[quote]talldude wrote:<<< I KNOW this to be true. (see what I did there?) >>>[/quote]Yes I do. You continued grasping nothing of my position and continued reasoning autonomously with absolutely no basis for anything you say. You are enslaved in a reality of sinful subjectivity wherein you demand that the infinite God who created you bow to your 3 pound brain. I was your homeboy for the first 20 years of my life. How well I understand.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I have a question for those of you who are religious, and it is not intended as mockery or anything of the sort.
I am not religious. In fact, I feel nothing but disdain toward Christianity (and Judaism and Islam etc.). I say bad, and sometimes very disrespectful, things about it. I will never pray, or accept Jesus, or change my mind.
Other than this, I am a good person. I don’t lie, cheat, or steel. I am charitable.
Do you believe that I am going to hell? And, if so, what will it be like? And if not, then why be Christian if the sacrilegious get into heaven anyways?[/quote]
Yeah, your awful hateful, which leads me to believe it bothers you more than you lead on. As to your final destination, I have no idea. That’s your problem, not mine.[/quote]
I do use strong words in here. Too strong perhaps, from time to time. And I am passionately opposed to organized religion.
But I never meant to come across as hateful. And I do not hate you or anyone for a belief that they hold. I guess you could say that I hate Christianity, as an institution, but I don’t hate Christians. Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< It’s a good question from whence my certainty arises, because I’m certain at the moment, there wouldn’t be any equilibrium without it. I have no idea, could it be from god? And no, I do not mock, there is a unity in all creation that can be described with the word god, if one so wishes. It could also be that that’s the only way I can get all the pieces to click, so that what I see is understandable in the light of what I don’t know 
That didn’t make much sense. >>>[/quote]Yes it did make sense, but it IS arbitrary and capricious. The paragraph above is summed up with “because that’s the way I like it”. I’m not mocking either BTW.
[/quote] Okey 
but it’s not that I like it, I accept it.[/quote]Yes it is that you like it. You have erected “equilibrium” in the place of God and then proceeded to interpret your very existence so as to support the Lordship of this “equilibrium” in your mind. Hence, "Why do I have certainty? " “because <<<>>> there wouldn’t be any equilibrium without it”. Actually you have have sorta made certainty and “equilibrium” divine partners in this scheme of yours. They rely on and govern one another with neither really causing the existence of the other. Gimme one more and you’ll have your own personal trinity =] [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Of course I’m going to hell, there can be no doubt about it.[/quote] That can change ya know.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that =(
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I have a question for those of you who are religious, and it is not intended as mockery or anything of the sort.
I am not religious. In fact, I feel nothing but disdain toward Christianity (and Judaism and Islam etc.). I say bad, and sometimes very disrespectful, things about it. I will never pray, or accept Jesus, or change my mind.
Other than this, I am a good person. I don’t lie, cheat, or steel. I am charitable.
Do you believe that I am going to hell? And, if so, what will it be like? And if not, then why be Christian if the sacrilegious get into heaven anyways?[/quote]
Yeah, your awful hateful, which leads me to believe it bothers you more than you lead on. As to your final destination, I have no idea. That’s your problem, not mine.[/quote]
I do use strong words in here. Too strong perhaps, from time to time. And I am passionately opposed to organized religion.
But I never meant to come across as hateful. And I do not hate you or anyone for a belief that they hold. I guess you could say that I hate Christianity, as an institution, but I don’t hate Christians. Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
Actually, you’ve been fairly civil to me, but not others. I stand by what I said though.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I have a question for those of you who are religious, and it is not intended as mockery or anything of the sort.
I am not religious. In fact, I feel nothing but disdain toward Christianity (and Judaism and Islam etc.). I say bad, and sometimes very disrespectful, things about it. I will never pray, or accept Jesus, or change my mind.
Other than this, I am a good person. I don’t lie, cheat, or steel. I am charitable.
Do you believe that I am going to hell? And, if so, what will it be like? And if not, then why be Christian if the sacrilegious get into heaven anyways?[/quote]
Yeah, your awful hateful, which leads me to believe it bothers you more than you lead on. As to your final destination, I have no idea. That’s your problem, not mine.[/quote]
That’s awfully christian of you. So it’s every man for himself is it?
I was brought up as a Jehovas Witness, and my parents and sister still are JWs. Luckily JW’s don’t teach this nonsense about a fiery pit where unbelievers will burn for all eternity. I don’t see how any man of any faith could believe in such a thing. A heavenly father that tortures his wayward children for eternity? The very idea of it is completely ridiculous fear-mongering.
I can’t stand it when so called “christians” hint that someone is going to hell. Hell as in fiery chasm of infinite torture. If this does not reflect your view of what hell is, then I apologize for assuming. I have little knowledge of Catholisism(sp?).
[/quote]
I hinted nothing of the sort, you seem anxious to start a fight. I said I don’t know and I don’t. I don’t presume to know the mind of God.
Further, I am happy to help those who want help, imposing my will upon somebody else is not something I do.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]
Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.
It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]
That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.
[/quote]
Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.
For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.
I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education. [/quote]
But that is not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is a predisposition to religious belief. Coming to a false conclusion based purely on sensory perception has nothing to do with the conversation. I am all over that senses are deceptive. Deductive reality is the only thing you can prove is real. [/quote]
I know you’re talking about a predisposition to religious belief. I’m saying that I believe it to be a psychological thing, but whether it is genetic or psychological it can be overcome by education
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< but whether it is genetic or psychological it can be overcome by education[/quote]BRAVO!!! 2nd Corinthians 2:14-16 [quote]12-Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13-which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14-But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15-But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16-For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. [/quote] Here comes another created child of Adam who will stumble though this planet for a few decades presuming to "overcome" the eternal God who commands the cosmos to exist, with somebody's eggheaded classroom LOL!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that =([/quote]
?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I have a question for those of you who are religious, and it is not intended as mockery or anything of the sort.
I am not religious. In fact, I feel nothing but disdain toward Christianity (and Judaism and Islam etc.). I say bad, and sometimes very disrespectful, things about it. I will never pray, or accept Jesus, or change my mind.
Other than this, I am a good person. I don’t lie, cheat, or steel. I am charitable.
Do you believe that I am going to hell? And, if so, what will it be like? And if not, then why be Christian if the sacrilegious get into heaven anyways?[/quote]
Yeah, your awful hateful, which leads me to believe it bothers you more than you lead on. As to your final destination, I have no idea. That’s your problem, not mine.[/quote]
I do use strong words in here. Too strong perhaps, from time to time. And I am passionately opposed to organized religion.
But I never meant to come across as hateful. And I do not hate you or anyone for a belief that they hold. I guess you could say that I hate Christianity, as an institution, but I don’t hate Christians. Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
Actually, you’ve been fairly civil to me, but not others. I stand by what I said though. [/quote]
My apologies to anyone that I haven’t been civil with. I certainly do get abrasive at times. No hard feelings intended.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Yes it is that you like it. You have erected “equilibrium” in the place of God and then proceeded to interpret your very existence so as to support the Lordship of this “equilibrium” in your mind. Hence, "Why do I have certainty? " “because <<<>>> there wouldn’t be any equilibrium without it”. Actually you have have sorta made certainty and “equilibrium” divine partners in this scheme of yours. They rely on and govern one another with neither really causing the existence of the other. Gimme one more and you’ll have your own personal trinity =]
[/quote]
Certainty and “equilibrium” (or whatever, couldn’t come up with a better word), it’s an observation of a state of mind. Just trying to describe where I stand at the moment, that I’m certain of uncertainty.
Is uncertainty ok for my personal trinity? In the name of certainty, uncertainty and the holy equilibrium. Nah, certainty comes and goes, so do equilibrium, but uncertainty stays. Can’t make a trinity out of those.
But this is not quite what I ment. I wanted to say that accepting uncertainty as a fact of life, both concrete and spiritual, desn’t mean you have come to a dead end, on the contrary you are in the right place. But it can be extremely uncomfortable when you fight it.
E: and yeah, ok, to the extent that liking and accepting share common ground, I like it.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that =([/quote]
?[/quote]
Well, you see them as something to pity, viewing them as nothing less than tragic. It has to be so very hard on you that it would be family and friends.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]
Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.
It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]
That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.
[/quote]
Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.
For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.
I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education. [/quote]
But that is not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is a predisposition to religious belief. Coming to a false conclusion based purely on sensory perception has nothing to do with the conversation. I am all over that senses are deceptive. Deductive reality is the only thing you can prove is real. [/quote]
Deductive reasoning still has implicit, unprovable assumptions, and thus its claims are ultimately unprovable as well.[/quote]
No it doesn’t. Where did you get that? Assumptions aren’t deduced, they are inferred. Second, there are many more deductive arguments that Cosmology which is what you are thinking of. And like I have said before, if you can find even one instance where one of the premises of cosmology aren’t true, then you have debunked the argument. Nobody has ever done that…[/quote]
Are you aware that deductive logic itself is based on assumptions?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]
Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.
It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]
That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.
[/quote]
Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.
For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.
I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education. [/quote]
But that is not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is a predisposition to religious belief. Coming to a false conclusion based purely on sensory perception has nothing to do with the conversation. I am all over that senses are deceptive. Deductive reality is the only thing you can prove is real. [/quote]
I know you’re talking about a predisposition to religious belief. I’m saying that I believe it to be a psychological thing, but whether it is genetic or psychological it can be overcome by education[/quote]
Education of what? You have conclusive proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that God does not exist and all religion is bunk?
Sound more like you prefer to brain wash people in to thinking as you do…Yes, I know your going to call religion brain washing, but how is what you propose any different?
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]
Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.
It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]
That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.
[/quote]
Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.
For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.
I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education. [/quote]
But that is not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is a predisposition to religious belief. Coming to a false conclusion based purely on sensory perception has nothing to do with the conversation. I am all over that senses are deceptive. Deductive reality is the only thing you can prove is real. [/quote]
Deductive reasoning still has implicit, unprovable assumptions, and thus its claims are ultimately unprovable as well.[/quote]
No it doesn’t. Where did you get that? Assumptions aren’t deduced, they are inferred. Second, there are many more deductive arguments that Cosmology which is what you are thinking of. And like I have said before, if you can find even one instance where one of the premises of cosmology aren’t true, then you have debunked the argument. Nobody has ever done that…[/quote]
Are you aware that deductive logic itself is based on assumptions?[/quote]
No, it’s not. It would not be deductive if it were.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]talldude wrote:<<< I KNOW this to be true. (see what I did there?) >>>[/quote]Yes I do. You continued grasping nothing of my position and continued reasoning autonomously with absolutely no basis for anything you say. You are enslaved in a reality of sinful subjectivity wherein you demand that the infinite God who created you bow to your 3 pound brain. I was your homeboy for the first 20 years of my life. How well I understand.
[/quote]
You do well to dodge my questions, because you don’t have answers. No one does to those questions I posed.
I’m not trying to make god bend to my 3lb brain. I’m trying to get answers from YOU, not god. If you cannot provide them, that’s fine.
How do you know god? From scripture. Who was scripture written by? Man. And it’s a well established fact that the catholic church has basically decided how the bible reads today. If there were no bible, would you believe as you do? I think this is a critical test for anyone claiming to know god. There has to be a basis for your knowledge of god - you are human just like I am.
I’m not going to convince you of anything as you’ve closed yourself off from rational discussion, so I’ll stop here.
[quote]pat wrote:
No, it’s not. It would not be deductive if it were.[/quote]
I’m going to jump in here and say that YES, deductive logic is based on assumptions. Everything we observe is based on assumptions. For example, we assume that the laws of physics cannot change over time. Everything we observe and deduce in the physical world rests on this assumption. However, we do not know that physics can’t change over time, and there is no way to verify this.
If you want to pull in the matrix argument (reality is not real), that works as well. However, it also makes everything pointless so IMO it’s not a great argument.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that =([/quote]
?[/quote]
Well, you see them as something to pity, viewing them as nothing less than tragic. It has to be so very hard on you that it would be family and friends. [/quote]
Eh…you accept your friends and loved ones for who they are. Their beliefs are ridiculous, but its not like I’m not used to being around religious people. I used to date a girl who believed in ghosts…you don’t have to agree with someone in order to like them.
[quote]talldude wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]talldude wrote:<<< I understand your argument, >>>[/quote]Is that so? [quote]talldude wrote:<<< if we cannot take what we can observe as being “reality” >>>[/quote]You haven’t the first flickering clue what my “argument” is, as this last statement makes most deafeningly manifest. Please don’t go away though. Your participation is more than welcome. Bring a friend… or two.
Before you ask, please carefully read my ample posts of the last few pages. My fingers hurt.
[/quote]
Like I said, I understand your view, and I reject it because I think it is, for the lack of a better word, deluded.
There are multiple religions, mutually exclusive, that all like to think they “know” something through god. How can you reconcile this? I know your answer is going to be something along the lines of “god knows and I know through him” but that is the same thing everyone else is saying. Because these religions are exclusive, some people HAVE to be wrong. Who’s to say that isn’t you?
You can try to defend this any way you like, but this is an inescapable truth. I KNOW this to be true. (see what I did there?)
As I’ve pointed out before, religion is not logical. Therefore, to explain anything requiring logic with religion leads to an illogical conclusion. Knowledge, according to any reasonable definition, requires logic. If it doesn’t, then that is crossing over to the realm of belief. Maybe you feel you need the certainty that comes with that - can’t blame you on that.[/quote]
I’ll answer.
Religion is simply a means by which to communicate with God. You are right in saying that all religions think they are right and have some sort of mutual exclusivity to this relationship. The truth is, nobody really knows who is right or who is wrong. What I look for is the continuity between the faiths. What are the core tenets. A proper investigation of that matter is that the basal tenets prior to somebody perverting it to suit their own purposes are quite similar. Save for Buddhismâ?¦My understanding of them leads me to believe they are actually quite lazy and cannot be bothered to answer the hard questions.
I like to analogize that religions are more or less like a cell phone carrier. They all place the call, but some have more drops than others, some reception is better on a certain carrier than another, some are more accessible and affordable, but they all think they are the best. But they all can communicate to at least some degree. So if you are getting good reception, stay where you’re atâ?¦.
I disagree that religion is not logical. Some things about religion isn’t but truth is truth. Something is either true or it’s not. Religion takes the question of whether or not God exists, answers yes and then tries to understand what ‘He’ is like and how we can interact with ‘Him’.
Keep in mind, my buddy Tirib will vehemently disagree with everything I just wrote. I did not derive these conclusions flippantly, they are true in and out of scripture. God’s creation speaks as much about Him as does scripture.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some of my best friends and closest family members are Christian.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that =([/quote]
?[/quote]
Well, you see them as something to pity, viewing them as nothing less than tragic. It has to be so very hard on you that it would be family and friends. [/quote]
Eh…you accept your friends and loved ones for who they are. Their beliefs are ridiculous, but its not like I’m not used to being around religious people. I used to date a girl who believed in ghosts…you don’t have to agree with someone in order to like them.[/quote]
Just wanted to reach out and provide some comfort. Though we may argue, I’m still moved to hear that you have such tragic and pitiful family and friends. Be there for them in this desperate hour. Just be there. In the meantime, you are a shining example of compassion in treating with such pitiable folk. You’re like a saint working among lepers. Well, minus the contagious concern.