Questions for Atheist in America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

Unless you define God as eternal, uncaused and uncontingent. Which is as impossible to fathom as an uncaused and uncontingent universe.

There is no escaping the fact that, within the limits of human reason, the fact of existence is irreconcilable with the laws of the universe.

62

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

No, the concept of a god is something that is outside of the universe. You cannot apply constraints of the universe to something outside it. It is flawed logic.[/quote]

True. But a God outside of the universe is difficult, perhaps impossible, to truly comprehend. We can say the words, but we cannot truly understand what something outside of our reality is.

63

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

No, the concept of a god is something that is outside of the universe. You cannot apply constraints of the universe to something outside it. It is flawed logic.[/quote]

True. But a God outside of the universe is difficult, perhaps impossible, to truly comprehend. We can say the words, but we cannot truly understand what something outside of our reality is.[/quote]

Yup. And?

64

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

No, the concept of a god is something that is outside of the universe. You cannot apply constraints of the universe to something outside it. It is flawed logic.[/quote]

True. But a God outside of the universe is difficult, perhaps impossible, to truly comprehend. We can say the words, but we cannot truly understand what something outside of our reality is.[/quote]

Yup. And?[/quote]

And: you can use reason to argue for the existence of God. It can be extremely convincing. But in the end, whether you boil the nature of the universe down to theism or atheism, you arrive at a notion that is beyond your ability to comprehend. And so that notion is, in practice, something close to meaningless. You can say it, but you know not what you say.

65

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, without god, discrimination against atheists can’t be called bad.[/quote]

Why is that? Because then everyone would be an atheist?

66

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

No, the concept of a god is something that is outside of the universe. You cannot apply constraints of the universe to something outside it. It is flawed logic.[/quote]

True. But a God outside of the universe is difficult, perhaps impossible, to truly comprehend. We can say the words, but we cannot truly understand what something outside of our reality is.[/quote]

Yup. And?[/quote]

And: you can use reason to argue for the existence of God. It can be extremely convincing. But in the end, whether you boil the nature of the universe down to theism or atheism, you arrive at a notion that is beyond your ability to comprehend. And so that notion is, in practice, something close to meaningless. You can say it, but you know not what you say.[/quote]

Actually, once you acknowledge the possibility of god, all things are possible. Even revaluation.

And not able to fully understand is a long way from meaningless. My dog doesn’t comprehend my existence but our interaction isn’t meaningless to him.

For me, the belief in god also works backwards. Some basic things I have faith in, and accepting those things, god is necessary. I believe in good and evil and love and hate. I believe in things I do know, and from that cannot deny god.

67

[quote]davidcox1 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, without god, discrimination against atheists can’t be called bad.[/quote]

Why is that? Because then everyone would be an atheist?[/quote]

Because in a world without the supernatural good and bad don’t exist. No one outcome can be said to be any better than another.

So, why would an atheist demand equal treatment, when he denies the very thing that defines his right to it?

68

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Your souls will be eternally damned!!! Infidels!! lol

Atheist and have been since a VERY young age.

Good to see some peole of reason on the board.[/quote]

What are ‘people of reason’, exactly? Atheism is incompatible with reason since in it’s most basic form posits that nothingness must necessarily beget something.[/quote]

You’re confusing two different things. Atheism just means you don’t believe in a god or gods. Science is what tells us how things came to be. And science doesn’t teach us that something came from nothing. Science says that something changed into something else. Atheists and believers alike subscribe to what science has to say about the origin of the universe. You don’t have the be an atheist to denounce the prospect that a bearded white guy waived his hands and made everything around us.

69

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]davidcox1 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, without god, discrimination against atheists can’t be called bad.[/quote]

Why is that? Because then everyone would be an atheist?[/quote]

Because in a world without the supernatural good and bad don’t exist. No one outcome can be said to be any better than another.

[/quote]

That’s not true.

Living in a society we would come to the conclusion certain acts are good and others are bad. I don’t want to have my possessions stolen and you don’t either so we would agree stealing is bad and thus enforce a law against theft.

You don’t need some supernatural god to tell you what is good and what is bad.

70

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]davidcox1 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, without god, discrimination against atheists can’t be called bad.[/quote]

Why is that? Because then everyone would be an atheist?[/quote]

Because in a world without the supernatural good and bad don’t exist. No one outcome can be said to be any better than another.

So, why would an atheist demand equal treatment, when he denies the very thing that defines his right to it?[/quote]

Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad. You don’t have to believe in the supernatural to have a sense of what it takes to get along. Babies learn early on what is good behavior (expected) and what is bad, but they couldn’t tell you a thing about religion. Morals don’t come from religion, they come from societal interaction.

71

depending on who i am with i might say that i worship ganesh or someobdy. just to piss them off but they cant say anything or it would be racist. the best way to fight crazy is with more crazy

72

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Actually, once you acknowledge the possibility of god, all things are possible. Even revaluation.

And not able to fully understand is a long way from meaningless. My dog doesn’t comprehend my existence but our interaction isn’t meaningless to him.

For me, the belief in god also works backwards. Some basic things I have faith in, and accepting those things, god is necessary. I believe in good and evil and love and hate. I believe in things I do know, and from that cannot deny god. [/quote]

The rabbit hole of existentialism necessarily leads to something that we cannot truly comprehend and therefore that we cannot fully and unequivocally believe without admitting the fact that we could be entirely wrong. If you do not admit that, you are lying to yourself and everyone else.

Anything but agnosticism is hubristic. Anyone who tells you they know the answers to the great existential questions is either lying or stupid.

73

[quote]eremesu wrote:
depending on who i am with i might say that i worship ganesh or someobdy. just to piss them off but they cant say anything or it would be racist. the best way to fight crazy is with more crazy[/quote]

Sometimes I tell people that I worship Zeus. Just as plausible as Yahweh or God or Allah, in my mind.

74

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Actually, once you acknowledge the possibility of god, all things are possible. Even revaluation.

And not able to fully understand is a long way from meaningless. My dog doesn’t comprehend my existence but our interaction isn’t meaningless to him.

For me, the belief in god also works backwards. Some basic things I have faith in, and accepting those things, god is necessary. I believe in good and evil and love and hate. I believe in things I do know, and from that cannot deny god. [/quote]

The rabbit hole of existentialism necessarily leads to something that we cannot truly comprehend and therefore that we cannot fully and unequivocally believe without admitting the fact that we could be entirely wrong. If you do not admit that, you are lying to yourself and everyone else.

Anything but agnosticism is hubristic. Anyone who tells you they know the answers to the great existential questions is either lying or stupid.[/quote]

My Super-8 ball can answer existential questions with crazy accuracy, just sayin.

75

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Anything but agnosticism is hubristic. [/quote]

I used to feel this way, but now I don’t. I place myself clearly in the atheist camp. I disagree it is hubris to say that there is no evidence of intelligent intervention in our evolution and therefore I don’t believe in a creative intelligence. It is not that I “don’t know” (the definition of agnostic) whether there is a god. I don’t believe in a god or gods because there is no evidence that there is. I guess I’m stupid, because I’m definitely not lying.

Are you agnostic about whether the earth is round (not flat)? If, as I suspect, you know it is round, why is that any different?

76

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Your souls will be eternally damned!!! Infidels!! lol

Atheist and have been since a VERY young age.

Good to see some peole of reason on the board.[/quote]

What are ‘people of reason’, exactly? Atheism is incompatible with reason since in it’s most basic form posits that nothingness must necessarily beget something.[/quote]

As opposed to believing in the fairy tales of the Bible? You call that reasonable?

Atheism is nothing more than a rejection of all super natural claims due to the lack of supporting evidence. Atheists are not claiming to know god doesn’t exist, they just have disbelief in YOUR religious (and other religions) claims.[/quote]

And here you find a favorite stalling and diversionary tactic used on this board. When it comes to Pat (and others), don’t call yourself an atheist, use the term agnostic, as he will argue to death the part about atheists claiming this and that, when in fact most atheists are technically agnostics.

It has been explained over and over the differences between agnostic atheists and just atheists and the reasons for using only the term atheist, yet he persists when he feels backed into a corner. Or when he’s bored, it’s hard to tell anymore.

77

[quote]pat wrote:
No, atheism is a disbelief in the existence of God. What you are referring to as atheism is agnosticism, which treats the position as an unknown.
If you are atheist, you know God doesn’t exist…You just can’t prove it. Nor can you disprove arguments for the existence of God. So it is a faith, a belief with out proof.[/quote]

And so it begins.

78

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Your souls will be eternally damned!!! Infidels!! lol

Atheist and have been since a VERY young age.

Good to see some peole of reason on the board.[/quote]

What are ‘people of reason’, exactly? Atheism is incompatible with reason since in it’s most basic form posits that nothingness must necessarily beget something.[/quote]

As opposed to believing in the fairy tales of the Bible? You call that reasonable?

Atheism is nothing more than a rejection of all super natural claims due to the lack of supporting evidence. Atheists are not claiming to know god doesn’t exist, they just have disbelief in YOUR religious (and other religions) claims.[/quote]

And here you find a favorite stalling and diversionary tactic used on this board. When it comes to Pat (and others), don’t call yourself an atheist, use the term agnostic, as he will argue to death the part about atheists claiming this and that, when in fact most atheists are technically agnostics.

It has been explained over and over the differences between agnostic atheists and just atheists and the reasons for using only the term atheist, yet he persists when he feels backed into a corner. Or when he’s bored, it’s hard to tell anymore.[/quote]

I didn’t know. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have encouraged him with my earlier posts.

79

[quote]davidcox1 wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
Your souls will be eternally damned!!! Infidels!! lol

Atheist and have been since a VERY young age.

Good to see some peole of reason on the board.[/quote]

What are ‘people of reason’, exactly? Atheism is incompatible with reason since in it’s most basic form posits that nothingness must necessarily beget something.[/quote]

As opposed to believing in the fairy tales of the Bible? You call that reasonable?

Atheism is nothing more than a rejection of all super natural claims due to the lack of supporting evidence. Atheists are not claiming to know god doesn’t exist, they just have disbelief in YOUR religious (and other religions) claims.[/quote]

And here you find a favorite stalling and diversionary tactic used on this board. When it comes to Pat (and others), don’t call yourself an atheist, use the term agnostic, as he will argue to death the part about atheists claiming this and that, when in fact most atheists are technically agnostics.

It has been explained over and over the differences between agnostic atheists and just atheists and the reasons for using only the term atheist, yet he persists when he feels backed into a corner. Or when he’s bored, it’s hard to tell anymore.[/quote]

I didn’t know. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have encouraged him with my earlier posts.[/quote]

You’ll find a great many of the posters here claim to want more open discussion, but in reality stick to twisting definitions and playing word games. It would be another matter if it were a poster who hadn’t had the difference explained to them ad nauseum, but it’s the same offenders over and over again.

In Pats defense, I get the feeling he starts out with good intentions, then gets backed into a corner and pulls out this card. Others I feel do it on purpose just to sidetrack the conversation so that there is no serious discussion about religion, as if a bodybuilding website was going to break an institution that is powerfully old.

80

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]talldude wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Lots of things exist outside of time. Cosmology answers the question necessarily. There is nothing, not one tiny thing about the known universe that violates theism in any way. Atheism on the other hand violates everything known about the universe for it requires that randomness and ‘stuff’ exists with out reason or contingency. The problem is, there is not one single solitary shred of evidence to support this assertion. It violates the basic tenets of logic.
[/quote]

The existence of god requires that he spontaneously appeared at some point…you cannot argue that the universe must have been created by a god unless you also accept that by the same logic god must have been created.[/quote]

No, the concept of a god is something that is outside of the universe. You cannot apply constraints of the universe to something outside it. It is flawed logic.[/quote]

It doesn’t matter where god is. If I take your argument, I could say by the same token that our universe came to be as a result of random energy outside of our universe.

If you say that our universe was created by god, but cannot answer where god came from, then you have not answered where the universe came from. If you say that god has always existed, then why is it impossible that our universe has always existed?