Real Purpose of 2nd Amendment?

I recently received an e-mail from Jim Forsythe, a guy contemplating a run for NH’s first congressional district. His position on the purpose of the 2nd Amendment mirrors mine quite nicely:

[i]"Every human being has an individual right to self-defense. This right is not granted by government; it is inherently ours as humans independent of government. We do not give up the right to protect our person, our family, or our property by participating in society or joining in government.


Without the ability to arm ourselves, our right to self-defense means nothing. A small woman armed is the equal of a large man. A nation of armed citizens is more powerful than any tyrant. Only criminals and tyrants need fear armed citizens."[/i]

I like the way he thinks. The 2nd Amendment does not grant me to right to keep and bear arms, it merely codifies it.

Even if the 2nd Amendment is construed to pertain to the militia, it is clear under the 9th and 10th Amendment (9th: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ; 10th: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.), my right (or a feeble old woman’s right) as a human to self defense is preserved.

[quote]GVkid wrote:
I for one, feel a hell of a lot safer knowing that there are law abiding citizens out there that are carrying. Now if we can only have legal citizens carrying on campus, we wouldn’t be having all of these college shootings.

Mikeyali - the SCCC Students for concealed carry on campus which I believe is the organization you were talking about is having a national protest april 21- 25 where all participants carry around their empty holsters in regards to the no concealed carry guns on campus laws/policies.[/quote]

laugh I’ve been carrying an empty holster on campus since just before VT. The amount of venom a guy can get spit on him on campus is staggering.

mike

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:

[i]"Every human being has an individual right to self-defense. This right is not granted by government; it is inherently ours as humans independent of government. We do not give up the right to protect our person, our family, or our property by participating in society or joining in government.


Without the ability to arm ourselves, our right to self-defense means nothing. A small woman armed is the equal of a large man. A nation of armed citizens is more powerful than any tyrant. Only criminals and tyrants need fear armed citizens."[/i]
[/quote]

Couldn’t put it better myself

Hey Mikeyali, don’t mean to hijack the thread, but why Hamilton?

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171 .

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.

Now think about this:
Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80 million!

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

This was posted by a fellow t member a while ago, just some food for thought.

[quote]backstage wrote:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171 .

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.

Now think about this:
Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80 million!

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

This was posted by a fellow t member a while ago, just some food for thought.
[/quote]
…and it is incorrect. The accidental death figure in medical practice is a biased conjecture, and is probably wildly incorrect.

But cute analogy, anyway.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

Hey Mikeyali, don’t mean to hijack the thread, but why Hamilton?[/quote]

That’s a good question. I hope I can supply a satisfactory answer. I’ll try to make this brief, but no one has asked me this question before so I will certainly fail.

I consider myself a Goldwater Republican. I suppose that’s essentially a vigorous libertarian. When I first started down the road to being a libertarian I read a great many people who canonized Jefferson and demonized Hamilton. I was among them. But as I got more and more interested in the politics and the history behind the early republic I ended up reading McCullough’s John Adams. That led me to sympathize much more with federalist thought than before. Then I read Joseph Ellis’s Alexander Hamilton. I figured I should read the flagbearer of federalist thought before completely damning the man. What I read changed my perspective completely.

Hamilton, like myself, feared the masses much more than individual tyrants. He developed that fear by seeing the lawlessness of mobs in colonial America. Hamilton was a man of laws - just laws. While the two men hated each other, that Hamiltonian mentality of justice and law is what led John Adams to defend the British during the Boston Massacre.

When we look around at the world we live in today it’s easy to see that our tyrant isn’t George Bush. It’s George Smith working at the ATF, or George Jones working at the DMV. It’s the thousands of Georges around you that vote for laws every day that infringe upon your rights and it’s the thousands of other Georges that enforce those whether as the lady at the DMV or IRS or as the building inspector.

Hamilton was often accused of being an anglophile and monarchist. This was completely untrue. He was for preventing the power of the people from becoming unlimited. The French Revolution was a contemporary demonstration of democracy out of control for him. For Paine such unrestrained democracy was great…until he found himself awaiting his own execution only to escape by Providence. That helped shake a little sense into him. Jefferson once told Abigail Adams that he’d rather see half of the Earth ravaged than to see the failure of the French Revolution…during the terror.

It was Hamilton who headed the Manumission society calling for abolition. Jefferson KNEW it was wrong, yet kept his slaves. At least Washington freed his and provided them with money upon his death. That isn’t to demonize Jefferson. You simply have to accept him for what he was. He was human, just as Hamilton as he had his affair with Mariah Reynolds.

I still hold a great regard for Jefferson. His picture will certainly find itself as an avatar in the future. Frankly, the guy I most relate to is Adams, with Hamilton inching out Jefferson. They all had great thoughts and were truly part of the greatest generation history has given mankind. Jeffersonian republican thought contended that if it isn’t in the Constitution then the government couldn’t do it. Hamilton said that government can do anything as long as it wasn’t prohibited by the Constitution. Both schools of thought have been grossly violated by our government today.

So in brief, I like Hamilton because under-restrained democracy has put shackles on our lives and liberties. That wasn’t the fault of any particular tyrant (although FDR comes close), but rather the fault of the people, fat, greedy, and asleep at the wheel. Hamilton warned us.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:

Hey Mikeyali, don’t mean to hijack the thread, but why Hamilton?

That’s a good question. I hope I can supply a satisfactory answer. I’ll try to make this brief, but no one has asked me this question before so I will certainly fail.

I consider myself a Goldwater Republican. I suppose that’s essentially a vigorous libertarian. When I first started down the road to being a libertarian I read a great many people who canonized Jefferson and demonized Hamilton. I was among them. But as I got more and more interested in the politics and the history behind the early republic I ended up reading McCullough’s John Adams. That led me to sympathize much more with federalist thought than before. Then I read Joseph Ellis’s Alexander Hamilton. I figured I should read the flagbearer of federalist thought before completely damning the man. What I read changed my perspective completely.

Hamilton, like myself, feared the masses much more than individual tyrants. He developed that fear by seeing the lawlessness of mobs in colonial America. Hamilton was a man of laws - just laws. While the two men hated each other, that Hamiltonian mentality of justice and law is what led John Adams to defend the British during the Boston Massacre.

When we look around at the world we live in today it’s easy to see that our tyrant isn’t George Bush. It’s George Smith working at the ATF, or George Jones working at the DMV. It’s the thousands of Georges around you that vote for laws every day that infringe upon your rights and it’s the thousands of other Georges that enforce those whether as the lady at the DMV or IRS or as the building inspector.

Hamilton was often accused of being an anglophile and monarchist. This was completely untrue. He was for preventing the power of the people from becoming unlimited. The French Revolution was a contemporary demonstration of democracy out of control for him. For Paine such unrestrained democracy was great…until he found himself awaiting his own execution only to escape by Providence. That helped shake a little sense into him. Jefferson once told Abigail Adams that he’d rather see half of the Earth ravaged than to see the failure of the French Revolution…during the terror.

It was Hamilton who headed the Manumission society calling for abolition. Jefferson KNEW it was wrong, yet kept his slaves. At least Washington freed his and provided them with money upon his death. That isn’t to demonize Jefferson. You simply have to accept him for what he was. He was human, just as Hamilton as he had his affair with Mariah Reynolds.

I still hold a great regard for Jefferson. His picture will certainly find itself as an avatar in the future. Frankly, the guy I most relate to is Adams, with Hamilton inching out Jefferson. They all had great thoughts and were truly part of the greatest generation history has given mankind. Jeffersonian republican thought contended that if it isn’t in the Constitution then the government couldn’t do it. Hamilton said that government can do anything as long as it wasn’t prohibited by the Constitution. Both schools of thought have been grossly violated by our government today.

So in brief, I like Hamilton because under-restrained democracy has put shackles on our lives and liberties. That wasn’t the fault of any particular tyrant (although FDR comes close), but rather the fault of the people, fat, greedy, and asleep at the wheel. Hamilton warned us.

mike [/quote]

That’s well said. I always like Jefferson’s ideals, but he was far too sheltered from life. These days he would be considered an ivory tower intellectual. Franklin, Adams, and Hamilton pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, so I think their attitudes were tempered by a more realistic veiw of human nature.

[quote]backstage wrote:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171 .

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.

Now think about this:
Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80 million!

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

This was posted by a fellow t member a while ago, just some food for thought.
[/quote]

Between the doctors and the lawyers, I’d say that the difference between them is narrowing.

The doctor who prescribes a med for you gets a kickback from Big Pharma. The doc who says your kid needs an operation needs to make a payment on their vacation home.

Most doctors and most lawyers are crooks, plain and simple.

[quote]backstage wrote:
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

[/quote]

I fucking knew it!!

id be the on the front lines and the first to die in a war against the govt. but dont tell them i said that

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
I actually think the antis have a bad case of projection. About a month ago I went to a discussion on carrying on campus. Those students against it were much ruder than those for it. At the very end I was talking to my friend who was a panelist on the “for” side and a girl came over to him and started to bitch him out telling him that he needed to, “clean the wax out of his ears so he might learn something.” My wife interjected and this lady turned into a psycho bitch. She was on the verge of punching someone when her boyfriend had to actually pick her up and take her away.

I think people like this recognize that they are out of control and might shoot someone when they are angry…thus all people are this way.

mike[/quote]

It’s been my experience that liberals are this way on pretty much any political discussion. I know this is a gross generalization, but I did say ‘in my experience.’

It also amazes me how common sense disappears during these discussions(2nd Amendment rights). The vast majority of liberal arguments are centered on hypotheticals, and scenarios that are already illegal(ie, kids getting ahold of guns, felons owning guns, etc.), whereas the conservative side centers on facts–reductions in crime coinciding with less gun restriction.

I have to agree with the projection theory.

I agree. Actually I have a meeting with the Dean at my college tomorrow about allowing students to carry on campus. I have a feeling I’m going to run into a lot of these “hypotheticals” since I’m at a very liberal college with an excellent Police academy. (No idea how that worked out) But most of the faculty here are very liberal.

A paper from the 90s, but it’s not as if the 2nd Amendment has changed since then:

Abstract:

This Article surveys case law, history, and scholarship on the Second Amendment. Examining both “individual right” and “collective right” theorists, it synthesizes a so-called “Standard Model” of Second Amendment interpretation, and briefly addresses questions of what weapons might be protected under a more expansive treatment of the Second Amendment than exists today.

[quote]A paper from the 90s, but it’s not as if the 2nd Amendment has changed since then:

Abstract:

This Article surveys case law, history, and scholarship on the Second Amendment. Examining both “individual right” and “collective right” theorists, it synthesizes a so-called “Standard Model” of Second Amendment interpretation, and briefly addresses questions of what weapons might be protected under a more expansive treatment of the Second Amendment than exists today. [/quote]

Now remember, the Constitution is a living document. It’s meaning might have changed since then in a way that only left-wing jurists can perceive.

If it is not the job of the police to protect you(Proven in the case of Some Asshole Vs The Asshole PD), and you aren’t allowed the means to protect yourself, are you supposed to just not care if someone wants to hurt you? What is the deal with that?

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
If it is not the job of the police to protect you(Proven in the case of Some Asshole Vs The Asshole PD), and you aren’t allowed the means to protect yourself, are you supposed to just not care if someone wants to hurt you? What is the deal with that?[/quote]

You might be thinking of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, a US Supreme Court decision.