Religious Belief is Human Nature?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Rome is made of stone, which does not burn.

Atheism hasn’t done much good or been very enlightening by any stretch, so I really don’t see the advantage except there is no ultimate culpability in the belief system. So if you accidentally do tremendousness harm, it’s ok in the end cause nothing really matters.

Don’t care, take your time.[/quote]

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.

22

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Humans basically have too much ego, many people simply can’t handle the idea that the here & now is (probably) all that their is & ever will be. So, quite naturally they find ways to convince themselves that they are special, unique snowflakes, above animals & can settle upon certain morals & values which might grant them eternal life (or perhaps just a certain smugness).

People can’t see beyond their own emotions.

This isn’t just true of religious belief(s) though, I’d go as far to say it’s true of all sorts of other logically dubioius beliefs/attribution errors etc.
[/quote]

Your post doesn’t make much sense.
I don’t see how ego and the ‘here and no’ being the end all be all of existence go together. Nor the fact that everyone is different from one another mate up to the afore mentioned attributes…Nor how emotions play into it. Nor how you draw the conclusion that it is in ‘error’ along with other belief systems based on the previously mentioned things.

23

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Rome is made of stone, which does not burn.

Atheism hasn’t done much good or been very enlightening by any stretch, so I really don’t see the advantage except there is no ultimate culpability in the belief system. So if you accidentally do tremendousness harm, it’s ok in the end cause nothing really matters.

Don’t care, take your time.[/quote]

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

That’s not how it works…Never the less, how have atheists improved anything? I fail to see any good it’s practitioners have done to make the world a better place devoid of religion. How is this thinking better?

24

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Religious belief could be a part of human nature…but then again, what about people that have none?

And even still just because religious belief may be part of our “human nature” does not mean it is a valid belief system that yields true knowledge.

I think it is a valid argument that people will devise theories to help them account for the inexplicable – many of these theories will fall in the realm of superstition.[/quote]

Everybody has some form of it. Most people that don’t believe in God turn to science for all their answers. Ironically, through out history, science has been mostly wrong. I have little dounbt that many current theories and hypotheses will be stood on their respective heads over the next couple hundred years.[/quote]

Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.

25

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Take away religion and humans go instinct.[/quote]

People go instinct regardless of religion. Often religion is used to justify instinctual behaviour [against competing tribes]. Religion is just a thin layer of veneer to show your neighbours you belong there.
[/quote]

…I guess Catholicism really is counter-cultural.

26

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Rome is made of stone, which does not burn.

Atheism hasn’t done much good or been very enlightening by any stretch, so I really don’t see the advantage except there is no ultimate culpability in the belief system. So if you accidentally do tremendousness harm, it’s ok in the end cause nothing really matters.

Don’t care, take your time.[/quote]

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

I have never heard that, even if you are ‘forgiven’ you still have a mess to clean up. There is still temporal punishment. So, when a believe repents they don’t get the death penalty, but they instead get the lashings.

27

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Where is your proof.

28

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Where is your proof. [/quote]

Nearly every theory in physics is a revision from previous theory.

Einstein corrected Newton (but Newton still works for earthbound mechanics).

29

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Rome is made of stone, which does not burn.

Atheism hasn’t done much good or been very enlightening by any stretch, so I really don’t see the advantage except there is no ultimate culpability in the belief system. So if you accidentally do tremendousness harm, it’s ok in the end cause nothing really matters.

Don’t care, take your time.[/quote]

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

I have never heard that, even if you are ‘forgiven’ you still have a mess to clean up. There is still temporal punishment. So, when a believe repents they don’t get the death penalty, but they instead get the lashings. [/quote]

What do you think pat meant by, “no ultimate culpability”?

I think he meant that there’s no judgment of your actions in an afterlife, and that’s what i was talking about, chris.

30

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

That’s not how it works…Never the less, how have atheists improved anything? I fail to see any good it’s practitioners have done to make the world a better place devoid of religion. How is this thinking better?[/quote]

Altough i think the world is better off without institutionalized religion, i also recognize the need people have for religion. As such, as an atheist, i’m not striving for an abolishment of religion through force.

I’ve posted research that almost 30% of american scientists are atheist, and another 30% is agnostic. If you think that these people don’t make a positive difference in the world, then i don’t know what to tell you.

31

[quote]ephrem wrote:
So people who believe in the May 21st rapture, or people who believe the earth is flat are wrong. Yet people who believe the gospel are right. Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). >>>[/quote]I had to fix that for ya. BTW, We have billboards for this May 21st deal here in Detroit. Quite the joke in my church.

I had a booklet once called “88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988” by Some guy named Roger somthing. It came out in 87. That was dopey too… duh.

32

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

That’s not how it works…Never the less, how have atheists improved anything? I fail to see any good it’s practitioners have done to make the world a better place devoid of religion. How is this thinking better?[/quote]

Altough i think the world is better off without institutionalized religion, i also recognize the need people have for religion. As such, as an atheist, i’m not striving for an abolishment of religion through force.

I’ve posted research that almost 30% of american scientists are atheist, and another 30% is agnostic. If you think that these people don’t make a positive difference in the world, then i don’t know what to tell you.
[/quote]

Science also gave us the atomic bomb, chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc. too. So I think it’s a wash…Technological advancement is both a blessing and a curse.

33

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.
[/quote]
Interesting statement. Some of it can be proven wrong though…

[quote]
People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Yeah, but they are not the same things…One is not like the other. Science and religion do intersect at certain points, but often not were most people tend to think they do. It’s the base philosophies behind both that lead to intersects at certain points but the intersect are rooted in logic. My experience is that most people fail to look there.

34

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

That’s not how it works…Never the less, how have atheists improved anything? I fail to see any good it’s practitioners have done to make the world a better place devoid of religion. How is this thinking better?[/quote]

Altough i think the world is better off without institutionalized religion, i also recognize the need people have for religion. As such, as an atheist, i’m not striving for an abolishment of religion through force.

I’ve posted research that almost 30% of american scientists are atheist, and another 30% is agnostic. If you think that these people don’t make a positive difference in the world, then i don’t know what to tell you.
[/quote]

Science also gave us the atomic bomb, chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc. too. So I think it’s a wash…Technological advancement is both a blessing and a curse.[/quote]

And religion gave us the inquisition, crusades, witch burnings, genocide, displacement of peoples and indoctrination of generations of children. Scientific progress created the modern world as we know it, not religion.

The dualistic nature of mankind is reflected in science aswell, no arguement there, but to call it a wash, no. Not until we go extinct because of scientific progress. The rapture is unlikely to happen, but Skynet might.

35

[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< I’ve posted research that almost 30% of american scientists are atheist, and another 30% is agnostic. If you think that these people don’t make a positive difference in the world, then i don’t know what to tell you.
[/quote]I said a week or 2 ago: [quote]It’s not that unbelievers do not advance true knowledge and hence contribute much good to the world. Of course they do, but they do it in spite of and not because of their own foundational beliefs. It’s only because my foundational beliefs are true that anything they do bears fruit. They hate that. They hate God. They are His enemies. Same as I was. That’s why Paul told us in Romans 1 that they “suppress” or as the Greek has it, they “hold under” the truth in their unrighteousness. Picture a beach ball in the water. They keep holding it down, while it keeps popping up. That’s how they attempt to hide from their true selves and the God who created them. Paul says they are without excuse. God has reveled Himself unavoidably everywhere and especially IN themselves as created in His very image fractured though it is.[/quote]

36

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Where is your proof. [/quote]

Nearly every theory in physics is a revision from previous theory.

Einstein corrected Newton (but Newton still works for earthbound mechanics).[/quote]

…but your premise is that people who believed incorrect scientific theories are proven incorrect, learn and revise. Catholicism has been sitting basically on the top of the hill for 2000 years and has yet to be proven wrong, so why would we need to revise. Sure a few million straw men have been beaten up, burned, &c., but no one has yet taken a single brick out of the foundation.

37

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< I’ve posted research that almost 30% of american scientists are atheist, and another 30% is agnostic. If you think that these people don’t make a positive difference in the world, then i don’t know what to tell you.
[/quote]I said a week or 2 ago: [quote]It’s not that unbelievers do not advance true knowledge and hence contribute much good to the world. Of course they do, but they do it in spite of and not because of their own foundational beliefs. It’s only because my foundational beliefs are true that anything they do bears fruit. They hate that. They hate God. They are His enemies. Same as I was. That’s why Paul told us in Romans 1 that they “suppress” or as the Greek has it, they “hold under” the truth in their unrighteousness. Picture a beach ball in the water. They keep holding it down, while it keeps popping up. That’s how they attempt to hide from their true selves and the God who created them. Paul says they are without excuse. God has reveled Himself unavoidably everywhere and especially IN themselves as created in His very image fractured though it is.[/quote]
[/quote]

Your beliefs and how you think they affect the world are irrelevant.

38

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, but the one strength of science that religion doesn’t have is that science can be demonstrated to be incorrect whereas religion cannot.

People who believe incorrect scientific theories can still learn and revise their understanding. Religion cannot offer that.[/quote]

Where is your proof. [/quote]

Nearly every theory in physics is a revision from previous theory.

Einstein corrected Newton (but Newton still works for earthbound mechanics).[/quote]

…but your premise is that people who believed incorrect scientific theories are proven incorrect, learn and revise. Catholicism has been sitting basically on the top of the hill for 2000 years and has yet to be proven wrong, so why would we need to revise. Sure a few million straw men have been beaten up, burned, &c., but no one has yet taken a single brick out of the foundation.

[/quote]

Nobody has been able to conclusively prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a god exists.

It is impossible to take a brick from a foundation that does not exist.

That is the real glory of the catholic church: that it has been able to con people for 2000 years with a fairytale.

39

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Our propensity for religious beliefs will be our downfall. Add greed and stupidity to the mix and watch Rome burn.

Pat, i have little to add to the other thread we posted in. I haven’t forgotten about them, but i’m just ignoring it for now.[/quote]

Rome is made of stone, which does not burn.

Atheism hasn’t done much good or been very enlightening by any stretch, so I really don’t see the advantage except there is no ultimate culpability in the belief system. So if you accidentally do tremendousness harm, it’s ok in the end cause nothing really matters.

Don’t care, take your time.[/quote]

Believers have done tremendous harm, but simply repent and all’s good again until they do tremendous harm again. Ad infinitum.
[/quote]

I have never heard that, even if you are ‘forgiven’ you still have a mess to clean up. There is still temporal punishment. So, when a believe repents they don’t get the death penalty, but they instead get the lashings. [/quote]

What do you think pat meant by, “no ultimate culpability”?

I think he meant that there’s no judgment of your actions in an afterlife, and that’s what i was talking about, chris.
[/quote]

I’m talking about what believers believe, you said that they repent and all is good. No…it is not. That is incorrect, that is not what the Catholic Church, which includes pat and me, teaches.

You repent of your sins, you then have a penance to do. Think of it like this you get into a car accident with your neighbor, she’s in the hospital. You go to the hospital and you bring her flowers and ask for forgiveness, you repent. She forgives you and you’re all done you get to go home and watch soccer on TV. Wrong.

You still have to pay for the damage to the vehicles. You still have to pay her medical bills. You still have to pay for time lost. &c.

40

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

What do you think pat meant by, “no ultimate culpability”?

I think he meant that there’s no judgment of your actions in an afterlife, and that’s what i was talking about, chris.
[/quote]

I’m talking about what believers believe, you said that they repent and all is good. No…it is not. That is incorrect, that is not what the Catholic Church, which includes pat and me, teaches.

You repent of your sins, you then have a penance to do. Think of it like this you get into a car accident with your neighbor, she’s in the hospital. You go to the hospital and you bring her flowers and ask for forgiveness, you repent. She forgives you and you’re all done you get to go home and watch soccer on TV. Wrong.

You still have to pay for the damage to the vehicles. You still have to pay her medical bills. You still have to pay for time lost. &c.

[/quote]

Ten hail mary’s and your good to go; you’ve repented and can enter heaven once more.

You know, if i wrong a person, even if it’s inadvertently, i’ll apologize and try to make it right.

I don’t get why people have so much trouble with that concept that they need someone else to tell them to make things right.