[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So, leaving Peter for Judas?[/quote]Alight already LOL!!! I can’t take it any more. I’m biting. What do you mean by this? I’m honestly not sure.
[/quote]
Clearly, Peter is the Pope and Judas is Calvin.[/quote]
But Judas was sorry for betraying Christ.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Chuck Norris is eternal.
Chuck Norris just is.
There is only one Chuck Norris who sometimes blesses us with an incarnation.[/quote]
I believe the affirmative is placed with the burden of proof.[/quote]
AHAHAHAHA[/quote]
Hmm…well, that is what my debate coach taught me. This is a debate, so therefore the affirmative is placed with the burden of proof.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
excomunicated Hitler.
[/quote]
Hitler excommunicated himself. I believe the Latin is, erit excommunicatus invenerit statim, ipso facto.
That may or may not be bad as I didn’t translate it, just pulled from my shaky memory. But basically, by the fact of the person doing the act it is an immediate excommunication, no one has to declare it.
I don’t have much knowledge on the German Bishop during WWII, but I am sure you’d enjoy the book written by the Rabbi:
This is not about a declaration as to his spiritual fate, it is about unambigiously declaring that is “ordainment” is void because he is acting against the will of God.
If the Church could not bring herself to do that in this circumstance, the message is quite clear: obey. [/quote]
What on earth do you expect Pope Pius to have done? What are you thinking, that Pope Pius could have ordered the Inquisition to take custody of Hitler and the Nazi leadership and bring them to Rome for trial! The German Bishops ex-communicated all active Nazi’s in February 1931, and yet thanks to the Marxists, the German voters abandoned the moderate political parties and fled to the Nazis during the 1931 Reichstag election anyway!
Pope Pius was more vocal in his criticism of the Nazis than the American Rabbinate. The American Rabbis held two anti-Nazi demonstrations in the safety of Washington DC. The Vatican was surrounded by the anti-Catholic Italian Fascist and then the German Nazi armies for most of the war. The Vatican was penetrated by two Italian Fascist and four German Nazi intelligence operations during WWII. Nonetheless, Pope Pius and the Vatican coordinated German Catholic military anti-Nazi resistance in Germany with British MI6 in an effort to overthrow Hitler. Hitler was so infuriated with Papal opposition that he ordered the Germany military to invade the Vatican and imprison Pope Pius XII. The invasion of the Vatican was thwarted because Pope Pius personally turned the German general in charge of the invasion into a double agent![/quote]
The Vatican also ran an ‘underground railroad’ getting Jews and other undesirables out of Nazi territory. To much saber rattling would have hurt that cause which saved many thousands of lives…
“Vatican records indicate that the Church operated an underground railroad that rescued 800,000 European Jews from the Holocaust. After a careful study of available documents, whoever is interested in the truth will no longer condemn the actions of Pope Pius XIIâ??s words and the Catholic Church during this tragic period.”
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
crystal clear to me.
[/quote]
It is for me for you.[/quote]
Being human, we’re both subject to confirmatory bias. The difference between us is that I acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly, while you don’t.[/quote]
How do you know this? And, how do you suppose I further acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly?[/quote]
You make absolute declarations, as if you know 100% what is true, and refuse to consider ideas that challenge your beliefs.
I recognize my beliefs for what they are, and realize there is far more that I don’t know than I do.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Chuck Norris is eternal.
Chuck Norris just is.
There is only one Chuck Norris who sometimes blesses us with an incarnation.[/quote]
I believe the affirmative is placed with the burden of proof.[/quote]
AHAHAHAHA[/quote]
Hmm…well, that is what my debate coach taught me. This is a debate, so therefore the affirmative is placed with the burden of proof.[/quote]
I was laughing at the idea of you saying that.
Hell, I’m still giggling.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I guess you could take it that way, but I meant it more that Tirib takes the bad people, which are in every religion, and uses it to ‘prove’ that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach the real gospel. That is of course compared to looking at the saints of the Church to judge the Catholic Church. He is leaving Peter because of Judas. [/quote]That was sort of along the lines of what I thought you meant. However, I embrace the God and Christ of His Word and by His Spirit and I do so with absolute commitment of everything I have and everything I am to Him to use or not as He sees fit for His own glory. By definition that means not just leaving, but renouncing and opposing EVERY word, doctrine and institution that is not of Him. Chief of which is the Roman Catholic empire of evil. I am at this moment holding a bag of beer nuts in my hand that has more authority in the Kingdom of God than that religion of pharisees ever will.
Once again you missed my point dear Christopher. I am not proposing a convert competition with your church… or anybody else’s for that matter. Where the JW’s at? They get tons of converts, especially around here. OR THE MUSLIMS!! LOL!! Converts prove nothing by themselves. I guarantee you I could start some cult and get some people to believe ANYTHING I say. My point was that we reformed protestants testify and proclaim the Word in direct contradiction to the parade of strawmen constantly aimed at us by people who know NOTHING of the almighty all sovereign God of the bible we love and preach. I just read though all the dozen or more hysterical posts since I’ve been at church tonight and it’s the same ol fraudulent non arguments.
I don’t think it’s funny. It does help fuel my prayer life though. I reject Rome because on every level she raises herself in opposition to the God and gospel I find in the Christian scriptures. It is truly a testament to the craft and efficiency of the devil’s operation that he can sell something so blatantly evil and anti Christian to so many for so long as not just A church of Christ, but THE church of Christ. I mean every syllable of holy writ cries out in pained testimony against everything she is and hundreds of millions of people are convinced that she alone has divine authority in the earth. Wadda tremendous double whammy that is. Satan loves to have it so. You have voluntarily submitted your will to the enemy of your soul disguised as the bride of Christ. It breaks my heart. I am being very serious and non sarcastic with this post Chris. Nothing will ever convince me to give up on you.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
crystal clear to me.
[/quote]
It is for me for you.[/quote]
Being human, we’re both subject to confirmatory bias. The difference between us is that I acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly, while you don’t.[/quote]
How do you know this? And, how do you suppose I further acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly?[/quote]
You make absolute declarations, as if you know 100% what is true, and refuse to consider ideas that challenge your beliefs.
I recognize my beliefs for what they are, and realize there is far more that I don’t know than I do.[/quote]
I have no problem being dogmatic and at the same time questioning what is the truth. After all, I am the person that is currently in a situation in a parish where I am black sheep-esque in a prominent and intellectual Parish (one that gets continual praise from Bishops across America and I think once from the Pope) for raising the question of marriage in the priesthood. I think questioning (questioning in good faith) things is good, if it is the truth it will stand up. I can say that with good faith that questioning does not go against Catholicism. That is if the current Pope is any example, as when he was in seminary he was along with about 70 other seminarians that questioned marriage in the priesthood. Although for all together different reasons than what the current generation questions, exempt of course is I as I question for B16’s reasons.
I just don’t appreciate being attacked because I hold something as dogma and treating me as I am a mindless child incapable of reason. Very few things do I hold as dogma, but I think the truth is that people are more annoyed not with my dogmatic-ness, but with my lack of perceived skepticism. I have and do reason that it is impossible to know everything and that I have to rely on others when it comes to certain things. Moreover, I find because of that reason skepticism to be an unsound position when it pertains to most things (although it does have its place).
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Chief of which is the Roman Catholic empire of evil.[/quote]
So you deny Mt 16:18.
And, don’t worry you fuel my prayer life as well, I already consecrated you in the Lord’s Virgin Mother’s Immaculate Heart, the Garden of God.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So you deny Mt 16:18. >>>[/quote]No sir. I would never deny one syllable scripture. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< And, don’t worry you fuel my prayer life as well, I already consecrated you in the Lord’s Virgin Mother’s Immaculate Heart, the Garden of God. >>>[/quote]Well thank you Chris. Regardless of how tragically non existent such a fruity figment of the imagination actually is, I believe you mean that sincerely and in that regard I am gratified. Wouldn’t it be easier if you could just hate me? Ya don’t though. I know ya don’t because regardless of all this crap flyin back and forth in these forums, I do so very genuinely believe that God is stirring down in your heart. I do.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So, leaving Peter for Judas?[/quote]Alight already LOL!!! I can’t take it any more. I’m biting. What do you mean by this? I’m honestly not sure.
[/quote]
Clearly, Peter is the Pope and Judas is Calvin.[/quote]
But Judas was sorry for betraying Christ.[/quote]
Calvin probably is too.
2 points for Elder Forlife!!! Good one buddy LOL!!!
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I guess you could take it that way, but I meant it more that Tirib takes the bad people, which are in every religion, and uses it to ‘prove’ that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach the real gospel. That is of course compared to looking at the saints of the Church to judge the Catholic Church. He is leaving Peter because of Judas. [/quote]That was sort of along the lines of what I thought you meant. However, I embrace the God and Christ of His Word and by His Spirit and I do so with absolute commitment of everything I have and everything I am to Him to use or not as He sees fit for His own glory. By definition that means not just leaving, but renouncing and opposing EVERY word, doctrine and institution that is not of Him. Chief of which is the Roman Catholic empire of evil. I am at this moment holding a bag of beer nuts in my hand that has more authority in the Kingdom of God than that religion of pharisees ever will.
Once again you missed my point dear Christopher. I am not proposing a convert competition with your church… or anybody else’s for that matter. Where the JW’s at? They get tons of converts, especially around here. OR THE MUSLIMS!! LOL!! Converts prove nothing by themselves. I guarantee you I could start some cult and get some people to believe ANYTHING I say. My point was that we reformed protestants testify and proclaim the Word in direct contradiction to the parade of strawmen constantly aimed at us by people who know NOTHING of the almighty all sovereign God of the bible we love and preach. I just read though all the dozen or more hysterical posts since I’ve been at church tonight and it’s the same ol fraudulent non arguments.
I don’t think it’s funny. It does help fuel my prayer life though. I reject Rome because on every level she raises herself in opposition to the God and gospel I find in the Christian scriptures. It is truly a testament to the craft and efficiency of the devil’s operation that he can sell something so blatantly evil and anti Christian to so many for so long as not just A church of Christ, but THE church of Christ. I mean every syllable of holy writ cries out in pained testimony against everything she is and hundreds of millions of people are convinced that she alone has divine authority in the earth. Wadda tremendous double whammy that is. Satan loves to have it so. You have voluntarily submitted your will to the enemy of your soul disguised as the bride of Christ. It breaks my heart. I am being very serious and non sarcastic with this post Chris. Nothing will ever convince me to give up on you.
[/quote]
If you could start a cult and get people to believe ANYTHING you say, so could Calvin. In fact, he did just that.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
crystal clear to me.
[/quote]
It is for me for you.[/quote]
Being human, we’re both subject to confirmatory bias. The difference between us is that I acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly, while you don’t.[/quote]
How do you know this? And, how do you suppose I further acknowledge this in myself and gauge my certitude accordingly?[/quote]
You make absolute declarations, as if you know 100% what is true, and refuse to consider ideas that challenge your beliefs.
I recognize my beliefs for what they are, and realize there is far more that I don’t know than I do.[/quote]
I have no problem being dogmatic and at the same time questioning what is the truth. After all, I am the person that is currently in a situation in a parish where I am black sheep-esque in a prominent and intellectual Parish (one that gets continual praise from Bishops across America and I think once from the Pope) for raising the question of marriage in the priesthood. I think questioning (questioning in good faith) things is good, if it is the truth it will stand up. I can say that with good faith that questioning does not go against Catholicism. That is if the current Pope is any example, as when he was in seminary he was along with about 70 other seminarians that questioned marriage in the priesthood. Although for all together different reasons than what the current generation questions, exempt of course is I as I question for B16’s reasons.
I just don’t appreciate being attacked because I hold something as dogma and treating me as I am a mindless child incapable of reason. Very few things do I hold as dogma, but I think the truth is that people are more annoyed not with my dogmatic-ness, but with my lack of perceived skepticism. I have and do reason that it is impossible to know everything and that I have to rely on others when it comes to certain things. Moreover, I find because of that reason skepticism to be an unsound position when it pertains to most things (although it does have its place).[/quote]
It’s good that you question some things, but do you truly question the biggest and most important issues, like the existence of a god and the authority of the Catholic church? It seems to me that you have already decided that you know the answers to these questions with 100% certainty, and everything is forced to fit these answers.
I’m not attacking you for having a confirmatory bias. As I’ve said many times, it’s human nature to interpret evidence in a way that confirms our preconceptions. It is very insidious, and most don’t even recognize themselves doing it. They genuinely believe they’re being objective, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Look at you and Tiribulus. Surely you can see how he interprets the bible to fit his ideas of god, as surely he can see you doing the same thing.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<>>
[/quote]
To do what? Become a calvinist, a reformed baptist? I am guessing he’d rather emasculate himself with a rusty knife…Based on what he says I know where BC is on his faith journey, conversion to anything else is not likely. Once you have a proper Eucharistic experience, you never give that up, ever, ever, ever…You know.
[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s good that you question some things, but do you truly question the biggest and most important issues, like the existence of a god and the authority of the Catholic church? It seems to me that you have already decided that you know the answers to these questions with 100% certainty, and everything is forced to fit these answers.[/quote]
100% certainty, not possible. As if we are honest, we can’t be 100% that we weren’t created along with our memories five minutes ago. I guess it comes with having one of the weaker intellects of the creatures.
However, I did all that and another after I found Calvinism to be utterly illogical. Yes, I went to a Calvinist non-denominational Church.
Historically, Jesus was a real person, he fulfilled prophesies and he did make promises and one of those promises was an authoritative and hierarchical Church and that Church is historically the Catholic Church.
I didn’t think you were attacking me, just pointing out that other posters had, even recently in this thread. 
[quote]It is very insidious, and most don’t even recognize themselves doing it. They genuinely believe they’re being objective, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Look at you and Tiribulus. Surely you can see how he interprets the bible to fit his ideas of god, as surely he can see you doing the same thing.[/quote]
Well, I suppose that is the difference between us is that ‘my’ interpretation isn’t mine, I didn’t come up with it and it would be completely and totally unethical for me to say I came up with it.
Mine is from the Catholic Church and is verifiable that it is and if it isn’t then some studying needs to be done. Tirib says his is God’s but of course that is seeming impossible to prove except that some Calvinist dude was the first to come up with such interpretation.
Chris, you’re wise to recognize the limits of what we can actually know, wiser in fact than Tiribulus, twice your age, who refuses to entertain even the smallest doubt that his current beliefs may not reflect reality.
When I mentioned your interpretation, I was referring more to your personal appraisal of the correctness of Catholic beliefs. I agree that Jesus was probably a real person, although many biblical scholars believe some of the most pivotal claims of what actually happened during his lifetime (like the nativity and resurrection) are historically suspect. If the resurrection never happened, Christianity as a whole (not just Catholicism and Calvanism) is based on an incorrect belief.
It’s more comfortable psychologically and emotionally to disregard doubts; even a false security can provide hope and direction in a person’s life. But that doesn’t mean his beliefs actually reflect reality.
Doubt is sin, and double mindedness which James says makes a man unstable in all his ways. James 1:8 God IS certainty, bless His holy name. I refuse to doubt. Ya’ll do what ya want. I stand firmly on His promises.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Doubt is sin, and double mindedness which James says makes a man unstable in all his ways. James 1:8 God IS certainty, bless His holy name. I refuse to doubt. Ya’ll do what ya want. I stand firmly on His promises.[/quote]
The problem with unconditional belief (i.e., what Thomas Jefferson refers to as gullibility) is that it allows you to believe literally anything, and says nothing about what is actually real.
What if Brother Chris were to refuse to doubt Catholicism? How about Muslims, Mormons, and Jews?
You can see the value of doubt for everyone that believes differently than you, but you are blind to those same dangers when it comes to your own beliefs.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Doubt is sin, and double mindedness which James says makes a man unstable in all his ways. James 1:8 God IS certainty, bless His holy name. I refuse to doubt. Ya’ll do what ya want. I stand firmly on His promises.[/quote]
The problem with unconditional belief (i.e., what Thomas Jefferson refers to as gullibility) is that it allows you to believe literally anything, and says nothing about what is actually real.
What if Brother Chris were to refuse to doubt Catholicism? How about Muslims, Mormons, and Jews?
You can see the value of doubt for everyone that believes differently than you, but you are blind to those same dangers when it comes to your own beliefs.[/quote]
Unconditional, unverifiable belief makes you a sucker for anything.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, you’re wise to recognize the limits of what we can actually know, wiser in fact than Tiribulus, twice your age, who refuses to entertain even the smallest doubt that his current beliefs may not reflect reality.
When I mentioned your interpretation, I was referring more to your personal appraisal of the correctness of Catholic beliefs. I agree that Jesus was probably a real person, although many biblical scholars believe some of the most pivotal claims of what actually happened during his lifetime (like the nativity and resurrection) are historically suspect. If the resurrection never happened, Christianity as a whole (not just Catholicism and Calvanism) is based on an incorrect belief.
It’s more comfortable psychologically and emotionally to disregard doubts; even a false security can provide hope and direction in a person’s life. But that doesn’t mean his beliefs actually reflect reality.[/quote]
True, but I do find the resurrection to be true on several accounts (William Craig makes a good argument on this). That is another time and place, though.