Proof Gay Marriage is Wrong

[spamme]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
spamme wrote:

Again, if even one person truly “changes” how can it be genetic?
[/quote]

Genetics does not mean absolute, and in fact its often expressed in tendencies, some weak, some strong.

Look at some diseases. HLA B27 is a gene that predisposes to anklyosing spondylitis. Many who have the gene get the disease but not all.

There could be multiple genes involved. It could be that some receive all genetic traits that make them strongly heterosexual, others that get traits of strongly homosexual, and some that get traits for both and then swayed by environmental factors.

I don’t think anyone knows for sure how much is genetic and environmental, but it simply makes sense to me for a strong genetic component to be involved.

[spamme]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:

His compassion is shown in that He has not made is difficult to find the path. He has made it very easy. You don’t have to be smart. You don’t even have to be literite. But, you do need to have faith, and you do have to search with a sincere heart.
[/quote]

Easy for you and easy for me, yes. What about the millions and millions living in remote villages of china or cambodia, especially those who die in their teens and twenties just struggling to survive. They never heard of God or Jesus. How is it easy for them to find the path?

[DOMK]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
harris447 wrote:
How about marriage? While you and the rest of the fundies have been screaming about how sacred and dignifed it is, less and less people are getting married.

That’s really too bad. I think everyone should know and experience a good, healthy, strong, heterosexual marriage that embrases love, respect, loyalty, and commitment.

And, the greatest joy that comes from this type of relationship is the kids!!! I get to see a part of me in each one of them, and it is absolutely exhilarating!
[/quote]

Unfortunately most fathers/mothers are not as pure as yourself.I would dare say the majority of kids suffer intolerable abuse,both physical and mental.
You see,marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be,the violence/adultery within marriages is proof enough.

I don’t believe homosexuals/lesbians give a crap about marriage,it’s the lagal rights they’re after.

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
No - Again you missed the point. Religion is irrelevant. Jesus physically existed (few scholars would disagree). God intended us to follow Jesus, not religion. Hence, I am not a believer in Jesus because I am a Christian, I am a Christin becasue I believe in Jesus. True Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, not a religion.[/quote]

Maybe it’s time you overcome such fairytales.The bible states many “facts” including “God created Adam & Eve”.This was long before science persevered to it’s present day excellence.Guess the “authors” of the bible had no idea further down the line it would be proven humans evolved from primates,not Adam & Eve.But hey,how were the “authors” to know!!! it’s not like these were the words of God right??..

[lothario1132]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
A very sad answer, lothario. But this answer also gives us a glimpse into why you think the way you do about gay marriage. After all, if nothing matters after you’re dead, the world you leave to our children is meaningless. Right?[/quote]

Hmph. I should have seen this coming. Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I am selfish. Quite the opposite, actually. I see a damn good reason to care about people right here and now, and I hold the concept of leaving the world a better place for our kids as the very meaning of why we live at all.

I don’t need some metaphysical carrot dangling in front of me to give me purpose in this life. This is the one shot I have, just like all of the rest of us. Might as well make the best of it.

BTW - how do you know if I was an aethiest or an agnostic? Do you have some clairvoyant ability that we are unaware of? Please share.

Since you asked…

An atheist is someone who rejects the supernatural. That means no supernatural gods, ghosts, coming back from the dead after flatlining for three days, etc., etc.

An agnostic is someone who has his doubts about God, but is willing to maintain an open mind for the possibility of the supernatural. You could say that an agnostic is somebody who is “waiting for proof” of some kind.

An atheist will not ever change to being religious. That is an agnostic you are thinking about. As you might come to see, there are very few true atheists, because it’s basically a life of calling bullshit on stuff. Being honest is a pain in the ass sometimes.

To all vistors of the gay marriage thread - this is a very common response from people who are pro-gay marriage. Many of these individuals do not care about the world in 10, 20, or 50 years. All they care about is satisfying themselves. They are shortsighted and selfish. They care only about what will make them happy now. Please review the facts of the thread.

Yes, please review how it is selfish to want equal rights for people who are just different from ourselves. Different… not criminals, not perverts, not horrific and selfish monsters… gay people are not to be feared and reviled for what they are. That is the path of weakness and cowardice.

If you’re going to hate someone, hate them for being evil. Subjugate them for performing acts of cruelty, treat them differently because they show selfishness and a lack of consideration for others in their deeds. We already do this. That’s what jails and insane asylums are for.

What we have here on the anti side is a cadre of folks who use their religious beliefs (thus why it is brought up so much in this thread) to condemn. A few of them have even tried to use health statistics to show that being gay is bad for everybody or at least for the gay person just like the bible says. I showed that this same logic applies to being black. It is a bad thing to be black in the very same way that it is bad to be gay, according to the statistics. It is also bad to be male, or bad to be young.

Let’s not let our fervor for marking ourselves as special not lead us to treat people with condemnation who do not deserve it.

If you are afraid that gay marriage is going to wreck society, then you need to take walk and think about your life. Seriously. There are a hell of a lot more things that are going to fuck up the USA before a few gay people getting married! But to hear certain politicians tell it, the whole world will end of we show some compassion and understanding to our gay brothers and sisters and legally recognize their relationships as worthy.

GEEZ!!! I WONDER WHY SOME POLITICIANS WOULD WANT TO GALVANIZE THEIR VOTER BASE BY APPEALING TO SOME SUPPOSEDLY SPIRITUAL/POLITICAL ISSUE??? What a fucking surprise THAT was.

“Ooo! If you don’t get out and vote, those damn queers are going to be getting hitched, and that’s wrong! Because… uh… because they’re queers! Gross! While you’re at it, let’s get George W back into office.”

I have to applaud that one. What a masterstroke of genius by the right wing to get more people voting than ever before. All they had to do was a little gay-bashing. Piece of cake.

[ZEB]

[quote]spamme wrote:

And what about a six year old taught nothing but atheism and dies before he knows the difference. If you are right, not very compassionate for an omnipotent being.[/quote]

Remember God is full of something called “grace.” That means we can sometimes receive good things even though we don’t deserve them.

I wouldn’t be so quick to say that they six year old who was taught atheism is going to hell. There are scripture verses which speak to this issue as well.

But I digress, my sole reason for posting was the comments: “God does not care what religion you belong to”. And “he only cares that you accept Jesus Christ”.

It might be time that you give that one a rest. He meant that God does not care what “Christian” religion that you are. At least that’s how I read it, I could be wrong.

[/quote]

[ZEB]

[quote]spamme wrote:
ZEB wrote:
spamme wrote:

Again, if even one person truly “changes” how can it be genetic?

Genetics does not mean absolute, and in fact its often expressed in tendencies, some weak, some strong.

Look at some diseases. HLA B27 is a gene that predisposes to anklyosing spondylitis. Many who have the gene get the disease but not all.

There could be multiple genes involved. It could be that some receive all genetic traits that make them strongly heterosexual, others that get traits of strongly homosexual, and some that get traits for both and then swayed by environmental factors.

I don’t think anyone knows for sure how much is genetic and environmental, but it simply makes sense to me for a strong genetic component to be involved.[/quote]

It seems that those who have your belief are simply ready to buy into the genetic theory with no real proof. When there are many many examples of things going wrong in that childs young life which gives them a same sex attraction later in life.

I have posted many of them. One particular study: 46% of all male homosexuals were molested by a man when they were still boys. Granted it’s only one study, but I found that amazing.

Another study spoke about how both male and female homosexuals felt “different” sometimes “isolated” when they were growing up.

Still another study spoke of the distance between a father and a son, who later developed same sex attraction. In other words the boy had no closeness to his father. He could not identify with a strong male role model.

Finally, there were studies which demonstrate how the son of a domineering mother can develop same sex attraction as an adult.

I have posted all of these things and more. If a person wants to continue on in their belief that homosexuals are “born that way” then it’s simply their choice.

We do know that that’s the politically correct way to think. We also know that the powerful gay lobbies and social liberals have been screaming this for so long (without proof) that it has become accepted by the politically correct. And let me add that the liberal media has also had a hand in this mass brain washing.

A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth …for many.

[ZEB]

[quote]DOMK wrote:

Unfortunately most fathers/mothers are not as pure as yourself.I would dare say the majority of kids suffer intolerable abuse,both physical and mental.
You see,marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be,the violence/adultery within marriages is proof enough.[/quote]

I think that claiming that “the majority of kids suffer intolerable abuse” is a dramatic overstatement. And you don’t have the statistics to back that up!

Also, your castigation of marriage is also off the mark. I have posted many many statistics which demonstrate that gay relationships have far more “mental” abuse occurring than any legitimate marriage does.

They also have a higher rate of anxiety, depression and suicide rate!

Also, studies have shown that “cheating” is the norm for most gay relationships.

Scroll back and read some of the stats that I have posted and reposted. They are alarming.

I don’t believe homosexuals/lesbians give a crap about marriage,it’s the lagal rights they’re after.

I agree 100%!

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
No - Again you missed the point. Religion is irrelevant. Jesus physically existed (few scholars would disagree). God intended us to follow Jesus, not religion. Hence, I am not a believer in Jesus because I am a Christian, I am a Christin becasue I believe in Jesus. True Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, not a religion.

Maybe it’s time you overcome such fairytales.The bible states many “facts” including “God created Adam & Eve”.[/quote]

How do you know for a fact (you guys like facts except when they demonstrate that homosexuals do not by and large have a very happy and healthy life!) that God did not create Adam and Eve?

This was long before science persevered to it’s present day excellence.

I always say that every post (matters not from who) has a line in it which makes me chuckle. This is the one for you my friend.

They were saying this about science 100 years ago, did you know that? Do you think 100 years from now science will not have progressed to the point where many if not most of what we accept as fact today is disproven?

Guess the “authors” of the bible had no idea further down the line it would be proven humans evolved from primates,not Adam & Eve.But hey,how were the “authors” to know!!! it’s not like these were the words of God right??..

There’s that word “proven.” Now why would you use that word to describe the THEORY of evolution?

It seems pretty obvious that the most vocal proponents of gay marriage are atheists (or at least non-Christians). And the most vocal opponents of gay marriage are Christians. At least on this thread.

Eveyone agree on this?

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Yes, please review how it is selfish to want equal rights for people who are just different from ourselves.[/quote]

Polygamists and those who enjoy adult incest are also “different.” Should we also give them the right to marry.

Hey…we did this once huh?

If you’re going to hate someone, hate them for being evil.

This is the old liberal line. If you oppose gay marriage you must hate homosexuals altogether. It’s funny how they use that all the time when they run out of things to say.

No one on this thread ever said or implied that they hated any homosexuals.

What we have here on the anti side is a cadre of folks who use their religious beliefs (thus why it is brought up so much in this thread) to condemn. A few of them have even tried to use health statistics to show that being gay is bad for everybody or at least for the gay person just like the bible says.

True, you lost the debate on religion, health and happiness stats, tradition, and peoples view points: polls; referendums etc.

I showed that this same logic applies to being black. It is a bad thing to be black in the very same way that it is bad to be gay, according to the statistics.

Wrong! This is where you tried to confuse the issue. In reality more blacks have grown up in poverty and we found that poverty was indeed the culprit. Being black is not inherently unhealthy! That would be foolish to even imply. Yet, the homosexual act is indeed quite unhealthy. And the lifestyle that goes with it is even worse yet.

See the difference everyone? One is a very unfortunate cultural phenomenon (being born into poverty). The other is a concious act-one male having sex with another male. And then living an unhealthy lifestyle as well.

BIG DIFFERENCE

Let’s not let our fervor for marking ourselves as special not lead us to treat people with condemnation who do not deserve it.

People need our love-An unhealthy act and lifestyle needs our condemnation.

If you are afraid that gay marriage is going to wreck society, then you need to take walk and think about your life. Seriously. There are a hell of a lot more things that are going to fuck up the USA before a few gay people getting married!

I don’t know about that. Changing a 5000+ year old institution is a very good start at tearing down a society.

I have to applaud that one. What a masterstroke of genius by the right wing to get more people voting than ever before. All they had to do was a little gay-bashing. Piece of cake.

First of all I’m not that fond of any politician on either side. However, it was the social liberals who began beating the drum for gay marriage.

What you are seeing now is a backlash! Most people who vote in referendums vote by a large majority sometimes as high as 77% (see Texas) against gay marriage.

You can blame the right wing if you want, but it’s really deeper than that. People are tired of the social liberals attempting to tear down everything that they hold to be sacred.

And by the way, no one has “bashed” anyone. Cut the rhetoric and you will get more from the people you are trying to convince.

[spamme]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

We also know that the powerful gay lobbies and social liberals have been screaming this for so long (without proof) that it has become accepted by the politically correct. And let me add that the liberal media has also had a hand in this mass brain washing.

A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth …for many.
[/quote]

Actually, I could say the exact same thing of your beliefs, and in fact you illustrate that behavoir much more than I. You are simply spouting the party line of the conservative right, cutting and pasting directly from conservative sites, without even examining the other side of the issue. There are hundreds of articles on both sides, yet you completely ignore those that do not support your view.

I came out and said, there is no proof which is correct, though I tend to believe a genetic component is involved. You on the other hand, claim you know for a certainty that genetics is not involved.

If you admit that the issue is unresolved, though you feel there is more evidence on one side, that is not brainwashing, that is thinking.

When you dogmatically state that something is a certainty, when facts have not proven a certainty, that is brainwashing.

[terribleivan]

[quote]spamme wrote:
terribleivan wrote:

His compassion is shown in that He has not made is difficult to find the path. He has made it very easy. You don’t have to be smart. You don’t even have to be literite. But, you do need to have faith, and you do have to search with a sincere heart.

Easy for you and easy for me, yes. What about the millions and millions living in remote villages of china or cambodia, especially those who die in their teens and twenties just struggling to survive. They never heard of God or Jesus. How is it easy for them to find the path?
[/quote]

Scripture answers this question. In short, they are able to come to God with the same faith that Abraham did.

[terribleivan]

[quote]DOMK wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
harris447 wrote:
How about marriage? While you and the rest of the fundies have been screaming about how sacred and dignifed it is, less and less people are getting married.

That’s really too bad. I think everyone should know and experience a good, healthy, strong, heterosexual marriage that embrases love, respect, loyalty, and commitment.

And, the greatest joy that comes from this type of relationship is the kids!!! I get to see a part of me in each one of them, and it is absolutely exhilarating!

Unfortunately most fathers/mothers are not as pure as yourself.I would dare say the majority of kids suffer intolerable abuse,both physical and mental.
You see,marriage is not all it’s cracked up to be,the violence/adultery within marriages is proof enough.

I don’t believe homosexuals/lesbians give a crap about marriage,it’s the lagal rights they’re after.[/quote]

Legal right is not the issue being debated. The issue at hand is gay marriage.

[quote]
terribleivan wrote:
No - Again you missed the point. Religion is irrelevant. Jesus physically existed (few scholars would disagree). God intended us to follow Jesus, not religion. Hence, I am not a believer in Jesus because I am a Christian, I am a Christin becasue I believe in Jesus. True Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, not a religion.

Maybe it’s time you overcome such fairytales.The bible states many “facts” including “God created Adam & Eve”.This was long before science persevered to it’s present day excellence.Guess the “authors” of the bible had no idea further down the line it would be proven humans evolved from primates,not Adam & Eve.But hey,how were the “authors” to know!!! it’s not like these were the words of God right??..[/quote]

Even “experts” in evolution call evolution a theory and realize the holes in the theory. The fact that you believe it has been proven demonstrates your ignorance of the issue.

[terribleivan]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
A very sad answer, lothario. But this answer also gives us a glimpse into why you think the way you do about gay marriage. After all, if nothing matters after you’re dead, the world you leave to our children is meaningless. Right?

Hmph. I should have seen this coming. Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I am selfish. Quite the opposite, actually. I see a damn good reason to care about people right here and now, and I hold the concept of leaving the world a better place for our kids as the very meaning of why we live at all.

I don’t need some metaphysical carrot dangling in front of me to give me purpose in this life. This is the one shot I have, just like all of the rest of us. Might as well make the best of it.

BTW - how do you know if I was an aethiest or an agnostic? Do you have some clairvoyant ability that we are unaware of? Please share.

Since you asked…

An atheist is someone who rejects the supernatural. That means no supernatural gods, ghosts, coming back from the dead after flatlining for three days, etc., etc.

An agnostic is someone who has his doubts about God, but is willing to maintain an open mind for the possibility of the supernatural. You could say that an agnostic is somebody who is “waiting for proof” of some kind.

An atheist will not ever change to being religious. That is an agnostic you are thinking about. As you might come to see, there are very few true atheists, because it’s basically a life of calling bullshit on stuff. Being honest is a pain in the ass sometimes.
[/quote]

Hmmm - dictionary.com diagrees with your definition of an atheist. It defines and aethiest as “someone who denies the existence of god”. Not a huge point, but I just wanted to point out that your definition is skewed. BTW - I was agnostic in my belief subsequent to being atheistic.

[quote]
To all vistors of the gay marriage thread - this is a very common response from people who are pro-gay marriage. Many of these individuals do not care about the world in 10, 20, or 50 years. All they care about is satisfying themselves. They are shortsighted and selfish. They care only about what will make them happy now. Please review the facts of the thread.

Yes, please review how it is selfish to want equal rights for people who are just different from ourselves. Different… not criminals, not perverts, not horrific and selfish monsters… gay people are not to be feared and reviled for what they are. That is the path of weakness and cowardice.

If you’re going to hate someone, hate them for being evil. [/quote]

I never said I hated anyone. You keep using the word hate.

Subjugate them for performing acts of cruelty, treat them differently because they show selfishness and a lack of consideration for others in their deeds. We already do this. That’s what jails and insane asylums are for.

What we have here on the anti side is a cadre of folks who use their religious beliefs (thus why it is brought up so much in this thread) to condemn.

The issue is more of a moral issue to me, not religious. I felt the same way before becoming a Christian.

[quote]
A few of them have even tried to use health statistics to show that being gay is bad for everybody or at least for the gay person just like the bible says. [/quote]

The stats speak for themselves. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they are not true.

[quote]
I showed that this same logic applies to being black. [/quote]

Being black, young, male, poor, etc… is different than being gay. That has already been discussed.

[quote]
It is a bad thing to be black in the very same way that it is bad to be gay, according to the statistics. It is also bad to be male, or bad to be young.

Let’s not let our fervor for marking ourselves as special not lead us to treat people with condemnation who do not deserve it.

If you are afraid that gay marriage is going to wreck society, then you need to take walk and think about your life. Seriously. There are a hell of a lot more things that are going to fuck up the USA before a few[/quote]

I don’t believe “a few” descibes it

[quote]gay people getting married! But to hear certain politicians tell it, the whole world will end of we show some compassion and understanding to our gay brothers and sisters and legally recognize their relationships as worthy.

GEEZ!!! I WONDER WHY SOME POLITICIANS WOULD WANT TO GALVANIZE THEIR VOTER BASE BY APPEALING TO SOME SUPPOSEDLY SPIRITUAL/POLITICAL ISSUE??? What a fucking surprise THAT was.[/quote]

Sounds to me like you are the one who hates just by the way you speak on this thread.

[quote]“Ooo! If you don’t get out and vote, those damn queers are going to be getting hitched, and that’s wrong! Because… uh… because they’re queers! Gross! While you’re at it, let’s get George W back into office.”

I have to applaud that one. What a masterstroke of genius by the right wing to get more people voting than ever before. All they had to do was a little gay-bashing. Piece of cake.[/quote]

Just becasue most of the country is more morally minded than you are doesn’t mean you need to get angry.

[ZEB]

[quote]spamme wrote:

Actually, I could say the exact same thing of your beliefs, and in fact you illustrate that behavoir much more than I. You are simply spouting the party line of the conservative right, cutting and pasting directly from conservative sites, without even examining the other side of the issue. [/quote]

Time for a wake up call my friend!

Have you ever heard of the Center for Disease Control? It’s called the “CDC.”

A good many of the health statistics cited by me were from the CDC. That is not a right wing organization!

For example:

“The CDC reported that during the same period the proportion of men reporting having multiple sex partners and unprotected anal sex increased from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent. The largest increase in this category (from 22 percent to 33.3 percent) was reported by homosexuals twenty-five years old or younger.[3]”

“A five-year CDC study of 3,492 homosexual males aged fifteen to twenty-two found that one-quarter had unprotected sex with both men and women. Another cdc study of 1,942 homosexual and bisexual men with HIV found that 19 percent had at least one episode of unprotected anal sex–the riskiest sexual behavior–in 1998 and 1997, a 50 percent increase from the previous two years.[8]”

These statistics are provided by the very reputable apolitical Center for Disease Control.

On the other hand YOUR SIDE has never produced even one statistic that was not from some nutty social liberal, or pro gay web site.

Go back and read the thread-

There are hundreds of articles on both sides, yet you completely ignore those that do not support your view.

As I have stated I have yet to see any credible information come from your side. The quotes and web sites are from the far left and pro gay web sites.

I came out and said, there is no proof which is correct, though I tend to believe a genetic component is involved. You on the other hand, claim you know for a certainty that genetics is not involved.

Please take the time to actually read this thread. Pay close attention to what I have stated. I will repeat this just for you:

I have no idea how people develop same sex attraction. And neither do YOU. And neither does anyone else! However, there seems to be a reasonable amount of data which demonstrate that this could be from nuture rather than nature.

But, the constant cry from the left of “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY” is not only old but not very helpful.

If you admit that the issue is unresolved, though you feel there is more evidence on one side, that is not brainwashing, that is thinking.

The constant cry “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY” is indeed politically correct brain washing-Nothing more! As there is no conclusive proof that anyone is born with a same sex attraction!

[quote]When you dogmatically state that something is a certainty, when facts have not proven a certainty, that is brainwashing.
[/quote]

It is the far left which has been dogmatic regarding the liberal logic of repeating the big lie that folks are “born that way.” That you fail to see this does not mean that it is not so.

I have provided many, many statistics which demonstrate a multitude of things. Apparently you didn’t like that very much as it flies in the face of your politically correct beliefs.

So sorry…but all you need to do instead of all the posuturing is find legitimate data that refutes the statistics that I have posted.

Start here:

1. Find and post information which demonstrates that homosexuals are physically and emotionally healthier, happier and live longer.

2. Find and post information that absolutely refutes the fact that many, many people with same sex attraction have NOT been changed into having heterosexual attraction.

3. Find and post data that indicates that homosexuals are LESS promiscuious in their relationships.

All data that you post must be from a neutral, well respected source. such as the CDC or Johns Hopkins University.

You can put an end to this entire debate right now! Refute my many statistics and be a hero in the eyes of every social liberal and homosexual activist who has failed thus far to rise to the occasion.

I anxiously await your next post as I’m sure it will be an eye opener for me (one way or the other).

In all sincerity I want to be educated as to why the politically correct continue to scream “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY.”

(Caution: You are not allowed to use the usual liberal hate speech as that has been tried and found wanting. Only statistics from reputable sources will work, otherwise you lose.)

[terribleivan]

[quote]spamme wrote:
ZEB wrote:

We also know that the powerful gay lobbies and social liberals have been screaming this for so long (without proof) that it has become accepted by the politically correct. And let me add that the liberal media has also had a hand in this mass brain washing.

A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth …for many.

Actually, I could say the exact same thing of your beliefs, and in fact you illustrate that behavoir much more than I. You are simply spouting the party line of the conservative right, [/quote]

This is very interesting. I have watched the pro-gay marriage side go from attacking the issue, to attacking religion, to attacking politically in only a few pages. Sounds like a desperate atttempt to distract from the issue at hand -

Gay marriage is not a good idea.

cutting and pasting directly from conservative sites, without even examining the other side of the issue. There are hundreds of articles on both sides, yet you completely ignore those that do not support your view.

I came out and said, there is no proof which is correct, though I tend to believe a genetic component is involved. You on the other hand, claim you know for a certainty that genetics is not involved.

If you admit that the issue is unresolved, though you feel there is more evidence on one side, that is not brainwashing, that is thinking.

When you dogmatically state that something is a certainty, when facts have not proven a certainty, that is brainwashing.

No one has been brainwashed by this thread. Again, don’t be angry about truth. Truth is truth.

[spamme]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
spamme wrote:

Actually, I could say the exact same thing of your beliefs, and in fact you illustrate that behavoir much more than I. You are simply spouting the party line of the conservative right, cutting and pasting directly from conservative sites, without even examining the other side of the issue.

Time for a wake up call my friend!

Have you ever heard of the Center for Disease Control? It’s called the “CDC.”

A good many of the health statistics cited by me were from the CDC. That is not a right wing organization!

For example:

“The CDC reported that during the same period the proportion of men reporting having multiple sex partners and unprotected anal sex increased from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent. The largest increase in this category (from 22 percent to 33.3 percent) was reported by homosexuals twenty-five years old or younger.[3]”

“A five-year CDC study of 3,492 homosexual males aged fifteen to twenty-two found that one-quarter had unprotected sex with both men and women. Another cdc study of 1,942 homosexual and bisexual men with HIV found that 19 percent had at least one episode of unprotected anal sex–the riskiest sexual behavior–in 1998 and 1997, a 50 percent increase from the previous two years.[8]”

These statistics are provided by the very reputable apolitical Center for Disease Control.

On the other hand YOUR SIDE has never produced even one statistic that was not from some nutty social liberal, or pro gay web site.

Go back and read the thread-

There are hundreds of articles on both sides, yet you completely ignore those that do not support your view.

As I have stated I have yet to see any credible information come from your side. The quotes and web sites are from the far left and pro gay web sites.

I came out and said, there is no proof which is correct, though I tend to believe a genetic component is involved. You on the other hand, claim you know for a certainty that genetics is not involved.

Please take the time to actually read this thread. Pay close attention to what I have stated. I will repeat this just for you:

I have no idea how people develop same sex attraction. And neither do YOU. And neither does anyone else! However, there seems to be a reasonable amount of data which demonstrate that this could be from nuture rather than nature.

But, the constant cry from the left of “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY” is not only old but not very helpful.

If you admit that the issue is unresolved, though you feel there is more evidence on one side, that is not brainwashing, that is thinking.

The constant cry “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY” is indeed politically correct brain washing-Nothing more! As there is no conclusive proof that anyone is born with a same sex attraction!

When you dogmatically state that something is a certainty, when facts have not proven a certainty, that is brainwashing.

It is the far left which has been dogmatic regarding the liberal logic of repeating the big lie that folks are “born that way.” That you fail to see this does not mean that it is not so.

I have provided many, many statistics which demonstrate a multitude of things. Apparently you didn’t like that very much as it flies in the face of your politically correct beliefs.

So sorry…but all you need to do instead of all the posuturing is find legitimate data that refutes the statistics that I have posted.

Start here:

1. Find and post information which demonstrates that homosexuals are physically and emotionally healthier, happier and live longer.

2. Find and post information that absolutely refutes the fact that many, many people with same sex attraction have NOT been changed into having heterosexual attraction.

3. Find and post data that indicates that homosexuals are LESS promiscuious in their relationships.

All data that you post must be from a neutral, well respected source. such as the CDC or Johns Hopkins University.

You can put an end to this entire debate right now! Refute my many statistics and be a hero in the eyes of every social liberal and homosexual activist who has failed thus far to rise to the occasion.

I anxiously await your next post as I’m sure it will be an eye opener for me (one way or the other).

In all sincerity I want to be educated as to why the politically correct continue to scream “THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY.”

(Caution: You are not allowed to use the usual liberal hate speech as that has been tried and found wanting. Only statistics from reputable sources will work, otherwise you lose.)

[/quote]

I never argued about homosexual lifestyles statistics or even commented on them, your rant about the CDC is irrelevant.

I never stated they are born that way, you stated the opposite.

Again, my whole reason for posting, is I don’t like dogmatic statements when the facts do not support them. I don’t give a rats ass one way or the other.

I consider myself a moderate republican, I don’t like the leftwingers BS anymore than I like the rightwingers (your) BS. If someone says they know it is 100% genetic, they are as brainwashed as you.

But don’t put words in my mouth. Just because I don’t believe your BS, it doesn’t follow I believe the left’s BS either. But nice try on twisting things around.

And if you now say, neither I nor you know for sure. That was my whole point from the start. I am more of an agnostic on that matter, not a liberal or a rightwinger.

[Lorisco]

[quote]spamme wrote:
Actually its not the powerful homosexual lobbies and social liberals causing the problem, it is the scientists. For every study that shows a few homosexuals can be “converted” to heterosexual, there are as many stating they cannot.

Granted as most do, you only quote the studies that support your veiwpoint. Problem is, there are just as many that do not.

Some argue that when twins are studied, there are heritable traits that play a greater role than environmental.
[/quote]
It is true that in most physical disorders genetics have been shown to contribute about 1/4 to the disease (based on twin studies in Sweden). However, does that mean there is no hope? There are people with genetic disposition for heart disease who never develop it because of their healthy lifestyle. So the genetic predisposition does not always mean a set outcome.

Having stated this there is currently no scientific proof that being gay is genetic. Or that being criminal, or any other deviant behavior is genetic. If it were then we would have to reevaluate our need for prisons, because they are designed with the idea that a person can change and be rehabilitated. If that is genetically not possible, then what do we do with criminals, child molesters, etc?

And that was found with less than a minute of searching. It is not the homosexuals and press that are the problem. It’s the scientists that are researching it.

Who do you think is funding the science? And once you understand that the next question is do you think that funding affects the outcome of the studies? How long would the social liberals pay for scientists to come up with outcomes that don’t support their point of view?

Science is not so unbiased as you may think.

[spamme]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Science is not so unbiased as you may think.

[/quote]

As a physician and researcher myself, I can tell you unquestionably science has many biases. Social sciences are the worst of all. And thanks for agreeing with my whole point.

I think all the studies are biased on homosexuals for a variety of reasons. But the bias applies to both sides.

I am not the one who first posted a bunch of biased BS studies. (again I am not talking about CDC risk behavori studies, not even sure how that got brought into this). I simply replied with some biased ones on the other side.

My whole point is no one knows for sure how much is genetic vs. environmental. But most diseases it is both. Many animal behavoirs it appears to be both. Makes common sense to me to be both. Do I know for sure…no. Do I care…no.

Am I going to call BS on someone who claims they do know for sure it is 100% environmental, or yes for that matter 100% genetic…yes.

[ZEB]

Memory refreshment time

[quote]spamme wrote:

I never argued about homosexual lifestyles statistics or even commented on them, your rant about the CDC is irrelevant.[/quote]

You accused me of “cut and pasting only from conservative sites.” You said it not me.

In fact one of your posts stated: “…no amount of rhetoric cut and pasted from biased research is going to sway anyone…”

You have to at least remember what you are posting…

My answer: Many of my facts are taken from the Center for Disease Control site (CDC) which has no political agenda!

Got it?

I never stated they are born that way, you stated the opposite.

Actually, you posted three different web sites attempting to convince the readers that scientists were to blame for all of the misinformation instead of the powerful homosexual lobbies, the social liberals and the media.

I would say that you had an agenda there my friend.

For the third time, I stated that your side screams “they are born that way.” I say that there is evidence (no proof) that they might not be born that way and in fact it could be nurture over nature.

Scroll back and soak it in.

Again, my whole reason for posting, is I don’t like dogmatic statements when the facts do not support them. I don’t give a rats ass one way or the other.

Ahh but you do give a “rats ass!” Otherwise I would be reading your posts complaining about the social liberals and the other gay activists claiming that “they are born that way.” And they do this with out proof.

Where are your posts claiming that such dogmatic statements need serious verification? Oh my, they are missing.

I consider myself a moderate republican, I don’t like the leftwingers BS anymore than I like the rightwingers (your) BS. If someone says they know it is 100% genetic, they are as brainwashed as you.

Wrong Mr. moderate!

I never once stated that I had the answer. And many times I have stated that I did not have the answer. But I do want people to consider an alternative view. As far as being brainwashed, that would be anyone who buys into the “they are born that way” calling card of the left.

Now, would that be you?

But don’t put words in my mouth. Just because I don’t believe your BS, it doesn’t follow I believe the left’s BS either. But nice try on twisting things around.

I have clearly pointed out that you are not nuetral on the subject. Again go back and read your posts. How many of them question the other side? ZERO

We know where you are coming from-Can’t change your tune now pal to late.

[quote]And if you now say, neither I nor you know for sure. That was my whole point from the start. I am more of an agnostic on that matter, not a liberal or a rightwinger.
[/quote]

You are one of the politically correct. Don’t be ashamed of it embrace it.

I have many posts which state that no one knows why people have same sex attraction. The fact that you failed to read them is your own fault.

To the readers:

Did you notice that this poster came back with not one shred of evidence which refutes the many statistics that I have shown?

He didn’t like the statistics from legitimate sources. Yet, he can’t find anything that refutes these statistics.

Just more of the same from those who have been spoon fed politically correct bull crap…

[spamme]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Memory refreshment time

spamme wrote:

I never argued about homosexual lifestyles statistics or even commented on them, your rant about the CDC is irrelevant.

You accused me of “cut and pasting only from conservative sites.” You said it not me.

In fact one of your posts stated: “…no amount of rhetoric cut and pasted from biased research is going to sway anyone…”

You have to at least remember what you are posting…

My answer: Many of my facts are taken from the Center for Disease Control site (CDC) which has no political agenda!

Got it?
[/quote]

Yes, I got that you have no ability for logic. You were quoting biased studies. The fact that you also quoted one from the CDC on a side point is still mute.

I never stated they are born that way, you stated the opposite.

Actually, you posted three different web sites attempting to convince the readers that scientists were to blame for all of the misinformation instead of the powerful homosexual lobbies, the social liberals and the media.

I would say that you had an agenda there my friend.

Yes, my agenda was pointing out their is research on both sides, neither convincing. Again your jumps in “logic” escapes me.

For the third time, I stated that your side screams “they are born that way.” I say that there is evidence (no proof) that they might not be born that way and in fact it could be nurture over nature.

Scroll back and soak it in.

I don’t agree with that side either, you either are delusional or you went to a different english school than I.

Again, my whole reason for posting, is I don’t like dogmatic statements when the facts do not support them. I don’t give a rats ass one way or the other.

Ahh but you do give a “rats ass!” Otherwise I would be reading your posts complaining about the social liberals and the other gay activists claiming that “they are born that way.” And they do this with out proof.

I already stated I dont agree with them, once again, you can not read.

I consider myself a moderate republican, I don’t like the leftwingers BS anymore than I like the rightwingers (your) BS. If someone says they know it is 100% genetic, they are as brainwashed as you.

Wrong Mr. moderate!

I never once stated that I had the answer. And many times I have stated that I did not have the answer. But I do want people to consider an alternative view. As far as being brainwashed, that would be anyone who buys into the “they are born that way” calling card of the left.

Now, would that be you?

You stated in a post that if one homosexual was converted, how can it be genetic.

But don’t put words in my mouth. Just because I don’t believe your BS, it doesn’t follow I believe the left’s BS either. But nice try on twisting things around.

I have clearly pointed out that you are not nuetral on the subject. Again go back and read your posts. How many of them question the other side? ZERO

You must be a mindreader. If liberals were posting they had 100% proof, and I happened to stop by, I would have argued with them as well. The fact you proclaim you know what I truly think, is the same type of logic that allows you to believe without question some BS studies.

Did you notice that this poster came back with not one shred of evidence which refutes the many statistics that I have shown?

He didn’t like the statistics from legitimate sources. Yet, he can’t find anything that refutes these statistics.

You claim I posted studies earlier, now you claim I havent posted any. Can you not keep track even in one post.

As I said previously, I dont buy any of the studies. At one point this was fun, but since you can put words in my mouth, claim you know what I am thinking, and assign thoughts to me that I am unaware of, you can now run both sides of the debate, which leaves me with something more fun to do.

[terribleivan]

[quote]spamme wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Memory refreshment time

spamme wrote:

I never argued about homosexual lifestyles statistics or even commented on them, your rant about the CDC is irrelevant.

You accused me of “cut and pasting only from conservative sites.” You said it not me.

In fact one of your posts stated: “…no amount of rhetoric cut and pasted from biased research is going to sway anyone…”

You have to at least remember what you are posting…

My answer: Many of my facts are taken from the Center for Disease Control site (CDC) which has no political agenda!

Got it?

Yes, I got that you have no ability for logic. [/quote]

This poster has obviously not read the thread. Zeb has been quite logical. This is just another attempt to attack the character of the person rather than address the issues.

[quote]
You were quoting biased studies. The fact that you also quoted one from the CDC on a side point is still mute.

I never stated they are born that way, you stated the opposite.

Actually, you posted three different web sites attempting to convince the readers that scientists were to blame for all of the misinformation instead of the powerful homosexual lobbies, the social liberals and the media.

I would say that you had an agenda there my friend.

Yes, my agenda was pointing out their is research on both sides, neither convincing. Again your jumps in “logic” escapes me.

For the third time, I stated that your side screams “they are born that way.” I say that there is evidence (no proof) that they might not be born that way and in fact it could be nurture over nature.

Scroll back and soak it in.

I don’t agree with that side either, you either are delusional or you went to a different english school than I.

Again, my whole reason for posting, is I don’t like dogmatic statements when the facts do not support them. I don’t give a rats ass one way or the other.

Ahh but you do give a “rats ass!” Otherwise I would be reading your posts complaining about the social liberals and the other gay activists claiming that “they are born that way.” And they do this with out proof.

I already stated I dont agree with them, once again, you can not read.[/quote]

You don’t agree with dogmatic statements, yet you make them? That doesn’t show well for your cause.

[quote]
I consider myself a moderate republican, I don’t like the leftwingers BS anymore than I like the rightwingers (your) BS. If someone says they know it is 100% genetic, they are as brainwashed as you.

Wrong Mr. moderate!

I never once stated that I had the answer. And many times I have stated that I did not have the answer. But I do want people to consider an alternative view. As far as being brainwashed, that would be anyone who buys into the “they are born that way” calling card of the left.

Now, would that be you?

You stated in a post that if one homosexual was converted, how can it be genetic.

But don’t put words in my mouth. Just because I don’t believe your BS, it doesn’t follow I believe the left’s BS either. But nice try on twisting things around.[/quote]

Here is a neat twist - align yourself with the side you are attacking. It is the Benidict Arnold tactic. Sorry, but it will not work here.

I have clearly pointed out that you are not nuetral on the subject. Again go back and read your posts. How many of them question the other side? ZERO

You must be a mindreader. If liberals were posting they had 100% proof, and I happened to stop by, I would have argued with them as well.[/quote]

Would have, could have, should have…the fact is you didn’t agrue with the liberal side. Go look in the mirror, you seem to forget who you are.

[quote] The fact you proclaim you know what I truly think, is the same type of logic that allows you to believe without question some BS studies.

Did you notice that this poster came back with not one shred of evidence which refutes the many statistics that I have shown?

He didn’t like the statistics from legitimate sources. Yet, he can’t find anything that refutes these statistics.

You claim I posted studies earlier, now you claim I havent posted any. Can you not keep track even in one post.

As I said previously, I dont buy any of the studies. At one point this was fun

It was fun until somebody proved you were wrong and bias? Do explain?

[quote]
, but since you can put words in my mouth, claim you know what I am thinking, and assign thoughts to me that I am unaware of, you can now run both sides of the debate, which leaves me with something more fun to do. [/quote]

Run away, Simba, run away…and never return.