[quote]beebuddy wrote:
The burden of proof has always been on religionists and they’ve always come up short.[/quote]
So what came before the Big Bang? Religion is just another theory.
Creationism is still wishful thinking though.
^ thats called being catholic
lol jk
Christianity is started to make it very clear that you are not Christian because your parents were…you have to live your life as a Christian…its not a title you inherit from your parents
[quote]bluefloyd wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
This may cause a bit of ill feeling ,but, we are all entitled to an opinion.
I, personally find the idea of religion as a cop out. A way and excuse for people to justify there actions and the way they live there lives.
I have no problem with admitting that it does good. It encourages values and so on and helps people get through life.
I have a problem with it being used as an EXCUSE for a persons actions or reasonings when it impacts upon another’s life and exsistence.
I wont “preach” so to speak, as i personally don’t follow any beliefs other than those that i have learnt through life.
I am interested in others points of view. And, PLEASE!!! don’t turn this into an us verses them forum. I am looking for opinions and points of view only. I’m not here to judge or persecute.
You say you don’t follow any beliefs other than those that you have learnt through life? How is being religious and using the teachings from religion used in daily life as a belief system any different from your own?
If people are religious, assuming they are performing good acts such as what the teachings were intended for, how is that a negative quality pertaining to being used as an EXCUSE for a persons actions or reasonings.
Don’t blame the system as a whole when individuals abuse it. You don’t blame all arabs for being terrorists, so why blame religion and religious people for negative qualities as well?
[/quote]
Thats not what i am saying at all. My problem is with religion being used to justify the slaughtering of people because they have different beliefs.
I mentioned that it has a good effect on peoples lives in general. It is the pack mentality that forms when one religion see’s another attacking its beliefs so it retaliates under the guise of protecting there rights and beliefs when if you break it down, they are no better than the so called attackers that they are defending against
Your comment about my life experiences being no different to believing in a religion i cant agree with. My life is what it is because i chose my own path after being shown my options. Which included religion. Of course its different, i dont follow a book or the sayings of one particular person and their beliefs.
In a sense the laws of the country that you live in are a religion. they ask you to do as they say or you will reap the consequences…no matter where we turn we are being preached to.
[quote]Petermus wrote:
^ thats called being catholic
lol jk
Christianity is started to make it very clear that you are not Christian because your parents were…you have to live your life as a Christian…its not a title you inherit from your parents[/quote]
All religions state that, don’t they? Well… with maybe one exception I won’t name for fear of this thread being hijacked.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
I have a problem with it being used as an EXCUSE for a persons actions or reasonings when it impacts upon another’s life and exsistence.
In a good way or bad way? Be specific. I’m going to assume in a bad way (for the most part).
We all make our own decisions and have to live with them.
Karma ftw.[/quote]
Yes in a bad way. But then i would be a hypocrite if i said i dont mind if it impacts in a good way.
I agree with you.
we are who we are because that is how we have decided to live…with or without religion.
“Do unto others as you would have other do unto you”
I thinks thats right. I agree with this to an extent.
What i dont agree with is that it is true only because a deity said so…
Why do people have to revere this “being” or what ever they believe.
Why can it not just be so!
[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
Thats not what i am saying at all. My problem is with religion being used to justify the slaughtering of people because they have different beliefs.
I mentioned that it has a good effect on peoples lives in general. It is the pack mentality that forms when one religion see’s another attacking its beliefs so it retaliates under the guise of protecting there rights and beliefs when if you break it down, they are no better than the so called attackers that they are defending against
Your comment about my life experiences being no different to believing in a religion i cant agree with. My life is what it is because i chose my own path after being shown my options. Which included religion. Of course its different, i dont follow a book or the sayings of one particular person and their beliefs.
In a sense the laws of the country that you live in are a religion. they ask you to do as they say or you will reap the consequences…no matter where we turn we are being preached to.[/quote]
Religious beliefs are a popular excuse. So is culture. Unfortunately, we live in a world that lacks personal responsibility. You’re from NZ, look at what Hone Harawira says about the judge that sent someone to jail for tagging.
“Look at that dickhead of a judge who sent that kid to jail for tagging… he doesn’t understand Maori culture”
WTF? Defacing public property is culture?!
Laws are a joke too, especially where we’re from mate. (cough anti-smacking bill cough)
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
I remember reading somewhere (I think it was Thomas Browne in Religio Medici) that being an “atheist” (if that’s what the OP is saying) is quite impossible, on the following reasoning: every single one of us holds something of “ultimate concern.” Everyone.
Thing is, whatever you hold as an “ultimate concern” is your God. It might be a “false” God. It might be a harmful God. You might worship it unconsciously. But it is your God.
Religion, however, is just an accumulated wisdom about what & how to worship.
Why you think this is brainwashing is a little odd actually.
It seems to me that religion prevents “brainwashing” so that one doesn’t fall into the secularist trap of believing that he is “following his own drummer,” when in fact he has been all along - unconsciously or not - worshipping any number of things with a zeal that looks very much like a religious fanatic: money, power, one’s own body, one’s self, one’s children, the environment, et cetera.
[/quote]
This will be a dangerous statement but…Would that not mean that i consider myself a “God” just because i want to stay healthy so i can enjoy my chosen joys in life? Just so i will be around to teach my kids to make their own mistakes and learn from them if that is how they wish to live?
You could say that “Athiests” are no more than people who cant make up their minds about who and what to believe in. But they may be people who only need to believe in themselves to get through life.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
I remember reading somewhere (I think it was Thomas Browne in Religio Medici) that being an “atheist” (if that’s what the OP is saying) is quite impossible, on the following reasoning: every single one of us holds something of “ultimate concern.” Everyone.
Thing is, whatever you hold as an “ultimate concern” is your God. It might be a “false” God. It might be a harmful God. You might worship it unconsciously. But it is your God.
Religion, however, is just an accumulated wisdom about what & how to worship.
Why you think this is brainwashing is a little odd actually.
It seems to me that religion prevents “brainwashing” so that one doesn’t fall into the secularist trap of believing that he is “following his own drummer,” when in fact he has been all along - unconsciously or not - worshipping any number of things with a zeal that looks very much like a religious fanatic: money, power, one’s own body, one’s self, one’s children, the environment, et cetera.
I also agree with the above that this talk of “ultimate concern” doesn’t quite get anywhere.
i’ve always been annoyed by the religious (which, this being a western culture generally means christians) who try and pull “trump cards” like these. it is of course possible to be an atheist–the atheist is simply someone who denies the existence of a supernatural god (to put it crudely). of course, one can give some sort of straw man argument that well of course the atheist must live for SOMETHING, and thus that that something is their god. as the above poster said though, this is meaningless, as it stretches the meaning of god beyond what the atheist ever intended. of course, the atheist can nod their head and agree that they to have a “god”–but this brings them no closer to admitting theism.
and this thing about the atheist being “brainwashed” is equally as silly. in this respect, the primary difference between the atheist and the christian is that the atheist is free to change their mind without being self contradictory. the atheist is far more intellectually free then the christian, who generally asserts to already know the absolute truth. the only way to damn the atheist on this point is to again build up a straw man argument, and argue that since the athiest can’t really be absolutely “free”, that he isn’t free at all. the atheist is far more free then the theist.
finally, my last thoughts on the topic is… that atheism is as silly as theism. perhaps the better approach is to be agnostic and simply realize that for the most part, talk of the religious and supernatural is irrelevant to current issues (despite what the theist may claim). (i realize this is a large claim, one that i cannot support right now)[/quote]
Well said…
[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
Yes in a bad way. But then i would be a hypocrite if i said i dont mind if it impacts in a good way.
I agree with you.
we are who we are because that is how we have decided to live…with or without religion.
“Do unto others as you would have other do unto you”
I thinks thats right. I agree with this to an extent.
What i dont agree with is that it is true only because a deity said so…
Why do people have to revere this “being” or what ever they believe.
Why can it not just be so![/quote]
… well… if it has a positive effect, there is nothing bad about that. And I think the Golden Rule is the one and only rule that matters.
Maybe that’s God?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Agnosticism is a cop-out – as if there were any question as to the possibility of “knowing” God. Of course God is unknowable – isn’t this why such knowledge is more commonly referred to as having faith?
One either has faith in the existence of a higher power or one does not. If one questions the existence of god by taking the agnostic position one is by default an atheist. Having faith necessarily means that the position is unquestionable – hence not agnostic – or else it couldn’t be faith.[/quote]
But to some they dont question it.
It doesn’t even warrant questioning because it has no meaning to them…it just isn’t necessary to live their lives
[quote]Perfectcircle wrote:
bluefloyd wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
Thats not what i am saying at all. My problem is with religion being used to justify the slaughtering of people because they have different beliefs.
I mentioned that it has a good effect on peoples lives in general. It is the pack mentality that forms when one religion see’s another attacking its beliefs so it retaliates under the guise of protecting there rights and beliefs when if you break it down, they are no better than the so called attackers that they are defending against
Your comment about my life experiences being no different to believing in a religion i cant agree with. My life is what it is because i chose my own path after being shown my options. Which included religion. Of course its different, i dont follow a book or the sayings of one particular person and their beliefs.
In a sense the laws of the country that you live in are a religion. they ask you to do as they say or you will reap the consequences…no matter where we turn we are being preached to.[/quote]
If your afraid of the pack mentality that forms for retaliation purposes, I wouldn’t argue against religion as being the cause, more merely used as a tool. But if used in that instance, it is being used in the wrong sense.
Otherwords, I’ll say “guns dont kill people, people kill people” and “religion doesnt kill people, people kill people”, while you’ll say “guns kill people” and “religion kills people”. just because something is used as a tool, it doesn’t mean it is to blame, espically when the majority of religions preach against the negative actions that some take advantage of.
In your second paragraph your implying that if you follow a book or sayings of one particular person your not open to other paths. Why wouldn’t you be, just because your part of a religion doesnt mean you don’t choose with your free will and reason to follow that religion. Just like you choose to not follow it.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Thus, God is knowable, for I know many things about God, and men who study God know many more things about him then I. [/quote]
But how did you come across this knowledge and what makes you so sure that it is so?
You say you dont know who or what “God” is but you still know he exsists. What makes you so sure??
I take it that you believe in some form of religion.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
This may cause a bit of ill feeling ,but, we are all entitled to an opinion.
I, personally find the idea of religion as a cop out. A way and excuse for people to justify there actions and the way they live there lives.
I really don’t know, but my general view is that religion isn’t so much a “cop out” in most cases, as it is simply a social thing.
What i mean is that most religious people were born into a religious family, they grew up in the religion, came to adhere to it to some degree, and will thus continue to follow the religion throughout their life if for no other reason then thats what comes naturally. in one way its socially easily to continue the religion, in another way its just natural.
it seems little different then most other cultural things–ie, one eats the general types of foods they were brought up on, wears the general types of cloths, etc…
of course there is deviation everywhere, but we’re talking in generalities here. [/quote]
Quite right…but Im talking in a broader sense. People go to war over religion…do they agree to peace in the end because of that same religion???..Personally i think not.
It would seem that they agree to peace because of the overall devastation that they have caused with their wars. Religion rarely ends the conflict…it is always there in the background, waiting to be used again.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
Thats not what i am saying at all. My problem is with religion being used to justify the slaughtering of people because they have different beliefs.
I mentioned that it has a good effect on peoples lives in general. It is the pack mentality that forms when one religion see’s another attacking its beliefs so it retaliates under the guise of protecting there rights and beliefs when if you break it down, they are no better than the so called attackers that they are defending against
Your comment about my life experiences being no different to believing in a religion i cant agree with. My life is what it is because i chose my own path after being shown my options. Which included religion. Of course its different, i dont follow a book or the sayings of one particular person and their beliefs.
In a sense the laws of the country that you live in are a religion. they ask you to do as they say or you will reap the consequences…no matter where we turn we are being preached to.
Religious beliefs are a popular excuse. So is culture. Unfortunately, we live in a world that lacks personal responsibility. You’re from NZ, look at what Hone Harawira says about the judge that sent someone to jail for tagging.
“Look at that dickhead of a judge who sent that kid to jail for tagging… he doesn’t understand Maori culture”
WTF? Defacing public property is culture?!
Laws are a joke too, especially where we’re from mate. (cough anti-smacking bill cough)[/quote]
I hear ya…thats what i meant by “Law being a form of religion”
You can chose to obey it or not live by it or not.
Our own country is struggling with what is right and wrong and is trying to please all, but is only pissing off most.
Our own cultural problems are being used as an excuse…and it works half the time!! it s a crock…
[quote]bluefloyd wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
bluefloyd wrote:
Perfectcircle wrote:
Thats not what i am saying at all. My problem is with religion being used to justify the slaughtering of people because they have different beliefs.
I mentioned that it has a good effect on peoples lives in general. It is the pack mentality that forms when one religion see’s another attacking its beliefs so it retaliates under the guise of protecting there rights and beliefs when if you break it down, they are no better than the so called attackers that they are defending against
Your comment about my life experiences being no different to believing in a religion i cant agree with. My life is what it is because i chose my own path after being shown my options. Which included religion. Of course its different, i dont follow a book or the sayings of one particular person and their beliefs.
In a sense the laws of the country that you live in are a religion. they ask you to do as they say or you will reap the consequences…no matter where we turn we are being preached to.
If your afraid of the pack mentality that forms for retaliation purposes, I wouldn’t argue against religion as being the cause, more merely used as a tool. But if used in that instance, it is being used in the wrong sense.
Otherwords, I’ll say “guns dont kill people, people kill people” and “religion doesnt kill people, people kill people”, while you’ll say “guns kill people” and “religion kills people”. just because something is used as a tool, it doesn’t mean it is to blame, espically when the majority of religions preach against the negative actions that some take advantage of.
In your second paragraph your implying that if you follow a book or sayings of one particular person your not open to other paths. Why wouldn’t you be, just because your part of a religion doesnt mean you don’t choose with your free will and reason to follow that religion. Just like you choose to not follow it.
[/quote]
There is no fear in my statements, merely observations.
The use of violence in the name of god is an “Excuse” for the actions that they have taken or are about to take.
There are many different levels of belief. Some will follow “The Book” to the letter, some will refer to it and some will merely acknowledge its existence in the hope that in their death they will be accepted into “Heaven”. Choice they make either consciously or not, there is still belief in something more holy than themselves. Why belittle yourself over the unknown???
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Religious beliefs are a popular excuse. So is culture. Unfortunately, we live in a world that lacks personal responsibility. You’re from NZ, look at what Hone Harawira says about the judge that sent someone to jail for tagging.
“Look at that dickhead of a judge who sent that kid to jail for tagging… he doesn’t understand Maori culture”
WTF? Defacing public property is culture?!
Laws are a joke too, especially where we’re from mate. (cough anti-smacking bill cough)[/quote]
I would have to agree with this one. No matter what it is or who we are, it is our nature to try and find excuses for why things happen and why they don’t. It is convenient to believe that something happened because god wanted it to.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
i’ve always been annoyed by the religious (which, this being a western culture generally means christians) who try and pull “trump cards” like these. it is of course possible to be an atheist–the atheist is simply someone who denies the existence of a supernatural god (to put it crudely).
[/quote]
One can deny the “existence” of a supernatural god - and yet, at the same time worship something unconsciously with a fervor and zeal that is precisely religious. Take, say, money: people worship it and attribute to it a power that is - in their minds at least - supernatural in every single way a “God” can be said to be supernatural.
What I am saying is not stretching the meaning of religion at all. It may be “stretching” the meaning of God - or, rather, it may be worshipping false idols. But I don’t see how this is my fault - I’m merely point it out the practice.
^^strawman argument
^^ not an argument.
^^circular reasoning
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here - however, reading you reminds me of how so-called “atheists” are far more intolerant, zealous, unwilling to listen, close-minded, far less intellectually free, and far less intellectual, than the truly religious people I have known.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Agnosticism is a cop-out – as if there were any question as to the possibility of “knowing” God. Of course God is unknowable – isn’t this why such knowledge is more commonly referred to as having faith?
One either has faith in the existence of a higher power or one does not. If one questions the existence of god by taking the agnostic position one is by default an atheist. Having faith necessarily means that the position is unquestionable – hence not agnostic – or else it couldn’t be faith.[/quote]
I agree with this. St. Paul said something like “hope that is seen is not hope.” If faith is based upon “evidence,” it could hardly be said to be “faith” - it would be more like “rational expectation.” lol!
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
having an opinion on an issue and an argument for that position is one thing–but attempting to pull “trump cards” while making wide, sweeping statements that ignore most of the other related positions and arguments is silly. [/quote]
I haven’t the time right now to respond to all of stokedporkypoo’s so-called arguments in all his above posts, but it’s worth bearing in mind that this paragraph of his exactly describes his own method of argumentation.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
At first, I typed out some spiel about how your first assumption–that god was unknowable–was merely that, and assumption. I also talked about how you hadn’t even bothered to differentiate the different ways one might “know” god that are common in both theology and epistemology (ie, like the difference between having acquaintance and knowing facts).
[/quote]
okay, I can’t help it. This is just laughable. WTF are you talking about here? You have only said that Lifty made an “assumption” that God is unknowable. Then, you threw in references to “theology” and “espistemology” in hopes that someone might think you actually know what you’re talking about.
There are many things that you know about God? This is going to be good.
It’s painfully obvious that much of this is indeed “beyond [your] comprehension.” None of what you are saying here is coherent from a theological perspective. Whatever you think you are saying, please don’t delude yourself in believing that you have actually argued something here.
This “thus” here would suggest that you have actually made an argument and are concluding something. LOL! Hilarious.
Now you’re only mocking yourself. It really isn’t fair to be quoting your own self-parodying inanities like this.
More meaningless blather - not even enough to argue with.