[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Thank God for making me an atheist.[/quote]You’re catching on. That may be the most Calvinistic statement I’ve ever seen a pagan make.
[/quote]
Yup, me too. You’re getting to him 
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Thank God for making me an atheist.[/quote]You’re catching on. That may be the most Calvinistic statement I’ve ever seen a pagan make.
[/quote]<<< Yup, me too. You’re getting to him :)[/quote]I’m hopin it’s the Holy Ghost =]
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Yes it is that you like it. You have erected “equilibrium” in the place of God and then proceeded to interpret your very existence so as to support the Lordship of this “equilibrium” in your mind. Hence, "Why do I have certainty? " “because <<<>>> there wouldn’t be any equilibrium without it”. Actually you have have sorta made certainty and “equilibrium” divine partners in this scheme of yours. They rely on and govern one another with neither really causing the existence of the other. Gimme one more and you’ll have your own personal trinity =]
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Certainty and “equilibrium” (or whatever, couldn’t come up with a better word), it’s an observation of a state of mind. Just trying to describe where I stand at the moment, that I’m certain of uncertainty.
Is uncertainty ok for my personal trinity? In the name of certainty, uncertainty and the holy equilibrium. Nah, certainty comes and goes, so do equilibrium, but uncertainty stays. Can’t make a trinity out of those.
But this is not quite what I ment. I wanted to say that accepting uncertainty as a fact of life, both concrete and spiritual, desn’t mean you have come to a dead end, on the contrary you are in the right place. But it can be extremely uncomfortable when you fight it.
E: and yeah, ok, to the extent that liking and accepting share common ground, I like it.[/quote]You’re killin me here my fine Finnish friend (FFF?). You can’t possibly believe that what you’ve said above is any more coherent and consistent than my belief in the God of the bible. Only uncertainty is certain? That is so circular I’m going to buy you a hula hoop for your birthday.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You’re killin me here my fine Finnish friend (FFF?). You can’t possibly believe that what you’ve said above is any more coherent and consistent than my belief in the God of the bible. Only uncertainty is certain? That is so circular I’m going to buy you a hula hoop for your birthday.
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I have not claimed superior consistency or coherence, but plausibility. That’s what I see in this world. I don’t see what you claim to see. I can well accept that somebody calls world divine or something like that, astonishing maybe, but I do not see a personal god and never have. And that’s why what you called a dead end is a dead end only when you demand something personal from the world.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I have not claimed superior consistency or coherence, but plausibility. >>>[/quote] Now jista hornswoggled minute here. Do you mean to tell me that plausibility for you is not based on consistency or coherence? [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I don’t see what you claim to see.<<<>>> I do not see a personal god and never have.>>>[/quote]He has posted signs of His divine nature and ownership literally everywhere. You’re lookin right at Him even with your eyes closed. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:And that’s why what you called a dead end is a dead end only when you demand something personal from the world.[/quote]It’s only not a dead end if you are willing to live with an existence utterly devoid of content and meaning. Think with me for a second here buddy. You are certain only of uncertainty and this somehow provides you with a plausible equilibrium that is not personal, but of necessity certainly uncertainly so. You’re decent guy and I’m not trying to be an ass. All I’ve done is put all your statements so far into one sentence.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I have not claimed superior consistency or coherence, but plausibility. >>>[/quote] Now jista hornswoggled minute here. Do you mean to tell me that plausibility for you is not based on consistency or coherence? [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I don’t see what you claim to see.<<<>>> I do not see a personal god and never have.>>>[/quote]He has posted signs of His divine nature and ownership literally everywhere. You’re lookin right at Him even with your eyes closed. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:And that’s why what you called a dead end is a dead end only when you demand something personal from the world.[/quote]It’s only not a dead end if you are willing to live with an existence utterly devoid of content and meaning. Think with me for a second here buddy. You are certain only of uncertainty and this somehow provides you with a plausible equilibrium that is not personal, but of necessity certainly uncertainly so. You’re decent guy and I’m not trying to be an ass. All I’ve done is put all your statements so far into one sentence.
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I consider something to be plausible when the explanation correlates with observation.
You say so, other people have said it to me before. I see unity alright, but that is not a personal god.
So far what I have seen, I’m 47 now, there is no meaning for me on a bigger scale, I’m fully replaceable and disposable. Meaning is here and now in my vicinity, it’s here where I’m not replaceable. That is something I can observe and feel firsthand. And uncertainty, on daily, spiritual and philosophical sense, that I can see too. And what this modest worldview amounts up to, is not a dead end to me, because it makes sense.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I consider something to be plausible when the explanation correlates with observation. >>>[/quote]I have a feeling you already know how subjective this is. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< You say so, other people have said it to me before. I see unity alright, but that is not a personal god. [/quote] Not just any personal god. THE tri-personal God of Christianity. His signature is universal. The problem is with fallen man, not Him. As the old hymn writer expressed it so appropriately:
“Holy holy holy
Though the darkness hide thee
Though the eye of sinful man thy glory may not see
Only thou art holy
There is none beside thee
Perfect in power, in love and purity”
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I’m 47 now, [/quote]<<< You’re my age. I would have never guessed. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< there is no meaning for me on a bigger scale, I’m fully replaceable and disposable. >>>[/quote]Oh yes there is and oh no you’re not. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Meaning is here and now in my vicinity, it’s here where I’m not replaceable. >>>[/quote] You are longing for significance. Yes you are [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< That is something I can observe and feel firsthand. And uncertainty, on daily, spiritual and philosophical sense, that I can see too. And what this modest worldview amounts up to, is not a dead end to me, because it makes sense.[/quote]OK, but how can anything daily make sense on the spiritual and philosophical level, or any other level for that matter when it is built squarely upon uncertainty? Which according to you is the only absolute? That is a foundation of sand my friend.
My Precioussss…
What’s your point Ephrem ol buddy ol pal?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You are longing for significance. Yes you are
OK, but how can anything daily make sense on the spiritual and philosophical level, or any other level for that matter when it is built squarely upon uncertainty? Which according to you is the only absolute? That is a foundation of sand my friend.
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My significance is here, in this life.
I don’t know, it just does. I don’t think I can give you a meaningful answer on that. I get to see all kind of interesting stuff in life?
I don’t make any claims of knowing any absolute. Uncertainty as I mean it is not an absolute, either, it’s what I see, an observation. You should know all this (E: uncertainty), since all knowledge comes from god according to you, I do not possess divine knowledge. But from where I am, the world does make sense and it’s actually quite amazing.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What’s your point Ephrem ol buddy ol pal?[/quote]
The way you latch on to what you perceive as a ‘weakness’ reminded me of the good 'ol popey.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You are longing for significance. Yes you are
OK, but how can anything daily make sense on the spiritual and philosophical level, or any other level for that matter when it is built squarely upon uncertainty? Which according to you is the only absolute? That is a foundation of sand my friend.
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My significance is here, in this life.
I don’t know, it just does. I don’t think I can give you a meaningful answer on that. I get to see all kind of interesting stuff in life?
I don’t make any claims of knowing any absolute. Uncertainty as I mean it is not an absolute, either, it’s what I see, an observation. You should know all this (E: uncertainty), since all knowledge comes from god according to you, I do not possess divine knowledge. But from where I am, the world does make sense and it’s actually quite amazing.[/quote]
You know you don’t know and aren’t looking towards religious beliefs to quell uncertainty because that uncertainty does not interfere with your appreciation of the world as it is.
It even enhances the experience.
I have no idea why this is so hard to understand for Tiribulus. No idea at all, lol.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
You know you don’t know and aren’t looking towards religious beliefs to quell uncertainty because that uncertainty does not interfere with your appreciation of the world as it is.
It even enhances the experience.
I have no idea why this is so hard to understand for Tiribulus. No idea at all, lol.[/quote]
That’s a good rehash of my post.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
It’s also “natural” to assume the Earth is flat, but with a proper education it’s easy to see that this isn’t true. Humans are the most altricial animals on the planet which gives us the ability to supercede our superstitious tendencies. [/quote]
Uh, not really, no. You missed the point apparently.[/quote]
Uh, yeah really. You missed my point, it seems. From our perspective the Earth looks flat so it’s natural to assume so. Also, from our perspective, life and the natural universe looks impossible without a central planner. In both cases a greater education brings light to such things as the Earth’s shape or how weather works etc.
It’s only natural to believe in God to the extent that you are uncomfortable with what you don’t understand. [/quote]
That’s not the point at all. That’s like saying ‘yuck!’ to broccoli is human nature, and it is. But this is referring to intrinsic human behavior, not a lack of education. You did not read the article or you would not have posted this.
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Wrong. Coming to a specious conclusion about ones environment is not analogous to ones personal dislike of broccoli. You can’t educate yourself into having different taste buds, but it’s hardly impossible to learn how weather works or what the earth is shaped like.
For example, babies are born with specific tastes (even though they will probably change over time as their senses develop), but no baby is born assuming some sort of providence is responsible for everything. This idea was invented by men in order to establish a sense of security for themselves.
I am aware, however, that there are those with a specific gene which makes them more likely to believe in God than others, but again we are the most altricial animals in existence (that we know of) and therefore are able to supersede such flaws via education. [/quote]
But that is not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is a predisposition to religious belief. Coming to a false conclusion based purely on sensory perception has nothing to do with the conversation. I am all over that senses are deceptive. Deductive reality is the only thing you can prove is real. [/quote]
I know you’re talking about a predisposition to religious belief. I’m saying that I believe it to be a psychological thing, but whether it is genetic or psychological it can be overcome by education[/quote]
Education of what? You have conclusive proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that God does not exist and all religion is bunk?
Sound more like you prefer to brain wash people in to thinking as you do…Yes, I know your going to call religion brain washing, but how is what you propose any different?[/quote]
… I’ve given you specific examples of what sort of education I’m talking about -_-
You’re too quick to judge me. It is a flaw not because of the conclusion, but because it is a position taken by default. No (conscious) thought has gone into it. I would say it is a flaw to assume a God is impossible without giving it any real thought. The point is intelligence, not the conclusion.
Granted, while I do recognize the possibility of God (however you define this), I don’t believe there is a God and I do think your church is a brain washing anti-intelligence cartel built on a hierarchy of ignorance
. [/quote]
Everybody starts with a position. And I am confused on what you want to educate people of then? You gotta start somewhere.[/quote]
No, everyone does not start out with a position. An infant has no conception of theism or atheism, they have no opinion on it. They can’t even be called agnostic because the question doesn’t exist in them. Besides, my point is taking a position on God without putting any real thought into it is a mistake, regardless of the conclusion. The point is intelligence.
As for something a little more ad-hoc - you can educate someone out of any given theistic religion by teaching them about the Earth’s shape, meteorology, or basic biology. While it’s rational to be open to the concept of God, it’s logical to hold the position there is no God given the lack of (veracious) evidense.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< The way you latch on to what you perceive as a ‘weakness’ reminded me of the good 'ol popey.[/quote]In the unbelieving world I see nothing BUT weakness Ephrem ol buddy ol pal. Unlike the ol pontiff who… nevermind.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< I have no idea why this is so hard to understand for Tiribulus. No idea at all, lol.[/quote]Ohhhh yes you do. But fair enough for now. If you really profess your ultimately uncertain life satisfactory then what can I say? This’ll definitely be revisited though, because I don’t buy this for a second from either one of you, both of which I happen to like very much BTW. Even though you talk mean to me sometimes sniff sniff =[ My friend the Finn here doesn’t though.
Why can’t you accept that we find an uncertain life satisfactory? Aside from trying to save our immortal souls, i mean.
Because I have it on good authority from your creator that thou art propagating a self deceptive falsehood in the name of escaping responsibility to Him. Lemme get my helmet on before I say this to you Eph, there we go, but put yourself in my position. (Ducks, even with the helmet on) What if you really believed that people you care about were headed for eternal destruction and you knew the only way for them to be saved from that?
Yes, I’m guilty of toying with folks from time to time, but it’s always to make a point. This is not a game to me. I want everybody I see to be my brothers and sisters in Christ and to know the certainty, security, love and freedom that’s been so graciously showered upon me. I know I’m not going to get that, but I don’t know who Christ’s elect are so I treat everybody as if they were. I don’t (usually) try to aggravate anybody, but telling people they’re wrong… about everything is going to do that and I’m willing because I love them. They’re not black, white, latino, arab, asian, male, female, gay, straight, liberal, conservative, American, European etc. to me. They’re precious lost souls created in my Father’s image.
I am not influenced by what you or anybody else thinks about any of that. That’s why.
I can understand why you want to save us if you believe what you believe, that’s not the problem.
It’s dismissing what’s real for us/me, that an uncertain life is satisfactory, is what i don’t get.
It’s similar to me saying that i don’t mind having grey hair, and you saying, “yes, you do mind having grey hair.”
Well, I’ve tried to explain my point of view and show that it is satisfactory, at least for me and eph, that’s all I can do. Let’s talk religion and worldviews again later, take care.
@ kaaleppi: Having reread my post to you I want to apologize if I implied anything derogatory by my not being able to guess your being as old as I was. I sincerely got it in my head somewhere along the way that you were like in your 20’s or something. You have not acted in any sort of immature manner to make me think that. I wanted to clarify that.
[quote]ephrem wrote:I can understand why you want to save us if you believe what you believe, that’s not the problem. >>>[/quote]OK.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< It’s dismissing what’s real for us/me, that an uncertain life is satisfactory, is what i don’t get. >>>[/quote]Ephrem… my dear friend. This is like saying “I can understand you wanting to jump in and save us from drowning, but I just don’t get why you can’t accept that we like it at the bottom of the ocean.” From my vantage point I see people with their arms defiantly folded across their chest, hair floating around, scowl on their face, bubbling away about how they’re not at the bottom of the ocean and even if they are, that is preferable to surrendering to rescue because they think they’re freer down there than in the arms of their own creator. Precisely biblical.