Wow this thread hasnt gotten to an interesting position since I last read it yesterday.
Push - thanks for the reply - I want to exmaine further the statement you made: “I see your point. However, when you say “the additional descriptions in 1 Timothy are clearly character related,” you imply a polygamously married man lacks character.”
I see this in terms of gluttony for lack of a better term (sorry, really tired today - so if I don’t male sense let me know) - what I mean is there’s nothing wrong with eating in and of itself, yet at some point eating excessively becomes gluttony and sinful. (I’m opening this up to all sorts of puns, i know) the same with this issue. So could we not also say that marriage is good and great, but over-indulgence is not? So the biblicial principle of moderation in ALL things comes into play as well. just trying to lay out the foundations here before we get into the more detailed issue.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Push - thanks for the reply - I want to exmaine further the statement you made: “I see your point. However, when you say “the additional descriptions in 1 Timothy are clearly character related,” you imply a polygamously married man lacks character.”
I see this in terms of gluttony for lack of a better term (sorry, really tired today - so if I don’t male sense let me know) - what I mean is there’s nothing wrong with eating in and of itself, yet at some point eating excessively becomes gluttony and sinful. (I’m opening this up to all sorts of puns, i know) the same with this issue. So could we not also say that marriage is good and great, but over-indulgence is not? So the biblicial principle of moderation in ALL things comes into play as well. just trying to lay out the foundations here before we get into the more detailed issue.
[/quote]
So, god has a problem with my bulking diet?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Push - thanks for the reply - I want to exmaine further the statement you made: “I see your point. However, when you say “the additional descriptions in 1 Timothy are clearly character related,” you imply a polygamously married man lacks character.”
I see this in terms of gluttony for lack of a better term (sorry, really tired today - so if I don’t male sense let me know) - what I mean is there’s nothing wrong with eating in and of itself, yet at some point eating excessively becomes gluttony and sinful. (I’m opening this up to all sorts of puns, i know) the same with this issue. So could we not also say that marriage is good and great, but over-indulgence is not? So the biblicial principle of moderation in ALL things comes into play as well. just trying to lay out the foundations here before we get into the more detailed issue.
[/quote]
So, god has a problem with my bulking diet?
[/quote]
yep - you’re not eating enough, you better catch up to us more spiritual eaters - LOL!!!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Push - thanks for the reply - I want to exmaine further the statement you made: “I see your point. However, when you say “the additional descriptions in 1 Timothy are clearly character related,” you imply a polygamously married man lacks character.”
I see this in terms of gluttony for lack of a better term (sorry, really tired today - so if I don’t male sense let me know) - what I mean is there’s nothing wrong with eating in and of itself, yet at some point eating excessively becomes gluttony and sinful. (I’m opening this up to all sorts of puns, i know) the same with this issue. So could we not also say that marriage is good and great, but over-indulgence is not? So the biblicial principle of moderation in ALL things comes into play as well. just trying to lay out the foundations here before we get into the more detailed issue.
[/quote]
Paul is acknowledging the problematic reality of weening the citizens of Ephesus away from the polygamous, poly-partner practices that were en vogue all over the greco roman world at that time. He is emphasizing that this will not happen while the leadership is doing it too.
“Look Timothy, it may take some time to get these gentiles, steeped in paganism out of their long held practices, to say nothing of possible complicated family situations, but make no mistake. The leaders are to be spotlessly monogamous or we have no credible witness with them at all.”
NIV “You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute”
and the next part of the nasb:“You shall not bring the hire of a harlot”
I’m not disagreeing with them, you’re the one that has been disagreeing with translations by claiming lust and adultery mean different things. If they do in fact mean something different than the original text, the translations are wrong.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Push - thanks for the reply - I want to exmaine further the statement you made: “I see your point. However, when you say “the additional descriptions in 1 Timothy are clearly character related,” you imply a polygamously married man lacks character.”
I see this in terms of gluttony for lack of a better term (sorry, really tired today - so if I don’t male sense let me know) - what I mean is there’s nothing wrong with eating in and of itself, yet at some point eating excessively becomes gluttony and sinful. (I’m opening this up to all sorts of puns, i know) the same with this issue. So could we not also say that marriage is good and great, but over-indulgence is not? So the biblicial principle of moderation in ALL things comes into play as well. just trying to lay out the foundations here before we get into the more detailed issue.
[/quote]
Paul is acknowledging the problematic reality of weening the citizens of Ephesus away from the polygamous, poly-partner practices that were en vogue all over the greco roman world at that time. He is emphasizing that this will not happen while the leadership is doing it too.
“Look Timothy, it may take some time to get these gentiles, steeped in paganism out of their long held practices, to say nothing of possible complicated family situations, but make no mistake. The leaders are to be spotlessly monogamous or we have no credible witness with them at all.” [/quote]
Not saying your wrong, in the least. Just taking my time with Push’s well-thought-out and detailed position.
This was not something Push decided lightly, if anything the level of detail in his answers shows a lot of time being spent in the word and trying to understand it all in context and from original construction. Now, maybe he started out to prove a particular point, or maybe he started out undecided. The point is that he has obviously studied this subject a lot. I admire anyone who spends that much time involved in studying the Bible, even if they came to a wrong conclusion, you cannot fault them for making an effort to study the scriptures.
Beyond that, we have all seen just how thorough Push is in his doctrinal stances, world-view etc. I cout him as a brother in Christ and as a brother, he deserves time, patience and understanding. I am not out to play the role of the Holy Spirit for him, but as a brother, if I believe him to be wrong in a doctrine, I need to deal with him in love and understanding, not in bashing or condemning.
So far, I do not agree with his conclusion, so I am asking very basic general questions trying to understand which passages he is giving weight to, which he is not and in what proportion. By understanding how he got to the view he holds, I can then examine the path by the light of scripture and see if he did indeed err from the true path, if so, I will make that case to him and knowing Push, he will take it in the spirit offered and re-examine his own conclusion. That is how I believe Scripture dictates that I treat a brother.
Now if this were an unbeliever - no chance that I would handle the situation in the same manner, because they would obviously not be a brother in Christ.
I love Push, respect him and treat him as I would ask to be treated were the roles reversed.
BTW, for what it’s worth - I love the view expressed in this song!
The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows when
But I’m strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
So on we go
His welfare is of my concern
No burden is he to bear
We’ll get there
For I know
He would not encumber me
If I’m laden at all
I’m laden with sadness
That everyone’s heart
Isn’t filled with the gladness
Of love for one another.
It’s a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we’re on the way to there
Why not share
And the load
Doesn’t weigh me down at all
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
He’s my brother
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< I love Push, respect him and treat him as I would ask to be treated were the roles reversed.[/quote]
Of course I love Push. That’s not the point and regardless of what he may think I do have a deep respect for him on many levels. I suppose one could say whether I count him as brother remains to be seen. God knows I have sorely tried his grace, eyes wide open when I knew better. He broke my heart and brought me back. I hope he does the same for Push.
As for the rest? You’re either gullible, a compromiser or a better man than I.
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both. And this was after I knew about his views on this. Believe you me I have taken no pleasure in this thread, but there is a vast difference between fighting the war with sin and joining the enemy.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< I love Push, respect him and treat him as I would ask to be treated were the roles reversed.[/quote]
Of course I love Push. That’s not the point and regardless of what he may think I do have a deep respect for him on many levels. I suppose one could say whether I count him as brother remains to be seen. God knows I have sorely tried his grace, eyes wide open when I knew better. He broke my heart and brought me back. I hope he does the same for Push.
As for the rest? You’re either gullible, a compromiser or a better man than I.
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both. And this was after I knew about his views on this. Believe you me I have taken no pleasure in this thread, but there is a vast difference between fighting the war with sin and joining the enemy.[/quote]
I know you feel thr same way I do - and did not mean to intone that you didn’t - I was just explaining how I was approaching the subject and discussion.
well, I’m definitely not a better man than you . . 
I want to publicly apologize to Push for my behavior on this thread.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both…[/quote]
Which one???
I love kickin’ Onion’s e-ass. He always bends over and makes it so easy! You can haul off and really let go with your right leg (I’m right-handed). It’s like kickin’ extra points.[/quote]
I find that I can get better distance out of Mak . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both…[/quote]
Which one???
I love kickin’ Onion’s e-ass. He always bends over and makes it so easy! You can haul off and really let go with your right leg (I’m right-handed). It’s like kickin’ extra points.[/quote]
I find that I can get better distance out of Mak . . . [/quote]
depends on the day. either one can be too deflated or inflated.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both…[/quote]
Which one???
I love kickin’ Onion’s e-ass. He always bends over and makes it so easy! You can haul off and really let go with your right leg (I’m right-handed). It’s like kickin’ extra points.[/quote]
I find that I can get better distance out of Mak . . . [/quote]
depends on the day. either one can be too deflated or inflated.[/quote]
Just so we can get all of them in one post do not forget Ryan P. McCarter.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ya know what’s really funny? This morning I was digging through a pile of papers and I found an old post from Push where he is beating up on Orion. LOL! Occasionally I’ll print somebody’s post to read to my wife that I find particularly insightful or entertaining. This one was both…[/quote]
Which one???
I love kickin’ Onion’s e-ass. He always bends over and makes it so easy! You can haul off and really let go with your right leg (I’m right-handed). It’s like kickin’ extra points.[/quote]
You were chastising him about his ivory tower attitude and how he fancies himself a deep, high thinking intellectual giant “when in the end you’re just a dope” LOL! Something about arriving at his destinations via a vehicle that’s missing some wheels and when he finally takes the slide down from his tower he’ll find out how cold the water is. I can’t find the paper now.