[quote]forbes wrote:
I have a question and I really want KingKai and Tirib to answer. There are biblical references to the dead being conscious in either torment or paradise, awaiting to be reunited with their bodies on judgment day. Then there are other passages stating that the dead are unconscious/asleep awaiting to be woken on the day of judgment. The latter makes the most sense to however what do you guys have to say about this?[/quote] Why ya gotta do this to me now little brother =]
The very short version for right now is though I lean heavily away from soul sleep, I would not declare heresy upon someone who didn’t. I am certain that those given by the Father to the Son and raised in and by the Spirit spend eternity in the presence of the Lord and those who haven’t will pay for their sins. Very much further than that, eschatology remains my weakest area of study. I am also certain of some things I do not believe.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
I have a question and I really want KingKai and Tirib to answer. There are biblical references to the dead being conscious in either torment or paradise, awaiting to be reunited with their bodies on judgment day. Then there are other passages stating that the dead are unconscious/asleep awaiting to be woken on the day of judgment. The latter makes the most sense to however what do you guys have to say about this?[/quote] Why ya gotta do this to me now little brother =]
The very short version for right now is though I lean heavily away from soul sleep, I would not declare heresy upon someone who didn’t. I am certain that those given by the Father to the Son and raised in and by the Spirit spend eternity in the presence of the Lord and those who haven’t will pay for their sins. Very much further than that, eschatology remains my weakest area of study. I am also certain of some things I do not believe. [/quote]
Being that I was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist, one of the two cults that believes in soul sleep with the other being Jehovah’s Witnesses. As far as I can tell this belief originated in the 1850’s that lead to the development of those two cults and others like it and wasn’t held in the early church.
Anyways some of the reasons I think soul sleep isn’t the view taught by the bible. I never found their arguments for soul sleep convincing, as they were usually the result of taking texts out of their context (i.e. prooftexting) or an apriori and unfounded commitment to materialism. I think the text that most strongly supports people being in a disembodied state after death is 2 Corinthians 4:16-5:8 and a good exegesis of that text. This is a paraphrase from an exegesis of the text that Micheal Lincona does in “The Resurrection of Jesus:A New Historiographical Approach Ch 4.3.3.9 p 432” Sadly I am unable to read greek though I hope to someday.
"Although our bodies are wearing down… The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach - Michael R. Licona - Google Books
That’s the way I always read that passage in the 4th chapter of 2nd Corinthians. Pretty much. I just read it publicly Friday night as a matter of fact at a memorial service for a dear sister who died in her sleep Wednesday/Thursday at age 51. A true servant of the Lord whose mission in life the past 15 years was to patrol the tough streets of her east side hood, where she’d lived all her life amidst all that sickness and violence, telling people about Jesus.
Some will dispute this, I suspect KingKai may be one actually(maybe not), but I believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16) is best explained as an actual illustration of essential present truths rather than a fictitious, parabolic story too. As an example. I’m sure you know Brother Joab that soul sleep is not the same as annihilationism which I cannot see as biblical at all.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That’s the way I always read that passage in the 4th chapter of 2nd Corinthians. Pretty much. I just read it publicly Friday night as a matter of fact at a memorial service for a dear sister who died in her sleep Wednesday/Thursday at age 51. A true servant of the Lord whose mission in life the past 15 years was to patrol the tough streets of her east side hood, where she’d lived all her life amidst all that sickness and violence, telling people about Jesus.
Some will dispute this, I suspect KingKai may be one actually(maybe not), but I believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16) is best explained as an actual illustration of essential present truths rather than a fictitious, parabolic story too. As an example. I’m sure you know Brother Joab that soul sleep is not the same as annihilationism which I cannot see as biblical at all. [/quote]
This would be interesting for KingKai to comment on.
Anyways due to my background there was a time when I was quite enamored with annihilationism thinking that God couldn’t be just if hell was eternal. After being challenged by Craig’s views on hell(thank God). Now after reflection on the holiness of God and the gravity of not accepting Jesus sacrifice in addition to what Hell really entails, he is just whether it endure forever or whether they are annihilated. Additionally I believe scripture best supports the view on eternal punishment being contrasted with eternal life and that eternal life is much more than just existing but also entails being in right relationship with Christ.
Oppan Bump it style
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That’s the way I always read that passage in the 4th chapter of 2nd Corinthians. Pretty much. I just read it publicly Friday night as a matter of fact at a memorial service for a dear sister who died in her sleep Wednesday/Thursday at age 51. A true servant of the Lord whose mission in life the past 15 years was to patrol the tough streets of her east side hood, where she’d lived all her life amidst all that sickness and violence, telling people about Jesus.
Some will dispute this, I suspect KingKai may be one actually(maybe not), but I believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16) is best explained as an actual illustration of essential present truths rather than a fictitious, parabolic story too. As an example. I’m sure you know Brother Joab that soul sleep is not the same as annihilationism which I cannot see as biblical at all. [/quote]
This would be interesting for KingKai to comment on.
Anyways due to my background there was a time when I was quite enamored with annihilationism thinking that God couldn’t be just if hell was eternal. After being challenged by Craig’s views on hell(thank God). Now after reflection on the holiness of God and the gravity of not accepting Jesus sacrifice in addition to what Hell really entails, he is just whether it endure forever or whether they are annihilated. Additionally I believe scripture best supports the view on eternal punishment being contrasted with eternal life and that eternal life is much more than just existing but also entails being in right relationship with Christ.[/quote]So am I to conclude form this that you hold Craig’s view? How bout if I just ask you to further elucidate your view. In a nutshell Craig’s view is that hell is everlasting AND tormenting, but that the use of fire to illustrate it may be just that. An illustration of eternal torment using vivid imagery we can readily understand. IF I have understood him properly, because getting him pinned is not always easy which irritates me and makes me suspicious. Certainly not just with him.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That’s the way I always read that passage in the 4th chapter of 2nd Corinthians. Pretty much. I just read it publicly Friday night as a matter of fact at a memorial service for a dear sister who died in her sleep Wednesday/Thursday at age 51. A true servant of the Lord whose mission in life the past 15 years was to patrol the tough streets of her east side hood, where she’d lived all her life amidst all that sickness and violence, telling people about Jesus.
Some will dispute this, I suspect KingKai may be one actually(maybe not), but I believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16) is best explained as an actual illustration of essential present truths rather than a fictitious, parabolic story too. As an example. I’m sure you know Brother Joab that soul sleep is not the same as annihilationism which I cannot see as biblical at all. [/quote]
This would be interesting for KingKai to comment on.
Anyways due to my background there was a time when I was quite enamored with annihilationism thinking that God couldn’t be just if hell was eternal. After being challenged by Craig’s views on hell(thank God). Now after reflection on the holiness of God and the gravity of not accepting Jesus sacrifice in addition to what Hell really entails, he is just whether it endure forever or whether they are annihilated. Additionally I believe scripture best supports the view on eternal punishment being contrasted with eternal life and that eternal life is much more than just existing but also entails being in right relationship with Christ.[/quote]So am I to conclude form this that you hold Craig’s view? How bout if I just ask you to further elucidate your view. In a nutshell Craig’s view is that hell is everlasting AND tormenting, but that the use of fire to illustrate it may be just that. An illustration of eternal torment using vivid imagery we can readily understand. IF I have understood him properly, because getting him pinned is not always easy which irritates me and makes me suspicious. Certainly not just with him.[/quote]
That seems accurate.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Well both, I am not sure what would transpire though lol.