[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
What if you are facing multiple unarmed opponents? I had a friend who went to the bar and got into an argument with a guy inside. When he left the bar the guy he argued with came out the bar with a gang of other guys and jumped him. Now if my friend had a pistol and opened fire on the group could that be self defense?[/quote]
No. You can’t shoot people because a group looks threatening. Your life (or another’s) has to be in immediate danger, not “this could escalate into real danger.” Your friend in that situation would have a duty to retread. Only when the potential becomes actual can you use deadly force.
Another way to think about it is, if showing the group you have a weapon could be used as an effective deterrent (and legally it can’t, that’s call brandishing a weapon), then you’re not in a position to use deadly force. Deadly force can only be used after that point, once the other party is actively trying to cause bodily harm. And it has to be in proportion.
So your friend has a gun, and there are six guys. He has a duty to retreat. He either can’t or decides not to. If one of the six guys comes at him whilst the others cheer him on, a man shooting an unarmed man doesn’t cut it for self-defense. Even if his five bros are cheering him and adding to the intimidation factor. [/quote]
I disagree with this in part- while you’re right that he has a duty to retreat, if you are faced with multiple attackers and cannot retreat- i.e. they’ve cornered you or surrounded you, the court case will decide what goes, because it won’t be clear cut one way or another. If a gang of people are coming after you, deadly force may be justified.
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(Legal Disclaimer) I’m not a lawyer.
Lets look at this another way for a moment. The rules of unarmed combat. In a “fair fight” between two individuals who are more or less evenly matched in size you can only use force in proportion to your percieved threat. So if are in a bar and a guy merely pushes you you are going to have a problem if you respond with a maiming or killing technique ie kicking his knee out, gouging an eye out or punching him in the throat. Because the response is out of proportion to the attack.
Now lets say you are attacked by two similarly matched individuals and they are trying to beat you up. Because it is now not a “fair” match because it’s two against one you are going to be allowed more leeway if you use a maiming or killing technique, becaue now the percieved threat is greater. If you are facing three or four or more assailants then your perceived threat increases with each one.
Now lets look at retreat. If you attempt to make a retreat you are going to improve your chances of avoiding legal repercussions because you are trying to deescelate or avoid the situation. If a person pursues you, he then becomes the aggressor because he is not letting it go, so he is going to have more responsibility for what happens next. So if you retreat until you are cornered you have a better chance of getting away with hurting the other guy. So retreat is usually a good idea as it frees up your options of how you respond while increasing your opponents responsibility for what happens.
Now to the guy in the pursued out of a bar scenario. If he pulls a gun out he is in trouble even without shooting anyone, because it is illegal to carry a gun into a place where alcohol is being served even if with a CCW. So even if he makes every effort humanly possible to retreat he is going to have huge problems if he shoots someone.
But four men pursue one out a bar and attack him is a situation where the individual can use a lot of force to defend himself because his percieved danger is enhanced by the multiple opponents. For example let’s say he made it out to his car, got in and was about to start it and drive off when his pursuers caught up, then started to pull him out of his car. If he had a CCW and grabbed a gun from under the seat as they were pulling him out of his car he might be able to get away with shooting one of them because once you are inside your car it is legally similar to being inside your home and he is facing multiple attackers.
My final point is never forget that in any shooting situation you are totally at the mercy of the legal system and no matter how lawfully you have conducted yourself they can cause you a lot of problems if they choose to. The system does not always treat people fairly.
