[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Forbes wrote:
<<< You can’t. Only God knows who they are. And Tirib (once again) explained it better than I.
Explain how I am supposed to follow James 5:14…if I can’t.[/quote]With John14:12:
[quote] 12-Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.[/quote]Elders are fine, James says so, but Jesus also said that whoever believes in Him will do His works.
Explain how you can know that the particular elders of your church that you call on are not undiluted apostate hirelings and hence not hellbound non members of the mystical body of Christ. The first person I ever met, who was also the only one for years, That I was convinced was the recipient of a miracle was in an ariminian pentecostal church. I’ve met a couple more since. One lady in my church has had the sight fully returned to her blind left eye in answer to the prayer of the women’s group laying hands on her.
[/quote]
There definitely have been deceivers in the Catholic Church’s hierarchy. But the beauty of the Church is that it is greater than any one man or group of men. Apostolic tradition and the tenets of the Church protect against heresy becoming main stream.
Miracles happen, and I do not deny God’s power. I repeat my question above. You were quick to cast me to Jesus’s ultimate judgment for saying non-Christian’s may be saved. But isn’t the logical corrollary that there is one and only one true Christian church. How can you say certain aspects are more important than others making salvation available to people who reject XYZ but not to people who reject ABC? [/quote]
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father John 10:38
God still works in us today, and things like healing occur. But they are through natural means.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Forbes wrote:
<<< You can’t. Only God knows who they are. And Tirib (once again) explained it better than I.
Explain how I am supposed to follow James 5:14…if I can’t.[/quote]With John14:12:
[quote] 12-Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.[/quote]Elders are fine, James says so, but Jesus also said that whoever believes in Him will do His works.
Explain how you can know that the particular elders of your church that you call on are not undiluted apostate hirelings and hence not hellbound non members of the mystical body of Christ. The first person I ever met, who was also the only one for years, That I was convinced was the recipient of a miracle was in an ariminian pentecostal church. I’ve met a couple more since. One lady in my church has had the sight fully returned to her blind left eye in answer to the prayer of the women’s group laying hands on her.
[/quote]
Because they have been ordained by the Holy Ghost.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
[/quote]
Incorrect, they still happen today. Apparitions, John Paul II healed a blind man to see, you have the Holy Eucharist miracles, &c.
He also said if you have a faith of a mustard seed you will be able to move mountains…unless he didn’t really mean that.
[quote]
God still works in us today, and things like healing occur. But they are through natural means. [/quote]
Okay, well you tell that to the blind boy (now man) that had his site restored after Pope John Paul II prayed over him. And, I’d like a reason why you think God doesn’t do miracles anymore. Did he lose his power after Jesus ascended into Heaven?
[quote]forbes wrote:
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
[/quote]
Incorrect, they still happen today. Apparitions, John Paul II healed a blind man to see, you have the Holy Eucharist miracles, &c.
He also said if you have a faith of a mustard seed you will be able to move mountains…unless he didn’t really mean that.
[quote]
God still works in us today, and things like healing occur. But they are through natural means. [/quote]
Okay, well you tell that to the blind boy (now man) that had his site restored after Pope John Paul II prayed over him. And, I’d like a reason why you think God doesn’t do miracles anymore. Did he lose his power after Jesus ascended into Heaven?[/quote]
Lets get the definition of miracles understood first. A miracle is any supernatural event that has no underlying natural cause. That is what a miracle is. God still works in us, but through natural law.
With the mustard seed Jesus was illustrating a point. The smallest known seed was a mustatrd seed, and comparing it to a mountain…well…the seed is infinitesimally small. The amount of faith does not matter. It is the quality of faith. The mustard seed tough small, grows into a largest garden plants. It has nothing to do with literally moving mountains. The scriptures say “do not test the Lord thy God.”
The nature of miracles was that they:
a) were instantaneous (it occured immediately unless it was specifically identified how long it would take)
b) proved the Word of God. Miracles cause people to believe that the messenger was from God, and not a false teacher.
c) they did not require faith. In fact, they caused faith. Miracles were not performed if it was known that faith would not occur. Even Jesus withheld miracles when he knew that the people observing would not believe.
d) supernatural. They occured by no means possible by natural law.
e) they were complete. Meaning the miracle remained a miracle. When a leper was cured, they remained disease free. When a paralyzed person was healed, they remained mobile.
f) there was proof that it occured. There was no doubt that it had happened. It was clear as day that it was real. No x-rays or MRI’s or glasses required. It was evident without any doubt.
If you notice in scripture, whenever God had a purpose for something and it was completed, that very thing ceased. Miracles were first and foremost to validate God’s Word. Since we now have the complete work of God’s Word in Holy Scriptures, miracles are no longer needed because God has no more revelations to reveal. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but miracles were not meant to simply heal the sick. As loving as God is, his agenda comes first. Heck, some miracles even caused pain and suffering, like the 7 plagues of Egypt.
So then, if miracles have truly ceased, what then do we say of people who today claim to perform miracles? They are false teachers, and Jesus warned of this:
Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, the elect.
Many people, through the power of the evil one, will be able to perform miracles, but these miracles will not be like the ones from our God. They will be imperfect.
The healing of the boy’s eyes. Was it instantaneous? Did it have to validate the Word of God (or to validate a doctrine contrary to God’s Word?)? Was it permanent? Was faith required? Was there any natural cause attributable to it? Do you have any refutable source that proves without a doubt that it actually occured?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Forbes wrote:
<<< You can’t. Only God knows who they are. And Tirib (once again) explained it better than I.
Explain how I am supposed to follow James 5:14…if I can’t.[/quote]With John14:12:
[quote] 12-Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.[/quote]Elders are fine, James says so, but Jesus also said that whoever believes in Him will do His works.
Explain how you can know that the particular elders of your church that you call on are not undiluted apostate hirelings and hence not hellbound non members of the mystical body of Christ. The first person I ever met, who was also the only one for years, That I was convinced was the recipient of a miracle was in an ariminian pentecostal church. I’ve met a couple more since. One lady in my church has had the sight fully returned to her blind left eye in answer to the prayer of the women’s group laying hands on her.
[/quote]
There definitely have been deceivers in the Catholic Church’s hierarchy. But the beauty of the Church is that it is greater than any one man or group of men. Apostolic tradition and the tenets of the Church protect against heresy becoming main stream.
Miracles happen, and I do not deny God’s power. I repeat my question above. You were quick to cast me to Jesus’s ultimate judgment for saying non-Christian’s may be saved. But isn’t the logical corrollary that there is one and only one true Christian church. How can you say certain aspects are more important than others making salvation available to people who reject XYZ but not to people who reject ABC? [/quote]
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father John 10:38
God still works in us today, and things like healing occur. But they are through natural means. [/quote]
What!!! Miracles happen all the time. Pay attention and you will see…
[quote]forbes wrote:
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
[/quote]
Incorrect, they still happen today. Apparitions, John Paul II healed a blind man to see, you have the Holy Eucharist miracles, &c.
He also said if you have a faith of a mustard seed you will be able to move mountains…unless he didn’t really mean that.
I hope you are privy to see one, one day. I have. Don’t ask, it’s private and therefore I won’t tell you; and I don’t care if you believe me.
Miracles do not lead to faith or love of God, if they did that’s all God would have to do. Hell, God split the Red Sea with a wall of water on either side allowing all the Hebrews to pass through. Yet, even they after not seeing Moses for a while made a golden calf to worship…Aaron himself made the calf. Miracles happen all the time, but not to make people believe. It’s simply a gift. Something God gives to people, to help them out of love.
1Cor 13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside.
1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part,
1Cor 13:10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside.
1Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways.
1Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.
1Cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Miracles no longer happen. They only occured to validate the individual sent from God (and therefore validate their words). Jesus even said:
[/quote]
Incorrect, they still happen today. Apparitions, John Paul II healed a blind man to see, you have the Holy Eucharist miracles, &c.
He also said if you have a faith of a mustard seed you will be able to move mountains…unless he didn’t really mean that.
Yes, and a piece of unleavened bread that turns into a piece of heart and blood and has not deteriated is an act of supernatural power.
I am not aware of an explanation of how naturally a body cannot not decompose over hundreds of years.
I think you are confused what Natural Law is, Natural Law is morals derived from looking at nature.
I am not understanding what you are getting at about the mustard seed being infintely small to the mountain.
Yes, and the man is still not blind to this day. And, your idea that a miracle stayed a miracle is incorrect, if you try to walk on the bottom of the Red Sea without an scuba gear, you’ll have a tough time.
Yes, they have museams and exhibits that put the Eucharist miracles on display, you should go see them. You can also go visit an uncorrupted Saint or an Apparition. I am not sure were you live but they have one in the Greenbay diocese, and they have one in Mexico City if you want to go visit one.
You are stating conclusions and not really backing up your points, I am not going to merely believe what you say, just because you state a conclusion. And am not going to try to address your argument until you have had an adequite amount of time to fully give your argument.
If all that is in the Bible are the miracles that happened, then John will have to disagree with you, “[as] there are also many other things which Jesus did; were everyone one of them written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”
Satan has no power to perform miracles, Satan has the power to make people perceive miracles, but not actually perform miracles themselves. Because miracles are inherently good and Satan can do no good, he is opposed to charity.
Yes, it was instantaneous, I am not sure why you think you need to put the precept that it needs to validate the Word of God, when you have not proven that miracles are to prove the Word of God.
Yes, the man can still see today, well people usually don’t ask the Pope of the Catholic Church to pray over their affliction if they didn’t have faith. No there was no natural cause to attribute to it. Yes, there is two witnesses.
As well, we are forgetting the biggest miracle in the world that happens everyday, the True Presence in the Holy Eucharist, God so infinite he holds the whole universe in his hands, humbles himself at the words of an unworthy man and puts his whole body, blood, soul, and divinity into a waffer and wine so that the bread and wine are effectively His body, blood, soul, and divinity…so that He can be ate by men, women, and children all across the world so they can be in the body of Christ and Christ can be in them.
Let me explain again, God holds the whole universe in the groves of his skinnest finger print and we sit deep in that grove, so deep it would feel like a child sitting in the lowest valley of the Grand Canyon. God is far larger than that, which we cannot wrap our brain around, and Jesus humbles himself to that of the words of a sinner, deserving Hell, to come down into a piece of unleavend bread and wine, turning the host effectively into the Blood, Body, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. That is purely supernatural. There is no natural explanation to how such an infinite God can come down to be in a Host of a human body, let alone turn a host into Jesus himself. Not just contain it, but be it. Not spiritually, but actually. Men and women and children hold Jesus in their hands and tongues every day.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Im sorry Pat, but miracles were always first and foremost to validate God’s Word, not for human beneficence. [/quote]
The Holy Eucharist fully denies this claim. The Holy Eucharist, baptism, all graces from God are contradictory to this claim, it is for our human benefit.
I have a full day ahead of me and I want to address this in more detail when I get the chance, but I ask you to then tell me what 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 means then?
To me, that which is partial are the miracles (the gifts of the spirit) and that which is perfect is the Bible (which has already come).
Forbes, where did you get the idea that miracles exist solely to make people believe? Generally, just the opposite is true in the bible. People received miracles after they had faith, not before.
Do you believe it’s possible to communicate with God through prayer? Can people receive private revelation?
On 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, Paul says that prophecies and tongues will be set aside when “that which is perfect comes”’ and when we “see face to face”. He is talking about when we live again in the presence of God, to glorify His name forever. Love won’t cease on that day, because God is love. But there will be no more need for prophecies and tongues, because the fate of man will have been judged, and all will have received their eternal reward or punishment. Clearly, that hasn’t happened yet, and there is no reason to believe miracles have ceased.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Forbes, where did you get the idea that miracles exist solely to make people believe? Generally, just the opposite is true in the bible. People received miracles after they had faith, not before. >>>[/quote]Both were true and as much as I do see God working in Forbes life right before my eyes, I cannot go along with him on this. Later, no time.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Do you believe it’s possible to communicate with God through prayer? Can people receive private revelation?[/quote]I KNOW God communicates with me, but He will never EVER tell me or anyone else ANYTHING in contradiction to what He’s already said in His word and He will never give me doctrinal revelation for the church at large. If I ever come proclaiming “THUS SAITH THE LORD, I tell you this day that 1st Corinthians 13 means____________.”? I have gone off the path and am in need of immediate and firm rebuke. He will and does however tell me what to or not to do in personal situations of my life. There have been times I went to say something to my wife for instance and I could almost physically sense Him stopping my tongue and here comes crystal clear wisdom I am quite certain did not come from me.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Forbes, where did you get the idea that miracles exist solely to make people believe? Generally, just the opposite is true in the bible. People received miracles after they had faith, not before.
Do you believe it’s possible to communicate with God through prayer? Can people receive private revelation?[/quote]
Mark 16:19-20
Acts 14:3
Hebrews 2:3-4
John 10:38
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 24:24
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
John 20:30-31 (Jesus did signs to CONFIRM he was the Christ, the Son of God)
Luke 16: 27-31
1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
And there are more.
These scriptures express that miracles were to validate the person sent by God and that the words they spoke were truly of God. Some of these scriptures also indicate that the devil can perform miracles in hopes of deceiving. 1 Corinthians 13: 8-13 clearly shows that what was partial (signs and miracles) were temporary and once we receive that which is in full (The Bible) they will cease.
We can pray to God and he hears us. That was not a gift of the Spirit. It is commanded by God for us to do. But God no longer gives private revelation. It has ceased and if someone claims to have received one then they are lying or are deceived themselves.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Forbes, where did you get the idea that miracles exist solely to make people believe? Generally, just the opposite is true in the bible. People received miracles after they had faith, not before.
Do you believe it’s possible to communicate with God through prayer? Can people receive private revelation?[/quote]
Mark 16:19-20
Acts 14:3
Hebrews 2:3-4
John 10:38
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 24:24
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
John 20:30-31 (Jesus did signs to CONFIRM he was the Christ, the Son of God)
Luke 16: 27-31
1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
And there are more.
These scriptures express that miracles were to validate the person sent by God and that the words they spoke were truly of God. Some of these scriptures also indicate that the devil can perform miracles in hopes of deceiving. 1 Corinthians 13: 8-13 clearly shows that what was partial (signs and miracles) were temporary and once we receive that which is in full (The Bible) they will cease.
We can pray to God and he hears us. That was not a gift of the Spirit. It is commanded by God for us to do. But God no longer gives private revelation. It has ceased and if someone claims to have received one then they are lying or are deceived themselves.
[/quote]
Where does it say miracles exist ONLY to confirm faith, and that people couldn’t continue to receive miracles until the second coming of Christ?
If you believe God hears your prayers, do you also believe God answers your prayers? If God speaks something to your mind and heart, is that not private revelation?
[quote]forbes wrote:
I have a full day ahead of me and I want to address this in more detail when I get the chance, but I ask you to then tell me what 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 means then?
To me, that which is partial are the miracles (the gifts of the spirit) and that which is perfect is the Bible (which has already come).
Please explain your understanding of this verse. [/quote]
12:8-13 is talking about that the Charismatic gifts will expire when “the perfect comes” (13:10), that is, when the Lord comes again in glory to reveal himself to the Church “face to face” (13:12).