[quote]ZEB wrote:
WMD wrote:
Oh, Zebedee, why do you lie and make stuff up?
I have not told one lie and you have not refuted even one of the many statistics!
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YOu have told many lies. I refuted all of the stats you posted from your cherry pickin’, redacted white paper. Ignore it if you wish.
[quote]I pulled apart your redacted white paper (did you think I wouldn’t notice?) and all its statistics and now you impugn my character. How ever shall the stake be removed from my heart. Go take a stats course.
Again, you did not refute even one of the statistics.
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Refuted all.
[quote]As to your character: when you stated that tele’ stated that he hated homosexuals you lied!
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Truth hurts, I guess.
[quote]It’s really very simple.
You guys don’t have much of an argument left so it’s time to take the twisting and turning stage, which you are currently in.
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It is the state you have been in, and shall always be in.
[quote]I, by my little self, have cowed the media, lorisco, ZEB and every other homophobe on the thread. I am soooo powerful. Deadlifts rule!
I never stated that it was “you.” But then you know that-This is more twisting and liberal logic at work.
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Oh. My bad. I just thought it was more ZEB illogic.
[quote]I stated that the powerful gay lobbies and social liberals have cowed the media.
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Oh. Us powerful queers. No wonder you guys are so scared.
[quote]And your use of the word homophobe is simply more lying. I have not read of even one person on this thread who stated that they had a phobia regarding homosexuals.
I have read some who stated that the homosexual act made them nauseous. Tell me when something makes you sick do you then automatically develop a phobia about it? I don’t think so. What I think is that you are using yet more liberl logic.
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If it makes them nauseous why do they watch, participate or think about gay sex. A little bit of latency, I guess.
[quote]It’s “homorepugnant.” I might have some bumper stickers printed up to give to all the social liberals so that they can quit lying about word usage.
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Come up with all the moronic neologisms you want. The fact remains.
[quote]I don’t like people who use statistics to support their already fully developed prejudices.
And I don’t like people who are unable to support their arguments without any valid reasoning. I also don’t like those who outright lie about others simply to cow them into silence.
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Valid reasons have been given. YOu ignore them. If people are cowed, they need to find a stronger position beyond “Queers make me feel icky.”
[quote]Have you noticed that that tactic is not working on this thread?
In fact, this is why this thread is so very long and can go on to 10,000 pages for all I care. Social liberals are used to getting their own way by name calling and bullying. The fact that it’s not working here prolongs this thread (and I’m having fun, so who cares 
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Yes, that is what is prolonging the thread. Not your morbid fascination with queers.
[quote]The social liberals are spoiled folks. If you say that you are against gay marriage all they usually have to say is “HOMOPHOBE.” And many of you run away because you don’t want to put up with the venom coming from the social liberals. Hence, they are not used to actually having to present an argument. As you can see from this thread there is no reason for gay marriage.
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There are plenty of good reasons for gay marriage. Sticking your fingers in your ears won’t make them go away.
[quote]And in fact they don’t even have an argument to back up the tired old assertions which they have forced on the heterosexual communtiy.
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You don’t have any support for the lies you tell about gay people.
[quote]One such lie: “I was born that way.” They gave this lie up early in the debate because it was exposed.
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I have stated from the git go that I was born gay. Again with the lies.
[quote]I am none of the things you and lorisco say are proven about gay people. Neither are most gay people.
“You” may not be any of those things and I (nor anyone else) ever stated that YOU were. And I am also aware that not every gay falls into these patterns. BUT, depending on the statistic many if not most do!
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Yet you lump me and other happy healthy gay people in with folks who are having a lot of problems (problems shared by heteros) and say I don’t deserve to marry.
[quote]However, it seems that there are indeed many problems with the gay lifestyle. Would you like the laundry list again?
Sure why not:
What about reduced life expectancy?
What about the rate which they spread STD’s and AIDS?
What about the higher rate of anxiety?
What about their higher rate of depression?
What about their higher rate of suicide?
What about their higher rate of domestic violence (both gay and lesbian)?
I have given facts and figures to back up all of the above. Now I want you to actually look up facts that can refute the above if you think you can find them.
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Okay. Let’s shall: Domestic & Sexual Violence
http://www.tht.org.uk/home/informationresources/factsandstatistics/europenew/heterosexual/
http://ww2.aegis.org/news/newsday/1995/ND950202.html
http://www.healthsquare.com/aids_stats.htm
And just for fun: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~taflinge/evistats.html
The last one is really important, so I expect you to ignore it.
[quote]Stop talking about how they mean nothing because they mean a great deal. Not the least of which is that homosexuality is not a safe practice and should not be sanctioned by the government.
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I’m sure they mean something. Just not what you say they do. Take a stats course.
[quote]It’s fun to insult people on the Internet and you do it well. But sending off posts that insult your debate opponents does not strengthen your position one iota. Andy lying about what they have said is just more waste of time.
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It is fun, especially whe they say stupid things or operate from a weak position. If they lie, I point it out. sorry if that bothers you.
[quote]You’ve already made up your minds about gay people and their right to marry so what does it matter anyway?
I will be very honest with you. When I began on this thread I was not nearly as against gay marriage as I am now.
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Uh huh. YOu were only against it from the outset. So you are now even more so. Big surprise.
[quote]Granted from a Biblical standpoint homosexuality is wrong.
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So. This is not a theocracy.
[quote]From a traditional standpoint it makes no sense.
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Really?
[quote]It is publically not a popular idea either.
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Prejudice runs rampant.
[quote]BUT…when I became familiar with the pain that most gays endure in their lifetimes from the dangerous lifestyle they lead I became 100% convinced (at least at this point) that gay marriage would be a huge step in the wrong direction.
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So because some people have problems, all gays should be denied marital rights. Even when you admit not all gays have these problems
[quote]The above individuals (including you) who are against gay marriage are also against gay people, period. Your whole agenda is about getting rid of us,
Every post has one low point and you just hit yours!
I never once stated that I want to “get rid” of gay people. And best I can remember no one on this thread has stated that. I know you have no facts to back up your point, but why make stuff up?
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So your desire that we stop being gay and go through reparitive “therapy” and that we just give up and go away isn’t about wanting to get rid of us?
[quote]I have stated that I think all people are sinners and deserving of our love and understanding however. But you somehow twisted that one huh?
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It was already twisted before it got to me.
[quote]Your sort of “love” for gay people is the wrong kind. You want to encourage a behavior that is by all standards DANGEROUS. I want to curtail a behavior that is dangerous. There will be less pain, death and anguish with my plan.
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What is your plan, exactly?
[quote]I wonder which of the two of us cares more?
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Me.
[quote]…it is by creating fictions about people changing their sexual preferences
The following is in fact the TRUTH. You don’t like it because it somehow makes you feel like you have failed in your personal life. Well that is not the case. Have you even tried to give therapy a chance? Are you happy being gay then ignore the following.
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I am happy. But let’s look at Spitzer’s stuff.
[quote]The following is not fiction, but the reality for homosexuals who actually try to change.
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And you say you don’t want to get rid of us.
[quote]Not unlike alcoholism it’s not easy. But it can be done according to Dr. Spitzer who by the way once thought that people with same sex attraction could not change prior to this study!
You can read it here or goggle search it yourself:
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Okay.
[quote]"The results of a study conducted by Dr. Robert L. Spitzer have just been published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403-417.
Spitzer’s findings challenge the widely-held assumption that a homosexual orientation is “who one is” – an intrinsic part of a person’s identity that can never be changed.
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Let’s look at some of the peer reviews for Spitzer’s “study”:
“In conclusion, even the limited hypothesis that some individuals whose orientatio is predominantly homosexual can become predominantly heterosexual following reparative therapy is not supported by this study. It may be possible that some of the research participants might have a more fluid sexual orientation, such as bisexuality” Carlson, (p. 427)
“As scientists, we must disbelieve Spitzer’s data because they are so compromised by subject selection bias as to raise serious objections to any claims Spitzer might make about their meaning and generalizability.” Cohen (p. 429)
“Studies such as Spitzer’s provide valuable information about how individuals with stigmatized xperiences actively manage those experiences, in concert with their own narratives of adjustment, coping, and personal growth. In the final analysis, however, such studies have little to tell us about ‘change in sexual orientation’ or even ‘change in sexual desire.’” Diamond (p. 430)
“Spitzer’s article, for all its dignified-looking data, scientific journal format, and partial disclaimers, is in essence irresponsible and unscientific. It does not constitute scientific evidence that gayness can be changed.”
Hartmann (p. 438)
“Spitzer’s article, for all its dignified-looking data, scientific journal format, and partial disclaimers, is in essence irresponsible and unscientific. It does not constitute scientific evidence that gayness can be changed.”
Hartmann (p. 438)
“The only conclusion that is indisputable in Spitzer’s study is that he has identified a subset of lesbians and gay men (who in fact may actually be more appropriately considered bisexual) who claim to have changed their overt sexual behavior; the nature of the change, and the process through which it occurred, has not been convincingly established.”
Hill and DiClementi (p. 442)
“We are troubled by the publication of work filled with scientific flaws that disregards harm and conveys a number of false impressions.” Wainberg et al. (p. 456)
“From this analysis, I believe that the only valid conclusion we can draw from Spitzer’s data is that it is possible to locate 200 individuals who are motivated to retrospectively report changes in their sexual functioning as a means of promoting the use of sexual reorientation therapies.” Worthington (p. 461)
"Recruitment and sample bias:
Sixty-five percent of the participants heard about the study via notices sent out by ex-gay ministries and by the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. Others were referred or recruited by former or present therapists, or by other individuals who had heard about the study. The concern here is that the subjects were not randomly selected and are not representative of the diverse gay community. Instead, they are highly religious (predominantly protestant), highly Caucasian, middle-age, etc., and may be highly motivated to overestimate the changes they’ve experienced."
Mentioned or discussed in 14 reviews.
Discussion in Bancroft, Byrd, Carlson, Cohen, Hill and DiClementi, Rust, Vasey and Rendall
[quote](66% changed from homosexual to heterosexual! And they have stayed that way!)
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Not really. YOu really should take a class on stats.
[quote]Is reorientation therapy harmful? For the participants in our study, Spitzer notes, there was no evidence of harm.
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This question was not asked by Spitzer in his study as peer reviews point out: Harm done ignored:
Critics claim that Spitzer ignored the the concept that reparative therapy can cause harm to individuals and did not investigate the actual risk which was faced by patients. They also said that he did not take into account the belief that the practice of reparative therapy can harm many gay and lesbian people who are not looking for help, by continuing to present the idea of homosexuality as being an illness and something less than heterosexuality.
Mentioned or discussed in 6 reviews.
Discussion in Beckstead, Hartman, Herek, Wainberg et al.
[quote]or denying us the right to legal recognition and protection for our relationships.
What “relationships?”
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No, you have no biases. YOu just like to imply that our relationships don’t reaaly count.
[quote]You mean these:
"Male Homosexuality. Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, edited by P. Aries and A. Bejin, pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reproductive Therapy of male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), pp. 124, 125.
“Few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.”
Smith, T.W. (1991, May/June). Adult Sexual Behavior in 1989: Number of Partners, Frequency of Intercourse and Risk of AIDS. Family Planning Perspectives. 23: (3) 102-107 (Table 2, 104).
Van de Ven, P., Rodden, P., Crawford, J., Kippax, S. (1997). A comparative demographic and sexual profile of older homosexually active men. Journal of Sex Research. 34 (4): 349-360.
Study of 2,585 homosexually active men in Australia showed that more men over 50 years old reported they had 101-500 lifetime partners than any other category involving numbers of sexual partners. Only 2.7% reported just one lifetime sexual partner."
Yea…that looks like something that is healthy and good for the country.
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Same old refuted crap.
[quote]Why would I imagine, from all that has been said here or all the murders of gay people in this country or any of the rhetoric spewed by people on your side, that you do not want to destroy us?
I think you concern is misplaced! There is far more violence being perpetrated upon gays and lesbians by other gays and lesbians:
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Take a look at the American Bar Associations website posted above.
[quote]As you can see by the statistics (please look them up) violence is one good reason NOT to allow gay marriage!
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By the same token, violence in hetero relationships is a good reason to disallow hetero marriage.
[quote]Not looking good for your side…
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Not with your bias.
[quote]Now I know you don’t have a life outside this forum but I actually have real work I have to do.
I post statistics, facts and figures to back up my side of the argument and WMD uses more insults. (shaking head)
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Run out of lies to tell then whine about insults. I doubt you are particularly offended, given your propensity to tell lies about gay people.
[quote]So I don’t always have time to pointlessly argue with you. Not to mention you you just bore the hell out of me sometimes. For love of God, come up with something new every once in a while.
You use insults and distortions about what certain posters have stated. I use statistics to back up my claims. And then you state that I have not come up with anything? LOL
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I’ve used stats, too. So what? You misuse statistics because you don’t understand them.
[quote]More liberal logic folks!
It’s good that these social liberals and gay activists have been exposed. Right here on T-Nation folks
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This is hilarious.
[quote]I also urge all who agree with me to make copies of the stats that I have posted. Stand up for what you believe in! Don’t be intimidated by militant homosexuals, lesbians and the social liberals.
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Yes, make copies of the cherry picked stats. Because you need more reinforcement for your pre-existing biases. Don’t let us queers scare you.
[quote]If you don’t fight for a world that you do want you will wake up one day in a world that you don’t want!
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I love irony.
[quote]The CDC website also indicates some pretty negative things about straights. So give me a break.
Would you like me to do a side by side comparison?
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Oh, please do.
[quote]The negative statistics for “straights” don’t even come close to the death, physical and emotional pain and shortened life span that have been shown to be rife with in the gay community!
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If this belief gets you through the day, then cling to it. Because straight people don’t die early, engage in risky behavior, acquire drug habits, get depressed, have anxiety, etc.
[quote]You may never open your eyes to the truth, but the many who have read this site have been enlightened to what it really means to be gay. Because they sure as heck are not going to get this information from CBS, NBC, ABC or any of the other liberal media organizations.
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YOu should make a tin foil hat. If you put the shiny side out, it will keep you from imagining homosexual activities.
[quote]You remain, as ever, full of crap.
Thank you for finishing off in true form as the name caller with no real argument.
I post facts and figures from the Center for Disease control (CDC). You name call using the tired “homophobic” line. And I’m full of crap? LOL
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It is good that you admit you are full of crap. It is also good to have a sense of humor. YOu post BS.
[quote]Two final points:
- I never once stated that EVERY homosexual has a higher rate of AIDS, STD’s Suicide, anxiety, depression, or could not remain in a stable relationship.
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Yet you would deny all gay people the right to marry because some have problems.
[quote]However, there is a strong body of evidence from credible sources, like the CDC that the homosexual lifestyle has a very negative impact on many who participate and in some instances a majority (depending on the statistic of course).
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There is a strong body of evidence that hetero lifestyle has a negative imapct and that is good reason to rescind the right to marry from all heteros.
[quote]So please don’t distort-People see what you are doing and it’s not working.
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YOu should get this tattooed on your forehead.
[quote]2. If you want to continue the debate I Implore you to begin using more facts and less emotion. Name calling while prevalent, on the Internet, only hurts your side at this point.
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I think it is your points that are suffering. I implore you to quit being a dick.
[quote]Finally, the gay lifestyle has been exposed. The toothpaste is out of the tube, there is no going back. Anyone who has read this thread since about the 35th or 36th page is well aware of the dangers of the gay life. Stating that I, or anyone else (who supports these statistics) hates gays is foolish. We do “hate” a lifestyle that harms them however.
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Double talk, semantics and whiny BS. Your ass has been exposed. Everyone is praying for death
[quote]In other words comeback with more than name calling…
Thank you
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Comeback with more than homophobic BS and I will.
You are welcome.