Agree in part, but from my standpoint as a more conservative white male I am not sure how much flows into a truly “extreme response” vs. just not wanting to talk with people who will deride me as “human trash” (real phrase) for having a different political perspective and beliefs from them.
Frankly I have too many things in my life to want to waste time on people like that, so they earn a “Fuck you”.
In some ways it reminds me of MLK vs Malcolm X. MLK stirred racial tensions, but in a way that put the goal, the message, and the putcome at the center. Malcolm X–to my mind anyway–stirred tensions but in a way that detracted from conversation.
I’d be interested in your unique perspective on X and MLK because X has always troubled me even as he’s been looked up to by many.
Thanks for coming to PWI because you have a thoughtful new perspective and I very much value it and enjoy reading it. It makes me think, which is what I want.
Thank you for thinking so heavily on it as well…I know it takes me at least a 3 hours of typing, doing other stuff, and coming back to it, to figure this all out.
The first Nobel Peace Prize awarded to online message board posters…I’m down haha!
I agree wholeheartedly with this. People can’t take you seriously when you cry bigotry at every turn. I don’t blame you I wouldn’t waste my time either. I do think there are big disconnects between the two demographics however. For example: If you don’t get a job you apply for, or don’t even get an interview, you would probably think “Well I just wasn’t good enough, or damn there must have been better applicants.” My friend (whose name is Cra’Tisha but goes by Tisha and puts Tisha on her resume) has a Master’s degree in Graphic Design from Clemson and struggled to find a job for like 4-6 months shortly after finishing school. When she doesn’t get an interview, or doesn’t get a job she interviewed for she also thinks “Well I wasn’t good enough” or “damn there were better applicants.” But then she also has those thoughts creep into her mind of “What if they didn’t chose me because I was Black?” or “They thought my name was ‘too Black’ or ‘too ghetto’ and didn’t interview me.” Because multiple studies have found that people with “Black sounding names” don’t get interviewed as much as those with “White sounding names.”
These are the sort of things we deal with internally…but ultimately never know what caused us to not get the interview or get the job…and this can be extrapolated to many walks of life. This is why encouraging and teaching Entrepreneurship will solve a lot of problems in our community, because we tend to hire people who remind us of ourselves.
As we continue to progress forward…hopefully this won’t be as much of a problem.
I think they were fighting for the same thing, but in a different way. They were both fighting for better treatment for Black folks. MLK – through integration and understanding that we are no different than you guys. He allied with whoever would ally with us, and derived his methods from Gandhi’s liberation of Indians from the Brits. Essentially, taking the moral high ground and then being sprayed with water hoses, having dogs bite you, being beaten by people relentlessly, shows that you’re not worthy of said treat mentioned because you don’t respond with violence. MLK also talked about cooperative economics some, and as he got closer to his death in 1968, was widely unpopular because of this - along with an increasingly more radical message. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 64 and people were like : “Why is he still mad?” but he understood that cooperative economics would be the only route to self-sufficiency and self-determinism. Many of the people who helped get the Civil Rights Act passed did not understand this, because they had just fought for the right to shop at White businesses and go to White Schools…now he’s talking about Black Businesses and Black Schools? wtf! This also scared the fuck out of J Edgar Hoover and the FBI, along with rumors he was a communist - which led to him infiltrating the movement and trying his best to destroy it. Ultimately his assassination made him a martyr but killed the movement.
Malcom X - Ah the beloved Malcom X. He was the “Nat Turner” of his day. I think what troubled people about him was the phrase “By Any Means Necessary.”
Malcolm X and The Nation of Islam were prepared to defend themselves and their communities with weapons similar to The Black Panthers…and this scared the crap out of White People and J Edgar Hoover’s FBI…but if you look at Rural White Guys, they all have guns, and hold down places like Ruby Ridge and that Wildlife Refuge in Oregon to this day…
At the time, there was still fear that Black people would revolt and attack Whites because of some deeply held grudge for Slavery, Jim Crow, etc.
But, you never saw people from The Nation of Islam or The Black Panthers just attack random White Folks like the KKK did to Black Folks…both groups truly wanted to create a Black Nation-State inside of the US…and J Edgar Hoover was like “Fuck That” thus COINTELPRO infiltrated and destroyed both of them. In fact, shortly before his death there is a statistic that over half of Malcolm X’s confidants were FBI informants.
He was about creating black communities and segregation by choice, similar to Chinese,Jewish, and Arab immigrants where they live amongst themselves, shop at their own businesses, educate their own children, and survive in a self-deterministic, self-sufficient fashion.
Unfortunately for us, J Edgar Hoover’s FBI was there mostly to prevent any possible uprising of any minority group (See the Native American liberation movement, Gay Right’s Movement, and the Chicano Movement)…I think mostly due to the fear of a push for communism by multiple groups uniting…but at that time, with the demographics of this country, every minority could have voted for a communist and you would have still needed over 50% of the White population to vote for that communist as well.
I admire Malcolm X and MLK for their courage and desire for empowerment, but MLK and integration ended up causing us to lose most of our businesses and institutions…at the price of integration. Prior to integration, there were massive Black Life Insurance companies, Many more Black-owned banks than the 14 that still exist today, and in general, more Black entrepreneurship, but once we were allowed to shop at White businesses our people assumed that those businesses were better (and many still do to this day sadly…) and stopped valuing entrepreneurship, helping your fellow man, creating your own jobs, etc…
Malcolm X was unapologetically Black…which encouraged people to not see themselves as solely descendants of slaves destined for a lifetime of poverty and subservience. I think that is important even today – where many Black Americans don’t know of any heritage prior to slavery and believe that we can’t do for ourselves without the democrats help. I also think the Nation of Islam today – is too radical in terms of their despise for “The White Man” and that Malcolm X was moving away from that prior to his assassination by Nation of Islam members. I don’t hate White people and I try my best not to have prejudice, but I do want Black Folks to succeed via their own will and be treated equally by the laws and institutions of this country, similar to Malcolm X’s views. We are still fighting for that.
I’m glad to be here, for the exact same reasons…the exchange of ideas and perspectives helps me understand the world and people opposing my views much better…if we could get everyone to do this, our country would be in a much better place regardless of how much we may disagree.
Ok–yes. Very much so, and I agree with that. I think huge disconnects are absolutely central to the problems at hand because they are never talked THROUGH in ‘discussion mode’ with an eye towards understanding the other perspective…but are always talked AT (or yelled at) in an adversarial/political mode. I particularly agree with your description of that creeping thought in the back of your head about “what if”. Certainly. 100%.
Regarding the studies–I am equivocal on that. This is an aside because I know we are not arguing about them. Not so much equivocal because I disagree with the plausibility of the result or hypothesis, but because my job is/has been essentially research based (biochemistry) and I know exactly how flabby a lot of the social science “studies” can be–not that they are wrong per se, but not very resilient methodically. Lay people won’t know any of that–and it is somewhat of a dealbreaker to try to explain, sort of like trying to explain a long joke that nobody got. You get about the same reactions in both cases lol. Add on top of that the inherent “grayness” that is research in all fields.
I know you didn’t bring the link up in order make any argument and just did it to illustrate the issue. So, not a critique on the politifact link so much as my general observations of social science research in all areas.
Absolutely. Agree on both parts, and I really wish entrepreneurship and basic home accounting (like balancing check books or bank accounts) was mandatory in high schools.
Another aside–I think the tendency to hire/hang out/socialize/respect/talk with people who remind us of ourselves is an innate human quality. Not inherently bad (there are a lot of good reasons I want to talk with people like me, especially when it comes to being ‘in sync’), but certainly one that CAN be bad if we allow it to be. It leads very quickly down into echo chamber land, not to mention that being able to work collegially with people unlike ourselves is a necessary life skill!
Thanks VERY much for your take on MLK vs X. I always knew they were fighting for the same thing, and am pretty well read up on MLK, but Malcolm X always seemed…I dunno, adversarial (“The White Man” thing that you referenced). But I found your reply very thought provoking. I’ll have to think some more about this.
Totally, totally with you on all that. That’s why I’m asking the question to you, because when I go back and read and watch Malcolm, I get much more than that from him and it bothers me. Of course it’s hard to say whether it’s me or whatnot.
This is very thought provoking. I can see that happening. I wonder, personally, how much was the integration and how much was the rapid cultural change and upheaval of the late 60s/70s, Great Society, War on Drugs, and increasing single motherhood. In other words, valuing helping your fellow man, creating your own jobs, etc. to me is centered in a morality primarily rather than the results of integration. However, that is a very very interesting concept that I need to think about more.
Yes–and it’s frankly been a while since we had any intelligent views that differed from familiar old battle lines here. Mostly the ‘differing views’ end up being conspiracy theory minded or nearly so, or just naked partisanship. I’m not into either lol.
I read a quote a long time ago on conversation which I work on consistently making central to my interactions with people (however failingly executed):
“Most often in communication, the goal is agreement. But if our goal is agreement, then what happens when we disagree? I must persuade you to agree with me, or vice versa. But unfortunately, persuasion has a way of slipping into pressure, manipulation, and control…The First Goal of conversation is Understanding; not Agreement.” Danny Silk
Haha…I follow you. It’s always easier to see results when you’re not blinded and social sciences, unless you’re in a setting like the Stanford experiment; i.e well controlled, you’re right…
You’d be surprised to know I actually have two biochemistry publications to my name I could never hold myself up to be someone such as yourself, but I did a little something.
The average financial literacy level in this country is dirt poor…agree wholeheartedly
Absolutely true.
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Thanks VERY much for your take on MLK vs X. I always knew they were fighting for the same thing, and am pretty well read up on MLK, but Malcolm X always seemed…I dunno, adversarial (“The White Man” thing that you referenced). But I found your reply very thought provoking. I’ll have to think some more about this.
If you have time, read his autobiography…I think you’ll like it…if you haven’t already.
I’ll also say, that people like Malcolm X and MLK grew up in a different time than myself and I imagine it would be a-lot easier to be much angrier/prejudice against “The White Man.” But you’re welcome, they’re just two sides of a coin.
And it could definitely be centered in morality as well. It could be that slaves were divided–and–conquered regularly in order to maintain order (since there were many more of them than the owner/overseers) and thus it evolved biologically that we should only lookout for ourselves…it’s not grounded in our principles as it would be to an East Asian immigrant or a Jew. But I find that hard to believe because most of the people in my life would give the shirt off their back for you (Black, White, Asian) Whoever.
I do think the war on drugs and single motherhood could have had a negative effect, mostly because you’re more so focused on surviving.
I mean when crack came through the hood, something like 85% of men arrested for crack were black… let us not forget mandatory minimums and that 1 gram of crack got you the same amount of time as 100 grams of Cocaine, so you’re going away for a long fucking time…and when you get out?? Very likely you have few opportunities, and you probably end up back in. And let us factor in the amount that died/got locked up in the violent acts of trafficking - I don’t have a stat for that one…but it was heavily related to violent crime and risky sexual behavior.
I think that had a HUGE impact on single motherhood, and then hip hop changed from the beautiful, protestful art that it was–to the shit that is on the radio today. There are many great artists still out that create true art, but they don’t get played on the radio.
Further, suburban white kids listen more than kids in the hood do, but it shapes our reality, whereas they don’t live in that environment (generally speaking). That nonsense has hurt our communities hard, and contributes directly to the single mother problem. Most artists are Black, but most executives/label owners are Jewish (plot twist!)
The Black Artist talk the nonsense and don’t even truly reap the benefits, a lot of them are in debt trying to fake a lifestyle…like damn, at least own the label and distribution.
If I were a person that was poor, trying to survive, I’m buying shit wherever it is cheapest. Generally speaking, if you own a small business competing against wal-mart or whoever, their prices are gonna be cheaper…so that truly could have been the issue. There are many in the Black middle class like my parents, but I rarely heard my parents say anything about cooperative economics until I was in high school and even then, they weren’t riding across town to buy fruit from the Black lady selling it. So I really don’t know…but it is interesting.
My parents actually tried their best to be race-neutral, I think they wanted us to grow up as least prejudiced as possible…whereas my wife’s Dad grew up in Kannapolis,NC where he experienced horrible racial tensions and is VERY prejudice, and thus she is too…it really shows that prejudice is learned. Anyways that was a long aside to your statement…but yeah. Lol
Stephen Covey - 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Listen to Understand - then respond… I’m pretty sure that is one of them, though probably not phrased in that manner.
It can be hard! Especially when someone is getting visibly upset.
