters. To the point that certain methods were created to break the will of a human being. There’s no other place on planet Earth that boasts such a rich history regarding the continual oppression of people of color than our nation. This is a blemish upon the face of the union that will never be washed off. I’m prepared to defend this statement. [/quote]

Now that is quite a big claim, compared to f.E Egypt, that was practically built on slavery, or Rome, or the Greek city states, or oriental despoties were everyone but the emperor practically was a slave…

You could easily argue the opposite, that Americans needed the difference in skin color because they had a much harder time bullshitting themselves. Or that the fact that they even needed to bullshit themselves makes them infinitely more civilized.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Ren wrote:
can western civilization get reparations for ENDING slavery??

Cos last I checked we weren’t the first to take advantage of it…and its still going on today.

It would be nice if we got some credit for that…just saying.

Word.[/quote]

True, the whole reparations thing is silly. how about how the immigrant coal miners were treated? Ever hear of a company town or store?

Also, part of the drive behind ending slavery was OMG! christians!

[quote]orion wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Now that is quite a big claim, compared to f.E Egypt, that was practically built on slavery, or Rome, or the Greek city states, or oriental despoties were everyone but the emperor practically was a slave…

You could easily argue the opposite, that Americans needed the difference in skin color because they had a much harder time bullshitting themselves. Or that the fact that they even needed to bullshit themselves makes them infinitely more civilized.
[/quote]

According to what I was taught, slavery in the examples that you have given were a mix of debt imposed slavery, (you me alot so now you’re my servant) punishment for a crime committed, or a prisoner of war sentenced to slavery. Those are the few that come to the top of my head I’m sure there was other methods of acquiring slavehood. The slaves that built the pyramids in Egypt were well fed and housed. The slaves of the Aztecs also shared the same treatment. They were bound individually to slavery. Which means their children weren’t born into slavery. If mistreatment was brought before a court the slave could be set free. The slave could also buy their freedom. In all these cultures there was a pathway to freedom.

From what I understood from your post is that the American slaves had infinitely more civilized treatment. I’m not attacking you. I might be completely off. If this was in fact your meaning then I can’t help but completely disagree with that position. How is castrating the “bull” negros in order to control their breeding civilized? How is branding a child with your initials civilized? How is skinning an uppity “n*****” alive in front of the rest of the slaves in order to instill fear into their souls and never consider running away civilized? How is raping a woman because she’s your property civilized? How is breaking a grown man by whipping him and calling him a “boy” civilized? NOT ONE aspect of the American slavery was civilized. Sure, I’ll acknowledge the probability of the occasional kind master but to compare this evil to other forms in the ancient world is absurd.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Yes that’s fine and dandy but one thing that both of you forgot to mention. The biggest difference between all other forms of slavery. The factor that not even 50 years ago was still common place in the good old United States of American the land of the free. The race factor. The institution was founded on this and became accepted because of the imaginary differences between the races. Negros were “naturally” built to be laborers. They were inferior in every aspect and their only purpose was to be servants to their masters. To the point that certain methods were created to break the will of a human being. There’s no other place on planet Earth that boasts such a rich history regarding the continual oppression of people of color than our nation. This is a blemish upon the face of the union that will never be washed off. I’m prepared to defend this statement. [/quote]

Orion beat me to it.

Everything you said about Negroes in 18th and 19th-century America (naturally inferior, built to be laborers, etc.) could have been (and most probably was) said about Nubians in Egypt, Babylon, Israel, Greece, or Rome.

Nubians were enslaved centuries longer in these civilizations than East Africans were enslaved in the New World, and conditions were many, many times worse. Slaves were worked to death in quarries and mines, and a man had every right to beat his slave to death if he so chose.

And as an aside, the Romans and the Greeks considered their societies (with massive disparities among classes along with prevalent chattel slavery) to be every bit as “free” as we now consider ours to be.

The tendency to think of America and the American experience as somehow unique and special (known as “exceptionalism”), for both good and ill, is one of the more endearing qualities of Americans, but a cursory examination of history will show that it just ain’t so. As they say in Hollywood, it’s been done.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
orion wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Now that is quite a big claim, compared to f.E Egypt, that was practically built on slavery, or Rome, or the Greek city states, or oriental despoties were everyone but the emperor practically was a slave…

You could easily argue the opposite, that Americans needed the difference in skin color because they had a much harder time bullshitting themselves. Or that the fact that they even needed to bullshit themselves makes them infinitely more civilized.

According to what I was taught, slavery in the examples that you have given were a mix of debt imposed slavery, (you me alot so now you’re my servant) punishment for a crime committed, or a prisoner of war sentenced to slavery. Those are the few that come to the top of my head I’m sure there was other methods of acquiring slavehood. The slaves that built the pyramids in Egypt were well fed and housed. The slaves of the Aztecs also shared the same treatment. They were bound individually to slavery. Which means their children weren’t born into slavery. If mistreatment was brought before a court the slave could be set free. The slave could also buy their freedom. In all these cultures there was a pathway to freedom.

From what I understood from your post is that the American slaves had infinitely more civilized treatment. I’m not attacking you. I might be completely off. If this was in fact your meaning then I can’t help but completely disagree with that position. How is castrating the “bull” negros in order to control their breeding civilized? How is branding a child with your initials civilized? How is skinning an uppity “n*****” alive in front of the rest of the slaves in order to instill fear into their souls and never consider running away civilized? How is raping a woman because she’s your property civilized? How is breaking a grown man by whipping him and calling him a “boy” civilized? NOT ONE aspect of the American slavery was civilized. Sure, I’ll acknowledge the probability of the occasional kind master but to compare this evil to other forms in the ancient world is absurd. [/quote]

I am not claiming that they were treated more civilized.

I am claiming that you could argue that Americans of that era needed to convince themselves that black people were less than human to even enslave them.

No Roman had any such scruples.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:

According to what I was taught, slavery in the examples that you have given were a mix of debt imposed slavery, (you me alot so now you’re my servant) punishment for a crime committed, or a prisoner of war sentenced to slavery. Those are the few that come to the top of my head I’m sure there was other methods of acquiring slavehood. The slaves that built the pyramids in Egypt were well fed and housed. The slaves of the Aztecs also shared the same treatment. They were bound individually to slavery. Which means their children weren’t born into slavery. If mistreatment was brought before a court the slave could be set free. The slave could also buy their freedom. In all these cultures there was a pathway to freedom.

From what I understood from your post is that the American slaves had infinitely more civilized treatment. I’m not attacking you. I might be completely off. If this was in fact your meaning then I can’t help but completely disagree with that position. How is castrating the “bull” negros in order to control their breeding civilized? How is branding a child with your initials civilized? How is skinning an uppity “n*****” alive in front of the rest of the slaves in order to instill fear into their souls and never consider running away civilized? How is raping a woman because she’s your property civilized? How is breaking a grown man by whipping him and calling him a “boy” civilized? NOT ONE aspect of the American slavery was civilized. Sure, I’ll acknowledge the probability of the occasional kind master but to compare this evil to other forms in the ancient world is absurd. [/quote]

I’m sorry, Growing Boy, but I think you’ve been misinformed.

Slavery as practiced in North America on West African blacks, while reprehensible, was not unique or without historical precedent. Everything you described as happening to your people a few centuries ago most certainly happened to all races of people enslaved in every civilization, all throughout history.

Slaves were commonly taken as tribute from conquered provinces, or as prisoners of war. They were also acquired by traders, who bought them from brokers in Africa and elsewhere, just as was the case in Britain and North America.

“Uppity” slaves in Rome, as I mentioned earlier, were flogged to death or crucified in front of the other slaves, to serve as warnings to the others. A slave, regardless of sex or age, was the master’s property, for him to castrate, rape, beat, burn or kill as he saw fit. Fugitive slaves (yes, even children) would often get the letter “F” branded on their foreheads.

The Greeks treated their slaves a bit better than the Romans did (no crucifixion), but they definitely believed, along with Aristotle, that some people were just born to be enslaved.

In fact, this was literally true: children of slaves became slaves themselves, and the most economical way for a slave master to increase his supply of slaves was by selective breeding of the best stock.

Notably, any children resulting from sexual liaisons between a slave and her master were generally treated better than the ordinary slaves, and were in many cases educated and eventually freed (of course, this also happened in North America: Sally Hemings’ light-skinned children didn’t have to pick much cotton at Monticello).

I’m certainly not trying to cheapen the experience of black slaves in North America. It undoubtedly sucked to be a black slave in North America.

But to claim that it sucked demonstrably more to be a black slave in America than it did to be a slave in all other periods of history, and in all other places in the world, is to reveal extreme historical myopia.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
The slave could also buy their freedom. In all these cultures there was a pathway to freedom.
[/quote]

Implying that in North America there was no equivalent pathway? Look up the term “manumission.”

It was definitely possible for an African slave in North America to buy his freedom. Alternatively, he might be freed upon the death of the master, as stipulated in his or her will. A slave might also be bought by an abolitionist, and then granted his freedom.

It’s notable that many of these freed blacks went on to own black slaves of their own.

http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1006/article/1091

For all you know, Growing Boy, your ancestors owned slaves.

Should you be forced to pay reparations?

Words of wisdom:

"Slavery is a condition imposed upon individuals of races not sufficiently able to protect or defend themselves, and so long as a race or people expose themselves to the danger of being weak, no one can tell when they will be reduced to slavery.

"Slavery is not a condition confined to any one age or race of people. Slavery has been since man in the different distribution of himself, scattered here, there and everywhere, has grown and developed, wherein one race will become strong and the other race remains weak. The strong race has always reduced the weak to slavery. It has been so in ages past, it is so now in certain parts of the world, and will be so until the end of time.

"The great British nation was once a race of slaves. In their own country they were not respected because the Romans went there, brutalized and captured them, took them over to Rome and kept them in slavery.

They were not respected in Rome because they were regarded as a slave race. But the Briton did not always remain a slave. As a freed man he went back to his country and built up a civilization of his own, and by his self-reliance and initiative he forced the respect of mankind and maintains it until today."

–Marcus Garvey

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
As a freed man he went back to his country and built up a civilization of his own, and by his self-reliance and initiative he forced the respect of mankind and maintains it until today."

–Marcus Garvey[/quote]

Interesting choice, Varq.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
As a freed man he went back to his country and built up a civilization of his own, and by his self-reliance and initiative he forced the respect of mankind and maintains it until today."

–Marcus Garvey

Interesting choice, Varq.[/quote]

Well, if Garvey had had his way, all of the emancipated blacks would have gone back to their continent, built up a civilization of their own, and by their self-reliance and initiative, would have forced the respect of mankind.

What about the Muslim slave warriors? The Mameluke dynasty of Egypt (coutesy of the Mongols) or the Jannissaries of the Ottomans?

We’re talking Christian boys conscripted from their families, brought up as Muslims, and trained for battle.

Granted, one group became the rulers; the other was treated rather well and were feared as soldiers.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
As a freed man he went back to his country and built up a civilization of his own, and by his self-reliance and initiative he forced the respect of mankind and maintains it until today."

–Marcus Garvey

Interesting choice, Varq.

Well, if Garvey had had his way, all of the emancipated blacks would have gone back to their own continent, and by their self-reliance and initiative, would force the respect of mankind.

[/quote]

Kind of like they did in Liberia. Or when they kicked the whites out of Rhodesia. I’m not making a race statement here, but a cultural one.

mike

Funny. The last line of my post originally read, “However, I don’t think that Garvey would have considered Liberia to be the best example of this.” But I deleted it before posting.

I’d say that Rhodesia is a bit of a different species, as is South Africa, but all are in the same genus, certainly.