[quote]BBriere wrote:
You have a few rare groups that I would consider totally out of line such as the United Pentecostal Church which believes in Oneness: God is not three separate persons but manifested himself in three separate ways so while he was Jesus he was not the Holy Spirit or the Father. There is the Church of Christ which teaches you can’t be saved unless you have been baptized into the Church of Christ. Other than that, I don’t think any Protestant groups are heretical to the point of spending eternity in hell.
[/quote]
Describing a protestant group as heretical seems like a misnomer based on the fact that there is no set beliefs among protestants. These people are heretics to whom?
And considering baptism essential has been a debate among many protestant groups. The view is certainly not unique to the Churches of Christ. There are many autonomous Churches of Christ (congregations) that compose the Church of Christ (or simply the Church) which you join through baptism. It isn’t, however, a stipulation that you must be baptized or even worship at A Church of Christ to be a member. You just have to be a member of the Church in general to be saved.[/quote]
Heretical to what orthodox Christianity teaches (by which I don’t mean the Eastern Orthodox Church). Are you sure you are thinking of Church of Christ and not Disciples of Christ?
[quote]BBriere wrote:
You have a few rare groups that I would consider totally out of line such as the United Pentecostal Church which believes in Oneness: God is not three separate persons but manifested himself in three separate ways so while he was Jesus he was not the Holy Spirit or the Father. There is the Church of Christ which teaches you can’t be saved unless you have been baptized into the Church of Christ. Other than that, I don’t think any Protestant groups are heretical to the point of spending eternity in hell.
[/quote]
Describing a protestant group as heretical seems like a misnomer based on the fact that there is no set beliefs among protestants. These people are heretics to whom?
And considering baptism essential has been a debate among many protestant groups. The view is certainly not unique to the Churches of Christ. There are many autonomous Churches of Christ (congregations) that compose the Church of Christ (or simply the Church) which you join through baptism. It isn’t, however, a stipulation that you must be baptized or even worship at A Church of Christ to be a member. You just have to be a member of the Church in general to be saved.[/quote]
Heresy is basically advocating a false belief which in this case applies. Churches do tend to express their differences based on minutia, but screwing with the Trinity doctrine is a pretty big departure and heretical. The 3 persons of God are not mutually exclusive, that is incorrect and I’d venture to say most protestants don’t believe that either.
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian. [/quote]
I’m not God. He judges mankind not me. I nor any other Christian determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some people have never or will never hear of Christ. God knows each person’s situation and can deal with that with his justice.
There’s a 3rd option, which is that those who didn’t have the opportunity to accept Christ in this life will have the opportunity in the next life, before being judged.
[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a 3rd option, which is that those who didn’t have the opportunity to accept Christ in this life will have the opportunity in the next life, before being judged.[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a 3rd option, which is that those who didn’t have the opportunity to accept Christ in this life will have the opportunity in the next life, before being judged.[/quote]
There is the option of “invincible ignorance” in Catholic teaching where someone having never heard of Christ may be saved through Him still. Catholics make no bones about it though that we do not know who ultimately will be saved, but it is revealed that salvation comes only through Christ who works through His Church. This is not to give anyone false hope, but we don’t really know what happens at the moment of our deaths and in fact we may be offered a final chance to repent.
[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a 3rd option, which is that those who didn’t have the opportunity to accept Christ in this life will have the opportunity in the next life, before being judged.[/quote]
[quote]McG78 wrote:
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian. [/quote]
I’m not God. He judges mankind not me. I nor any other Christian determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some people have never or will never hear of Christ. God knows each person’s situation and can deal with that with his justice.[/quote]
I agree. But most protestant religions don’t teach this. They teach that you can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior [b]during your life[/b].
[quote]McG78 wrote:
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian. [/quote]
I’m not God. He judges mankind not me. I nor any other Christian determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some people have never or will never hear of Christ. God knows each person’s situation and can deal with that with his justice.[/quote]
I agree. But most protestant religions don’t teach this. They teach that you can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior [b]during your life[/b].[/quote]
I would agree with that. You’re talking about the chance that someone would have never heard the Word. I can’t answer for that. The Bible makes it clear that if you refuse the Word of God and to accept Jesus you will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Even still, I can’t possibly know a person’s heart. Only God can know that. If I believed in God, I wouldn’t bank salvation on a technicality.
The possibility of being saved after death is not purgatory. That is the idea that a believer must atone for sins before entering heaven.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian. [/quote]
I’m not God. He judges mankind not me. I nor any other Christian determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some people have never or will never hear of Christ. God knows each person’s situation and can deal with that with his justice.[/quote]
I agree. But most protestant religions don’t teach this. They teach that you can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior [b]during your life[/b].[/quote]
I would agree with that. You’re talking about the chance that someone would have never heard the Word. I can’t answer for that. The Bible makes it clear that if you refuse the Word of God and to accept Jesus you will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Even still, I can’t possibly know a person’s heart. Only God can know that. If I believed in God, I wouldn’t bank salvation on a technicality.
The possibility of being saved after death is not purgatory. That is the idea that a believer must atone for sins before entering heaven. [/quote]
You are right that it is not purgatory, but incorrect in the atone for sins part. The sins are already atoned for, but the sinner must be purified (read purged) before entering heaven.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
As almost every protestant religion I’m aware of teaches that salvation only comes through Jesus and is only available to Christians, how do you reconcile this with people of the world who are never exposed to Christianity?
In other words, Jesus is pure love. Pure love does not include unjustly sending someone to hell. Jesus exists outside of time. There are some individuals who will never be exposed to Christianity because of remote locals, political barriers, etc. Because Jesus is outside of time, he knows upon a person’s birth whether they will come into contact with Christianity. If you can only be saved through Christianity, Jesus, by allowing the person to be born, would be condemning them to hell. This would violate the first premise that Jesus is pure love. Thus, either Jesus is not pure love or you can go to Heaven without being a Christian. [/quote]
I’m not God. He judges mankind not me. I nor any other Christian determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Some people have never or will never hear of Christ. God knows each person’s situation and can deal with that with his justice.[/quote]
I agree. But most protestant religions don’t teach this. They teach that you can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior [b]during your life[/b].[/quote]
I would agree with that. You’re talking about the chance that someone would have never heard the Word. I can’t answer for that. The Bible makes it clear that if you refuse the Word of God and to accept Jesus you will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Even still, I can’t possibly know a person’s heart. Only God can know that. If I believed in God, I wouldn’t bank salvation on a technicality.
The possibility of being saved after death is not purgatory. That is the idea that a believer must atone for sins before entering heaven. [/quote]
You are right that it is not purgatory, but incorrect in the atone for sins part. The sins are already atoned for, but the sinner must be purified (read purged) before entering heaven.[/quote]
The visible church is everybody claiming salvation in the Christ of the bible. The invisible church (mystical body of Christ) is comprised of the actually regenerate. Every last member of the invisible church goes to heaven. A rather disturbingly large percentage of the visible church will not. Individual church fellowships pretty much ALL consist of both. There is no church, denomination, local body etc. inhabited exclusively by the actually elect in Christ. Only God is ultimately certain which individuals make up the invisible church.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The visible church is everybody claiming salvation in the Christ of the bible. The invisible church (mystical body of Christ) is comprised of the actually regenerate. Every last member of the invisible church goes to heaven. A rather disturbingly large percentage of the visible church will not. Individual church fellowships pretty much ALL consist of both. There is no church, denomination, local body etc. inhabited exclusively by the actually elect in Christ. Only God is ultimately certain which individuals make up the invisible church.[/quote]
More or less you have it. I don’t know how much the term Invisible Church is used by Protestant denominations anymore. For instance, I learned about it in a class on the Reformation, but it was never taught to me growing up in a Lutheran Church despite the fact that Luther was big on the Invisible Church. I think it’s something that a lot of Protestant churches have distanced themselves from because originally it dealt with predestination and the elect. Even though the body of believers was visible, only God knew which ones were truly saved. That’s probably why I don’t know much more to say about it because none of the churches I attended really talked about it.
Here is a reliable abridgment of Luther’s “Bondage of the Will”. Luther's Bondage of the Will Fabulous piece. He pounds Erasmus to a bloody pulp in that book. You should really read the whole thing though.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
<<< I don’t know how much the term Invisible Church is used by Protestant denominations anymore. >>>[/quote]I don’t know how much ANY of the magnificent foundational truths of the reformation are embraced anymore. We are in an age where the philosophy of the world informs even the church. People wringing their hands in a pathetic whining refrain “ooooooohhhh, but God’s a Good and loving God!!!”. Of course God is a good and loving God. He’s good because HE IS GOD, not because He conforms to some tie dyed hippified notion of kissy faced feel good-ism.
HE IS IT folks. There is none higher. No standard by which He is adjudged holy or righteous or loving or merciful or good, NONE, above Himself exists. He swears by Himself (Hebrews 6) because by His own declaration there is none higher by which He must swear. He is the standard by which EV REE THING is measured. He moves upon the king of Assyria to attack Israel even though the king had no such plans and then judges him for doing it. (Isaiah 10). God says that if a prophet is deceived and utters falsehood in response to an inquiry from a seeker “it is I the Lord who has deceived that prophet and both the prophet and the seeker will be judged alike and destroyed from the midst of my people” (a very accurate paraphrase of Ezekiel 14).
When God sends Joshua to exterminate every man, woman, infant and animal in Canaan IT IS GOOD because it is God who is in command. When Paul says in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom He pleases, damns who He pleases and that it does not depend on man who wills or works, he anticipates the objection right up front. “You will say to me then, why does He still find fault for who resists His will?” Paul ignores the question and responds by indignantly proclaiming “WHO ARE YOU O MAN WHO ANSWERS BACK TO GOD”?.
He rules and reigns in heaven and Earth. His dominion is from everlasting to everlasting and none can stay His hand or question what He does? (ask Nebuchadnezzar, even he got it in Daniel 4). THAT, my friend is the take home lesson from the reformation. Proverbs 16:33 “The lot is cast in the lap, but it’s every decision is from the Lord”. Casting lots was like rolling dice. A deliberately designed attempt to introduce ungoverned chance into the universe and even then God simply declares every decision to be His. It’s that God who saves the souls of men. It’s that God who swept His Spirit over this land in the great awakening that led to the founding of this once great nation and it is that God alone who can save it.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
<<< I don’t know how much the term Invisible Church is used by Protestant denominations anymore. >>>[/quote]I don’t know how much ANY of the magnificent foundational truths of the reformation are embraced anymore. We are in an age where the philosophy of the world informs even the church. People wringing their hands in a pathetic whining refrain “ooooooohhhh, but God’s a Good and loving God!!!”. Of course God is a good and loving God. He’s good because HE IS GOD, not because He conforms to some tie dyed hippified notion of kissy faced feel good-ism.
HE IS IT folks. There is none higher. No standard by which He is adjudged holy or righteous or loving or merciful or good, NONE, above Himself exists. He swears by Himself (Hebrews 6) because by His own declaration there is none higher by which He must swear. He is the standard by which EV REE THING is measured. He moves upon the king of Assyria to attack Israel even though the king had no such plans and then judges him for doing it. (Isaiah 10). God says that if a prophet is deceived and utters falsehood in response to an inquiry from a seeker “it is I the Lord who has deceived that prophet and both the prophet and the seeker will be judged alike and destroyed from the midst of my people” (a very accurate paraphrase of Ezekiel 14).
When God sends Joshua to exterminate every man, woman, infant and animal in Canaan IT IS GOOD because it is God who is in command. When Paul says in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom He pleases, damns who He pleases and that it does not depend on man who wills or works, he anticipates the objection right up front. “You will say to me then, why does He still find fault for who resists His will?” Paul ignores the question and responds by indignantly proclaiming “WHO ARE YOU O MAN WHO ANSWERS BACK TO GOD”?.
He rules and reigns in heaven and Earth. His dominion is from everlasting to everlasting and none can stay His hand or question what He does? (ask Nebuchadnezzar, even he got it in Daniel 4). THAT, my friend is the take home lesson from the reformation. Proverbs 16:33 “The lot is cast in the lap, but it’s every decision is from the Lord”. Casting lots was like rolling dice. A deliberately designed attempt to introduce ungoverned chance into the universe and even then God simply declares every decision to be His. It’s that God who saves the souls of men. It’s that God who swept His Spirit over this land in the great awakening that led to the founding of this once great nation and it is that God alone who can save it.
[/quote]
And this is what the derangement of fundamentalism looks like…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here is a reliable abridgment of Luther’s “Bondage of the Will”. Luther's Bondage of the Will Fabulous piece. He pounds Erasmus to a bloody pulp in that book. You should really read the whole thing though.[/quote]
Trust me, I’ve read about EVERYTHNING Luther wrote or commented on including Theologica Germanica. Luther didn’t believe much in free will. John Calvin gets the credit for predestination, but Luther probably spread the idea to a much wider area.
I guess to a degree, Luther had a point in predestination. He described mankind being like mules being led one way or the other with no say in the matter. I don’t believe we have no say, but I don’t think you can just decide whenever it tickles your fancy to start believing. Go back and read Exodus where God hardens Pharaoh’s heart so that he will not let the Israelites go. So God picks times to reveal himself to us, but we must decide whether or not to accept him at those times.