Religious Controversies: Man/Woman Equality

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m going to pose this question again, uncluttered by all the post quotes and such…Was the sex in Song of Solomon sin? If not, why not?

Is the Song of Solomon a book of sin?[/quote]

When I read it, I see what God intended between a husband and a wife. The desire that a husband and wife should have for each other. It is poetry written to a woman from a man. Are they married or are they just consensual partners? Solomon did not force her to dance naked infront of his friends. She chose to do those things for him. Does that make it not sin. Did he like it, he sure did. Solomon describes everything about her. Do I think it is sin, no because it is from a Husband to a wife.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I am really trying to understand you argument. It is alright to have consensual sex if your spouse is alright with it, and the women you are going to have sex with is alright with it, and the husband of the woman you are going to have sex with is alright with it?

[/quote]Was it alright in the Song of Solomon? Or is that book a book of sin?
[/quote]
May I presumme that you are saying that under these circumstances it is alright, but if one of the links in the chain are broken it is considered adultery?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m going to pose this question again, uncluttered by all the post quotes and such…Was the sex in Song of Solomon sin? If not, why not?

Is the Song of Solomon a book of sin?[/quote]

When I read it, I see what God intended between a husband and a wife. The desire that a husband and wife should have for each other. It is poetry written to a woman from a man. Are they married or are they just consensual partners? Solomon did not force her to dance naked infront of his friends. She chose to do those things for him. Does that make it not sin. Did he like it, he sure did. Solomon describes everything about her. Do I think it is sin, no because it is from a Husband to a wife.
[/quote]

Is it not a poem? Did the events really happen? How many love poems are explicitly true?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m going to pose this question again, uncluttered by all the post quotes and such…Was the sex in Song of Solomon sin? If not, why not?

Is the Song of Solomon a book of sin?[/quote]

When I read it, I see what God intended between a husband and a wife. The desire that a husband and wife should have for each other. It is poetry written to a woman from a man. Are they married or are they just consensual partners? Solomon did not force her to dance naked infront of his friends. She chose to do those things for him. Does that make it not sin. Did he like it, he sure did. Solomon describes everything about her. Do I think it is sin, no because it is from a Husband to a wife.
[/quote]

Is it not a poem? Did the events really happen? How many love poems are explicitly true? Couldn’t it have been included in the cannon, because of the theme of love and beauty?

Sorry, my beliefs poking through.[/quote]

The love poems I write to my wife are explicitly true. I want to read what Push has to say on your second sentence.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Biblical adultery always involved a married woman.

Even in cases of prostitution (harlotry) it took a married woman having sex with either a single or married man for it to be condemned. When a single woman was the prostitute it was not condemned.

You may scoff (maybe not) but those are the facts. Don’t deny them UNLESS you have put in the requisite study.[/quote]

Not true.
deut 22
" 21the men of the town will take the woman to the door of her father’s house and stone her to death.

This woman brought evil into your community by sleeping with someone before she got married, and you must get rid of that evil by killing her. "

And 23
"18The LORD your God is disgusted with men and women who are prostitutes of any kind, and he will not accept a gift from them, even if it had been promised to him. "

There are others, but you get the idea.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Am I in the club? Sounds like the cool place to be. I’m never sure what to tell people my religion is.[/quote]

I was responding to Maddox.

My point to you in this regard is I find it ironic that you come out of the woodwork thumpin’ your Bible on this subject but hang in the shadows on more foundational issues.[quote]

Do you believe I’m on the road to hell?[/quote]

I don’t know. What have you done with the knowledge that God has revealed to you in regards to His plan of salvation?
[/quote]

Funny, I consider sexual sin a foundational issue and whether or not the world was built in 6 days periphery and unimportant.

not sure specifically what you mean with the last part. I’m active in the church, and try to live by jesus’ example.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

…How many love poems are explicitly true?[/quote]

How would I know how many love poems are explicitly true? Non sequitur, dooood.[/quote]

“Poetry (from the Latin poeta, a poet) is a form of literary art in which language is used for its aesthetic and evocative qualities in addition to, or in lieu of, its apparent meaning.”

My point is that poetry by definition isn’t intended to be literal. The point of a poem is to elicit a mental/emotional/spiritual response to what is written. In the case of a biblical one, for the bible to be true, these have to be true not the literal meaning.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Biblical adultery always involved a married woman.

Even in cases of prostitution (harlotry) it took a married woman having sex with either a single or married man for it to be condemned. When a single woman was the prostitute it was not condemned.

You may scoff (maybe not) but those are the facts. Don’t deny them UNLESS you have put in the requisite study.[/quote]

Not true.
deut 22
" 21the men of the town will take the woman to the door of her father’s house and stone her to death.

This woman brought evil into your community by sleeping with someone before she got married, and you must get rid of that evil by killing her. "[/quote]

You took it out of context. No surprise there. If you look closely you will see the sin of lying is involved.

READ THE SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT.[quote]

And 23
"18The LORD your God is disgusted with men and women who are prostitutes of any kind, and he will not accept a gift from them, even if it had been promised to him. "

There are others, but you get the idea.[/quote]

Vs 23 in the NIV reads “If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her.”

You must have got your reference wrong. Please look it up and revise. Then I can respond.
[/quote]

wow, translations on verse 18 vary a lot. this is 17 in the kjv " 17There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

18 essentially says not to offer money earned through prostitution. kjv " 18Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

still shows my point. Prostitution in all forms is wrong.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Am I in the club? Sounds like the cool place to be. I’m never sure what to tell people my religion is.[/quote]

I was responding to Maddox.

My point to you in this regard is I find it ironic that you come out of the woodwork thumpin’ your Bible on this subject but hang in the shadows on more foundational issues.[quote]

Do you believe I’m on the road to hell?[/quote]

I don’t know. What have you done with the knowledge that God has revealed to you in regards to His plan of salvation?
[/quote]

Funny, I consider sexual sin a foundational issue [/quote]

Then you would do well to study sexual sin in the Bible much more closely than you apparently have. You’re a novice on this subject.[quote]

and whether or not the world was built in 6 days periphery and unimportant.[/quote]

Rejecting the first several chapters of Genesis as myth is unimportant, huh? The foundation for all of history and the future is laid there and you deem it “periphery?” Wow.[quote]

not sure specifically what you mean with the last part. I’m active in the church, and try to live by jesus’ example.[/quote]

You asked me if you were going to hell. I responded with “What have you done with the knowledge that God has revealed to you in regards to His plan of salvation?”

You responded essentially with, “I’m engaged in ‘works’ in order to be saved.” Read Ephesians 2: 8-9.
[/quote]

active in the church and living as Christ aren’t purely physical endeavors.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I find it mighty interesting that when it comes to creation/evolution debates the Tiribs and Maddox’s and DDs of this forum leave me alone in the Alamo, single-handedly fighting off Santa Ana’s army of atheists, agnostics and Genesis-is-a-myth Catholics but when the subject of sex in the Bible comes up the wagging tongues and pointing fingers have no problem suddenly appearing.

I’m in the mission outside of ol’ San Antone with two or three rifles and a dog and you guys are down in Galveston Bay tarpon fishing.

Very telling.

Sex in the Bible? “Let us draw our bows.”

“Genesis is a myth? The creation account is a joke?” [crickets chirping] “Ummmm…my name is Tirib/DD/DRMaddox and…well…I have to mow the lawn. Sorry, Push.”[/quote]
I just can’t let this go.
A few things. I promised myself when I came here looking for information on the anabolic diet that I would not get into debates about politics or religion because that wasn’t why I was here and those discussions are best engaged in in person. For over 2 years I held to that and then came BO and I found myself all over the political debates as you now. I said over and over that religious debates cannot in my view be effectively or efficiently held here and I stuck to that quite a bit longer than I did the political side. Only very recently have I really jumped in.

I said all that to say that I knew nothing about all of these discussions until you just now mentioned them because I wasn’t looking. However not even that is the point. I am telling you with my yea being a resounding yea that I do not see my corrupt fallen tattooed ass as being any better than anybody on this site or the rest of the world. I have proven myself fully capable of being a filthy stench in the nostrils of a holy God in my life in ways that would probably raise the eyebrows of some who’ve known me here a long time.

Now with that said, I expect sneering “atheistic” pagans to be just that. I am commanded not to cast my pearls before swine by Christ himself which means do not waste your time wrangling with people who’s only interest is to defame and blaspheme my Lord. They are dead in trespasses and sins, just like I was and cannot be intellectually arm wrestled unto resurrection. The bottom line is nobody was abandoning you. It’s not about you.

What I don’t expect is seeing someone take the name of Jesus Christ on their lips and then proceed to espouse an utterly abominable hell inspired perversion of THE primary, most ancient and most precious interpersonal relationship in all of God’s creation. You are defaming and bringing reproach to His name in ways all these people could never accomplish if they made it their life’s goal. You’ll call your whoredom “freedom in Christ” and me a pharisee. Fine. I can live with that.

God put ONE man and ONE women together in the sinless beginning. The man was to cleave to his WIFE and the TWO were to become ONE flesh, no longer TWO, but ONE. After the entrance of sin the whole history of mankind including God’s covenant people was one of legalistic earthly compromise as the entire book of Hebrews makes exhaustively clear. NOTHING was according to God’s settled ultimate order. Nothing. Abraham and the land, descendants like the stars of the sky, tablets of stone, the ark of the covenant, a cumbersome useless ceremonial law, which was designed to be cumbersome and useless, animal sacrifices, degraded relationships between men and women (oh yes they were), the temple, on and on. That entire divine economy was transient and longed for the day of it’s fulfillment.

It was indeed fulfilled in the virgin birth, life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension and exaltation of Jesus of Nazareth who is called by Paul the last Adam, He who brought the restoration of pre-fall life and then some in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. The first fruits of the life to to come and who would empower His people to resist the very corruption you are now proclaiming as His blessing.

Paul the great apostle, hand picked by Christ and writer of 2/3 of the New Testament hammered his readers about the war between the flesh and the spirit confessing his own mortal struggle in the 9th of Romans. In the midst of this he, and the rest of the New Testament writers using SINGULARS EVERYWHERE describes the restoration of the one flesh relationship in all it’s glory, commanding the HUSBAND to be willing to die for his WIFE and the WIFE to be willing to live for her HUSBAND. As has already been mentioned numerous times, even going so far as to equate the sacred marriage covenant to the fully internalized intimacy of Christ with His church. If you read this as a full on flesh festival with numerous partners you’re nuts.

Paul left Timothy at Ephesus, a thoroughgoing pagan paradise filled with people whose sexual practices bore an uncomfortable resemblance to your own. Polygamy, and every other form of debauchery were rampant. Paul wrote that letter to correct a whole catalog of perverted and heretical teachings that were worming their way into the church there. He was commissioned to the heathen gentile nations and boy were these people ever. He delegated that city to Timothy with the full understanding that generations of carnal indulgence die hard and it would be a constant struggle to achieve and maintain purity in that environment. Where he is absolutely exception-less and intolerant is in the leadership. They MUST be the husband of ONE WIFE. We cannot have as examples men who have not yet emerged victorious over these pagan practices.

You have indeed steered yourself and your wife (children?) who you are commanded to protect with your life directly into the jaws of an abhorrent deception that is EXACTLY like the JW’s, right down the the eerily reminiscent penchant for blaming Constantine and the catholics, only in a different area. They, at least as far as I’ve known them lead externally upright lives, but have an idolatrous pagan god. You, near as I can tell, at least in doctrinal form have the right God, but lead an idolatrous pagan lifestyle.

They, like you, have a god who leaves His church for a couple millennia devoid of foundational knowledge until their group arrives to see in the Bible what no one else had before. They, like you, are impervious to sound biblical scholarship opting instead for hacks who torture the text into line with their beloved views with screwball word studies that ignore the systematic import of the canon as a whole. They, like you engage in endless circular demands for proof and dismiss it when it’s presented based on the above.

It is no fun typing a post like this, especially with somebody I consider a friend here, but you are dancin with the devil my friend.