[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
By definition, God, or when arguing in this vain I prefer ‘Uncaused-Cause’ is necessarily true because the premises make it so. By definition and uncaused-cause cannot be caused, or it’s not uncaused. If God is this Uncaused-cause, he cannot be caused because it would be impossible for him to be otherwise.
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Oooookkkkay, so I simply postulate that the universe is uncaused and viola, case closed.
Becaaauuuussse, if you say that everything needs a cause and then simply invent an uncaused cause, who has no cause, because that is how you defined him, I can do that too.
You can choose between the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and the universe itself.
Circular reasoning is circular. >>>[/quote]Ultimately I agree. A vanilla uncaused first cause is as good as idolatry by itself. I do exaggerate a bit to make a point. (but just a bit) God is indeed the uncaused first cause of all save for Himself alone. However, meeting unbelievers on their own home turf of autonomous human logic to proclaim theistic “proofs” ultimately ends where we are here every time when confronted by any half competent heathen.
It’s not that the thomistic evidentialsts are morons at all. It’s that their weapons are wholly inadequate. Or more accurately, simply not fitted to the job. This is the result of a deficient view of sin wherein my fellow theists mistakenly believe that there is enough life in their unregenerate opponents so that if only they are presented with a compelling enough intellectual argument they will cry uncle and fall on their face before the thrice holy God and tearfully repent of their rebellion.
This is biblically untrue. They are not sick in need of some intellectual medicine. They are dead, in need of a supernatural resurrection which is available only in the risen Christ who is Himself the second person of the triune Godhead. The only eternally begotten Son of the Father.
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Strawman Tirib…The argument is perfectly linear. You cannot debunk the argument by by calling it a sin and therefore it’s wrong. That’s not the argument. Idolatry is holding something other then God in the same regard as God himself. This is not what this is. This is one piece of the puzzle and a damn important one. It’s the one thing that links everything to God. Uncauased-cause isn’t some thing other than God, but that lies down the road.
If you did some research yourself you realize it’s true. God doesn’t exist in a book, He’s real and his creation reflects that.
I suggest if you want to disprove cosmology, then you do your homework. You don’t want to accidentally deny the truth and reality of God do you? Stubbornness leads to ignorance don’t fall into the trap.
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