Proof Gay Marriage is Wrong

[lothario1132]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
No, all I am saying is that:

1. Homosexuals cannot be comared to someone who suffered discrimination because of race or gender.

2. The “seems fair” reason is simply weak and can be used to rationalize just about anything…Polygamy anyone? Seems fair…

3. The “this would make gay people happy” reason is even weaker than “it seems fair” (heck we all want to “seem fair”). lothario I would like to make everyone happy. And you know what? We can make the majority of Americans happy by not allowing homosexuals to marry.

In short you really have not given any good reasons why homosexuals should marry. Sorry, but you really have not done it.[/quote]

Okay. But ZEB, those weren’t the reasons I gave you. As I recall…

1. Gay marriage will create a more stable home environment for children.

2. Publicly recognizing the validity of gay relationships will strengthen the ties of the gay community to the rest of us as a whole, thus making our society stronger.

3. Legal status and things like hospital visitations, joint bank accounts, tax filing, etc., in other words, the kinds of legal conveniences that married couples may take for granted but become roadblocks for gay couples… those roadblocks could be lifted if we accept gay marriage.

Your refutations were: (I’ll paraphrase to save space… although you may not like how I word it!! hehehe)

1. We can’t trust gay people with kids, because that might make the kids gay, too. Don’t ask me why or how I think this way, it’s just something I am willing to believe for some reason. And being gay is such an awful thing anyway, isn’t it?

2. The gay community is a very small minority, therefore they don’t matter enough for us to consider them or their special case, even though it has little to no appreciable negative impact to us, and would be a very big help to them. (Selfish MUCH??)

3. Okay, this is kinda okay with me. BUT WE CAN’T CALL IT MARRIAGE!!! That’s OUR thing. Let’s call the gay limited civil union something else… how about Butt Buddies? (apologies to Trey Parker and Matt Stone)

Am I far off-base here? I went for a few smiles at your expense, but it’s not like I misrepresented you, is it? I’m sorry, pal… I just think that your reasons are selfish, small, lacking compassion, ungenerous, and immoral. (How’s that for a switcheroo?)

You tell me to open my heart to give faith in the supernatural a chance? I say open YOUR heart to give the people in the real world a chance!

PS I think polygamy is a bad idea, for the reasons I stated previously, although it seems to be harmless at first glance. (Can you imagine going through two divorces at once? Yikes!)

What about an adult brother and sister who are not able to have children and this can be proven. Do you think they should be allowed to marry? It would really make them happy…

I have to admit that thinking about this gave me the creeps. I have been pretty thoroughly socialized to be against any such thing, but I have no good reasons to be against this in the same vein as to why I am against other deviant forms of marriage. Two consenting adults (shudder)… ugh. I guess we found one of my hang-ups huh? Considering the rarity of the special case at hand, no kids, etc., maybe the justice of the peace could look the other way while they sign the contract or something… yeesh! Can we talk about something else now? I’ve got the “ookies”.

[quote]My spirituality is just a metaphor. I am open to how you think, and I reject it out of hand.

I want you to say that line to yourself slowly…you are “open but reject it out of hand.” Ooookay…[/quote]
Yeah, I listened, it didn’t make sense, so I gave up on it. I also don’t take the Care Bears, leprechauns, or Winnie the Pooh seriously, either. Common sense. Please don’t take offense to this, but to me, all these things are in the same place… our imaginations.

Personally, I feel it’s always wrong to sterotype an entire race, gender or religion. You seem awfully open minded about your small circle of friends, yet very closed minded about things of a much greater magnitude. Odd.

Did I actually stereotype you though? Am I full of shit that I made up myself out of assumptions about you and your religion? You literally think that Jesus rose from his grave after being clinically dead for three days, right? And that’s not a metaphor or an exaggeration, right? This is a statement of simple fact for you. That’s not stereotyping at all, ZEB. That’s what you believe.

I happen to be quite against stereotyping as a general rule myself, so I’m not going to do it to you. I just don’t buy it, man. Three day long dead people left in a cave somewhere don’t suddenly wake up. They smell bad, though.

[quote]I attack christianity because it isn’t real. A soon as it stops taking itself seriously, and trying to mold our society in ways that are wrong (like being against gay marriage, for example) then I will let up.

Again, you don’t understand Christianity because you have never read the scriptures. Yet, you form an opinion. Where I come from they call that bigotry![/quote]
I just call a duck a duck. There’s nothing bigoted about trying to remind someone that just because they believe in something really hard doesn’t make it true. Or even good.

Experience this issue yourself, in your personal life, and you might find your opinion on this matter changing, ZEB. If you knew a gay couple like I do who would really appreciate this thing we argue over all the time, and you knew them as good people, raising their daughter right, etc… maybe, just maybe, you would look past a few words in a book and see them as folks who deserve this thing, even though it’s different from what you have.

Take care, pal. Where’s my scripture quote, dammit?!!

[Keith_T]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Polygamy: Alive and well. Not widespread in this day and age, but we still see it in other countries. As long as there’s no goats, manatees, or five-year old kids – on the surface, I can’t see the harm in it. There’s a catch though: Time and history has told us how difficult it is to make marriage among just two people work.
[/quote]
You do know that in the countries that allow gay marriage, the divorce rate is higher among Homos the Hetros?

Ugh. A million ughs. A child, by definition is NOT adult enough (that’s why porn is called ADULT movies) to do sex. Please get your mind out of the gutter and look at this rationally. And really, you should know better than to try some cheap trick like this when debating me by now. I’m… insulted. Kinda. Oh well.

In some countries, the age of consent is 14. In others (historicly), people were allowed to get married when they are as young as 10.

It is considered legal, and by most means moral in these countries.

When a society says that your and adult when you are 14 or even 10, then is it ok to marry what we would define as children?

[Keith_T]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Their (or anyone’s, for that matter) sexual behavior isn’t subject to a negative moral judgment until harm is done. And even then, the context of the situation must be considered before labelling a “good” or “bad” to it. I can’t see how sex could be immoral between two consenting adults, do you? Maybe kinky (all right! handcuffs!) or weird (why is this chick licking my armpit?), but immoral? Hmmm… that’s a tough one.
[/quote]
In cases like poligamy, I have seen argued that it “harms society” so it can’t be allowed. Yet with gay marriage, the issue aparently revolves around “harming people physicly/mentaly”.

The issue isn’t just about weather it harms people, it is also about if it hars society. I like to see how one can jump to teh “society” argument when poligamy is brought up, but when gay marriage/sex is brought up, it becomes a “personal” issue.

If one can argue that a bahaviour harms society (and not the two consenting people), then would it become moraly wrong?

[Keith_T]

[quote]harris447 wrote:

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning. 100% natural, 100% good.
   [/quote]
   Yes, other things I have seen in nature we must accept. Like animals/insects eating there young/mates/feicies.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

Last time I checked, sex of any kind, hetro or homo, was a behavour, being tall is a physical trait.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

Some countries recognize cows as beeing supioior to humans, guess giving a dog legal standing wouldn’t be to far out of the question.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

Things that have been around a long time must be changed. Laws against murder, can’t have that.
Marriage in general, we should just throw any form of social comitments out the window, and have a free for all.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

The people who generaly opose gay marriage also opose things like flings. Irelavenmt.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

I concour, people should be allowed to marry animals because our orphanages are over populated.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

Damn strait!

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

That is exactly we a good chunk of people in prison come from single parent homes, someone has to populate the prison system.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Don’t forget about how we adapted to X-Rays (which we now know cause cellular damage to your body), or peticides to help protect food crops (which we now know are poisonious to people), or putting flouride in our water (which we now know can cause thyroid problems), or to Microwaves (which can cause problems for people with pace makers). Isn’t it amazing how adapting to stuff to better society can really help make our lives so much more robust? Btw, cars polute.

[lothario1132]

[quote]BowFlexFan wrote:
If one can argue that a bahaviour harms society (and not the two consenting people), then would it become moraly wrong?[/quote]

Very nice. You see, this is why morality is a fluctuating thing. A society’s mores will tend to define just how important an individual’s rights are when the interests of an individual come into conflict with the interests of society. Although, one could even make for a compelling argument that says that this is a thing which is defined by each individual, i.e., some people are more thoughtful of others than of themselves.

So… good question. I like to break it down to how much harm we are doing here to society when we place an individual before the rest of us. Our society is pretty tough, and can take quite a bit of punishment, but that’s no excuse to go about trying to wreck it. And since I am all about situtional ethics and moral relativism, I would need to know what exactly we are doing here before giving you a yes or a no.

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Ah yes, but a CW program, and more importantly, the results of that program are real. It is testable. BTW, a book cannot guarantee you an afterlife. All a book is is a bunch of words.[/quote]

Ha ha, “a bunch of words?” Like the Declaration of Independence? “A bunch of words” is what civilization stands on my friend.

The Bible is obviously more than a “bunch of words.” In fact, it is the cornerstone of 900 million peoples belief! “Faith” in a higher power, while you may disagree, is a very important part of many peoples lives. In fact, 90% of all Americans say they believe in God!

You are to fast to dismiss this-But then again you have not read the book so what do you really know? You rely on what you have heard and stereotypes. Does that seem closed minded? It does to me.

LOL I know why you believe what you do. I don’t have to brainwash myself to understand this. And really, I don’t mean to make it sound like y’all are childish and stupid, it’s just… hmmm. It’s that the childlike mind analogy is the best analogy I could think of.

Mark 10:15

“I tell you the truth that anyone who will not recieve the kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.”

Jesus teaches us that salvation is achieved through an act of selflessness and service to others.

No, slavaton is achieved through belief that Christ is the son of God died for your sins.

It’s a simple gift which needs to be accepted, or it’s lost.

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. That whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only son.”

One way lothario, no other “kind deed” will work.

And you are admonished to carry on the good work that was achieved through the crucifixion. Sound familiar? What have I been exhorting the whole time here? The virtues of kindness, generosity, courage, honesty, and compassion are their own rewards.

Well…um boy scouts are urged to do this stuff too. But, that won’t help you ultimately.

You and I are more alike than you would probably like to admit, ZEB. I see that the difference is that I have let go of the supernatural… that’s it. Otherwise, I might as well be knocking on people’s doors and handing out bibles.

I think most people have more similarities than differences. However, the differences are what determine your ultimate destiny!

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
23 pages and still going.

I disagree.

Well you bitches are still checking it out, aren’t ya? :)[/quote]

LOL…They can’t stay away from our stimulating debate (clears throat).

[AJL_1240]

Millions of people believed the world was flat. It must have been true! LOL

Don’t you see the fallacy there?

It’s true because many people believe it’s true!

Same can be said for magic and Earth being the center of the universe.

I wonder how many people would believe in ALL of the far fetched stories that are told in the Bible if they were told of them when they were legitimate decision making adults.

Some people strongly believe that the world is less than a few thousand years old.

Just goes to show how strong brain-washing can be when it’s started at such a young age.

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Okay. But ZEB, those weren’t the reasons I gave you. As I recall…

1. Gay marriage will create a more stable home environment for children.[/quote]

That might just be the absolute worst reason I have ever heard for allowing gay marriage! WOW!

2) Publicly recognizing the validity of gay relationships will strengthen the ties of the gay community to the rest of us as a whole, thus making our society stronger.

Why do we (as a society) want to stabalize this activity? We don’t even know yet why gay people become gay! I will give you another WOW.

3) Legal status and things like hospital visitations, joint bank accounts, tax filing, etc., in other words, the kinds of legal conveniences that married couples may take for granted but become roadblocks for gay couples… those roadblocks could be lifted if we accept gay marriage.

Some of those things are antiquated anyway and laws need to be changed to fix the problem. Two hetersexual men who are living together and have no family should be allowed “visitation rights” don’t you agree?

Let’s tinker with the system just a bit in order that it’s fair all the way around. We don’t have to change the institution of marriage in order to do that.

I think polygamy is a bad idea, for the reasons I stated previously, although it seems to be harmless at first glance. (Can you imagine going through two divorces at once? Yikes!)

Why can’t you open your heart to Polygamists? Seems you only care about a certain few…

(on adutlt incest)I have to admit that thinking about this gave me the creeps. I have been pretty thoroughly socialized to be against any such thing, but I have no good reasons to be against this in the same vein as to why I am against other deviant forms of marriage. Two consenting adults (shudder)… ugh. I guess we found one of my hang-ups huh? Considering the rarity of the special case at hand, no kids, etc., maybe the justice of the peace could look the other way while they sign the contract or something… yeesh! Can we talk about something else now? I’ve got the “ookies”.

Having the “ookies” is no excuse in the lothario book everyone must be made happy. It matters not what practice they want to induldge in as long as they are consenting adults. Right?

[quote]My spirituality is just a metaphor. I am open to how you think, and I reject it out of hand.

I want you to say that line to yourself slowly…you are “open but reject it out of hand.” Ooookay…

Yeah, I listened, it didn’t make sense, so I gave up on it. I also don’t take the Care Bears, leprechauns, or Winnie the Pooh seriously, either. Common sense. Please don’t take offense to this, but to me, all these things are in the same place… our imaginations.[/quote]

Ever been wrong before? Ever been really really surprised when you found out you were wrong (we all felt that right?) Well get ready for one of those feelings someday…and it won’t be good.

Did I actually stereotype you though? Am I full of shit that I made up myself out of assumptions about you and your religion? You literally think that Jesus rose from his grave after being clinically dead for three days, right? And that’s not a metaphor or an exaggeration, right? This is a statement of simple fact for you. That’s not stereotyping at all, ZEB. That’s what you believe.

Yes, I do believe that! And you sterotype all who believe that and you know it!

I happen to be quite against stereotyping as a general rule myself, so I’m not going to do it to you. I just don’t buy it, man. Three day long dead people left in a cave somewhere don’t suddenly wake up. They smell bad, though.

More ridicule of my faith. How many gay jokes, or stereotyping of gays have you read from me on these threads? None!

I attack christianity because it isn’t real.

Neither is gay marraige but we sure talk about it a lot…Not real to you so you feel you have the right to bash it.

A soon as it stops taking itself seriously, and trying to mold our society in ways that are wrong (like being against gay marriage, for example) then I will let up.

God sent is one and only son to be sacrificed so that all (who believed) could have eternal life. Yea…I’d say that’s a pretty serious topic. Sorry you don’t agree. But you need to lighten up anyway if you are ever going to be considered anything but closed minded.

[quote]Again, you don’t understand Christianity because you have never read the scriptures. Yet, you form an opinion. Where I come from they call that bigotry!

I just call a duck a duck. There’s nothing bigoted about trying to remind someone that just because they believe in something really hard doesn’t make it true. Or even good.[/quote]

So then by virtue of your philosophy others can call gay people fags and belittle them because they don’t think that their behavior is “even good” in your own words…Make sense yet?

Experience this issue yourself, in your personal life, and you might find your opinion on this matter changing, ZEB. If you knew a gay couple like I do who would really appreciate this thing we argue over all the time, and you knew them as good people, raising their daughter right, etc… maybe, just maybe, you would look past a few words in a book and see them as folks who deserve this thing, even though it’s different from what you have.

I would treat them with the utmost respect as I do all people. Other than that, no they don’t “deserve” to be married as that is an institution created and fostered for one man and one woman.

Take care, pal. Where’s my scripture quote?

Here you go:

1Corinthians 1:25:

“For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”

[ZEB]

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
Millions of people believed the world was flat. It must have been true! LOL

Don’t you see the fallacy there?

It’s true because many people believe it’s true!

Same can be said for magic and Earth being the center of the universe.

I wonder how many people would believe in ALL of the far fetched stories that are told in the Bible if they were told of them when they were legitimate decision making adults.

Some people strongly believe that the world is less than a few thousand years old.

Just goes to show how strong brain-washing can be when it’s started at such a young age.[/quote]

More irrelevance (and sterotyping) from those who spew hatred toward a religion that they never studied and don’t understand!

[AJL_1240]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
SWR-1222D wrote:
Millions of people believed the world was flat. It must have been true! LOL

Don’t you see the fallacy there?

It’s true because many people believe it’s true!

Same can be said for magic and Earth being the center of the universe.

I wonder how many people would believe in ALL of the far fetched stories that are told in the Bible if they were told of them when they were legitimate decision making adults.

Some people strongly believe that the world is less than a few thousand years old.

Just goes to show how strong brain-washing can be when it’s started at such a young age.

More irrelevance (and sterotyping) from those who spew hatred toward a religion that they never studied and don’t understand!
[/quote]

But I have studied it, and have been activley involved in it for the majority of my life.

You just accuse me of stereotyping and spewing hatred. I don’t hate it, it’s a great idea to spread love, kindness and can help people to feel better about themselves and the world around them. The idea was pure genious.

I don’t understand why you don’t dispute each paragraph of mine (first post on this page) like you do other posts…

[ZEB]

You got it!

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
Millions of people believed the world was flat. It must have been true! LOL

Don’t you see the fallacy there?

It’s true because many people believe it’s true! [/quote]

Something is not necessarily true because millions of people believe it to be. Then again it’s not necessarily true if a minority believes it to be true either. I’m sure there are plenty of examples which can be given in that direction as well.

However, when it comes to issues such as gay marriage I feel that there is a certain right that the majority has. If society as a whole wants to accept gay marriage then it will be done. It should not be foisted upon us by socially liberal justices. Currently every single state (14 I think) that has tested gay marriage at the ballot box has had it soundly defeated!

Same can be said for magic and Earth being the center of the universe.

Yes indeed science has come a long way, but they still don’t know why people become gay…go figure

I wonder how many people would believe in ALL of the far fetched stories that are told in the Bible if they were told of them when they were legitimate decision making adults.

Actually many of the “far fetched” stories of the Bible are being proved correct today through archaeologoy. That would be science.

Some people strongly believe that the world is less than a few thousand years old.

I have no idea how old the world is, but I do know that gay marriage won’t be accepted any time soon.

Just goes to show how strong brain-washing can be when it’s started at such a young age.

I think there is a certain amount of brainwashing that goes on in some of our Universities (with kids at a young age). Moral relativism promoted on college campuses has done a great deal of harm to people. Did you notice that anyone who speaks outside the “moral relativism box” at most Universities are ridiculed in some manner?

[Lorisco]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
So you do agree with me. The context of a situation contributes to the morality of any actions taken during that situation.
[/quote]

No, because there are other criterion in the bible as to if something is allowable or not in terms of killing someone. So it’s not just a hard and fast rule.

Okay. But the serial killer is immoral because he kills other people for his own sick pleasure. That’s an action he takes against others, they way he has treated other people. Like I said… his morality.

Let’s use an opposite example to expose the fallacy of your argument:

A good and decent man by all standards has a few too many at the pub and runs a stop sign, sliding into a family of four, killing them all. It is his first offense, and he never drinks this much… it was his brother’s wake. Do we convict him of vehicular manslaughter? Does he not get the DUI because he’s such a moral pillar of the community except for this one time?

Are those people still not dead? Are they somehow less dead because the man was a good person otherwise?

So yes, he should be convicted.

Their (or anyone’s, for that matter) sexual behavior isn’t subject to a negative moral judgment until harm is done. And even then, the context of the situation must be considered before labelling a “good” or “bad” to it. I can’t see how sex could be immoral between two consenting adults, do you? Maybe kinky (all right! handcuffs!) or weird (why is this chick licking my armpit?), but immoral? Hmmm… that’s a tough one.

A gay guy has sex with another gay guy and spreads AIDS. No harm done? I think not!

I don’t know if you realize it, but you just confirmed that once again real morality is a relative thing. Society used to label a woman who wore a skirt above the knee as “evil”. A relative thing. There are no realistic absolutes. Pure good and pure evil do not exist.

When did I ever say I agree with society? Never! My point was that you seem to use the popular PC view of things to determine your morality. And doing that can cause some very sick things to become accepted.

People do immoral things because they decide to act without compassion, kindness, courage, honesty, or generosity. A moral foundation is found by a man when he embraces the concept of what it means for all of us to get along with each other in happiness. When you act against this, you slide into the territory of doing wrong.

True, but how moral is it to agree with a lifestyle that is proven to be both physically and psychologically destructive to those who ingage in it?

So instead of accepting this behavior we should be helping these people see that it is destructive and care enough about them to help them change their lifestyle to something more positive. That is the compassionate thing to do.

[lothario1132]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Ha ha, “a bunch of words?” Like the Declaration of Independence? “A bunch of words” is what civilization stands on my friend.

The Bible is obviously more than a “bunch of words.” In fact, it is the cornerstone of 900 million peoples belief! “Faith” in a higher power, while you may disagree, is a very important part of many peoples lives. In fact, 90% of all Americans say they believe in God![/quote]

Any book is a bunch of words. So is the Declaration of Independence (which you know I hold in very very high regard, personally), so is the latest Harry Potter installment, a street sign, a pamphlet for a local grunge band, a poster advertisement for the 24 hour XXX Adult Supercenter on Tennessee Street… the list is endless. And they are just words. In fact, to be more specific, they are shapes drawn into a material which represent words. A book has no meaning without a person to come along and interpret it. If I gave you a bible written completely in Chinese calligraphy, you wouldn’t even know what you held in your hand. The “specialness” is not an inherent quality of a thing, it is a value given to it in our minds.

You are to fast to dismiss this-But then again you have not read the book so what do you really know? You rely on what you have heard and stereotypes. Does that seem closed minded? It does to me.

It is not close-minded to accept reality for what it is. I like this world just fine without having to invent something else to call the “realer” reality. I am comfortable with the idea of my imagination being… my imagination, and nothing more. There is no such thing as ghosts, witchcraft, demons, etc., etc. These are all things which we invent in our own minds.

[quote]
No, slavaton is achieved through belief that Christ is the son of God died for your sins.

It’s a simple gift which needs to be accepted, or it’s lost.[/quote]

Sorry, I got a little too vaguely psychoanalytic on you back there. I know what you are taught in the bible, I’m trying to look past the surface; let me rephrase myself here:

The Jesus archetype represents selflessness and moral goodness. It is his ultimate act of giving of himself which is the salvation for the rest of us. Like you put it… a gift.

So you guys are told to receive Jesus and his gift, and you shall be saved from the finality of death. That seems so easy… but what is it really to “receive Jesus in your heart”? Are you not told to become Jesus-like, and live a life dedicated to the principles of the church?

[quote]John 3:16

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. That whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only son.”

One way lothario, no other “kind deed” will work.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but I remain unfazed. I will die a condemned man in your faith… maybe tomorrow for all I know. My morality arises from within ME, not from some external source. This is honesty, ZEB.

The same goes for you, if you are willing to admit it. Your belief system holds that there are powers of good and evil in contention over your heart, true? So in effect, you believe that morality is an external thing… an influence from the outside. But that’s pretend, buddy.

You know what’s real? Stuff you can buy at Wal-mart. Everything else is something we create in our own minds, sometimes among many minds. Like the idea of God, or love, or happiness. These are temporary things we create, because they are not “real” without us to make them. I happen to really enjoy love and happiness, so I make as much as I can for as many people as I can. It’s fun.

PS About the destiny thing: I know my destiny. It’s called “tasty worm food”. Unless I die in a fire or something… then it’s “crispy worm food”.

[lothario1132]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
No, because there are other criterion in the bible as to if something is allowable or not in terms of killing someone. So it’s not just a hard and fast rule. [/quote]

So in other words, whether or not killing is allowable in the bible is dependent upon certain situations. Umm… does that maybe sound familiar at all? Situational ethics? I was under the impression that the ten commandments were commandments… not suggestions. Although I must admit that THOU SHOULDT PROBABLY TRY TO AVOID KILLING does sound a little more realistic and relevant to us than what we see God ordering to Moses in the OT.

[quote]Are those people still not dead? Are they somehow less dead because the man was a good person otherwise?

So yes, he should be convicted.[/quote]

Okay. So it IS our actions which define us. Glad you concur. To let that guy off the hook would be to ignore the impact of his deeds upon others, which is what matters in the real world.

A gay guy has sex with another gay guy and spreads AIDS. No harm done? I think not!

Ah, but be careful where you toss that condemnation around, Lorisco! It was not the gayness that gave your hypothetical gay guy AIDS. That was the HIV virus, as you well know. We might as well condemn blood transfusions for spreading HIV and Hepatitis B while we are at it. What we should focus on is condemning risky behavior like unprotected sex with multiple partners, gay or otherwise. THAT’S what spread the virus so quickly back in the 70’s through the gay population… but of course, you already knew that, didn’t you?

When did I ever say I agree with society? Never! My point was that you seem to use the popular PC view of things to determine your morality. And doing that can cause some very sick things to become accepted.

My morality is not up for popular vote, don’t worry. I am not John Kerry! LOL

But really, I think political correctness has its heart in the right place, it’s just that when it’s taken too far it becomes ridiculous and counterproductive. Many good things are like that. If there’s one thing this life has taught me it is the value of moderation.

[quote]… but how moral is it to agree with a lifestyle that is proven to be both physically and psychologically destructive to those who ingage in it?

So instead of accepting this behavior we should be helping these people see that it is destructive and care enough about them to help them change their lifestyle to something more positive. That is the compassionate thing to do.
[/quote]

I would just beg to differ on this. If you want a behavior that is destructive to body and mind, then look no further than gluttony. You have worked with very obese patients – bad health all around, right?

A gay person isn’t harming him or herself just by being gay. This is very different, for example, from a very fat person, because they are definitely hurting themselves by being very fat, and behaving in a way that maintains their lardbuttocity.

And yes, lardbuttocity is a real word.

[lothario1132]

Back on topic, somehow… maybe miracles are real after all.

[quote]ZEB’s refutations were:

1. Gay marriage will create a more stable home environment for children.

That might just be the absolute worst reason I have ever heard for allowing gay marriage! WOW![/quote]

… Spoken just like someone who doesn’t know any gay couples who already have kids in their lives. Let alone those who are seeking to adopt or have children though other means like artificial insemination, etc. Maybe you missed this the first time I said it: they are WAYYY ahead of the game. As much as you don’t want to encourage gayness being around kids, it’s already far too late, ZEB.

If you want to think of this as damage control, then fine… let’s minimize it by being there for those kids. The gayness has happened, and will continue to happen. Might as well not make it worse, right? So let’s see those kids in gay families with some parental figures who are legally married and accepted by society… at least in polite company. Just be nice, dammit! It’s almost (hope I’m not putting words in your mouth here… give me some poetic license, okay?) like you think maybe it’s okay that these kids grow up with the idea that their mom(s) or dad(s) are freaks/perverted/deviant/weird. Don’t do that to children, man… it ain’t helping, I swear. Those kids depend on their parents.

[quote]2) Publicly recognizing the validity of gay relationships will strengthen the ties of the gay community to the rest of us as a whole, thus making our society stronger.

Why do we (as a society) want to stabalize this activity? We don’t even know yet why gay people become gay! I will give you another WOW.[/quote]

And I will take that WOW, and raise you a “WELL… WTF?”

You make it sound like a gay person by definition is a horrible person. Why do we want to stabilize this activity? Geez… I dunno, why should we give two shits about anybody at all? Hey man, I got news for you: a gay person is a person just like you and me. They go poop and vote and everything. You are not any more “special” than they are. Maybe it’s time for us to let them have their gay marriage, huh? Oh, but wait… that would turn society on its head, and ruin a 5000+ year old institution. Nevermind. I forgot how the gay community (some tiny minority) holds the fate of our heterosexual marriage institution in the palms of their dainty hands.

“Hah hah! After I go shopping for boots and drink a soy latte, I will destroy the institution of heterosexual marriage!!”

Good thing you are there to stop them, huh? Those bastards.

[quote]3) Legal status and things like hospital visitations, joint bank accounts, tax filing, etc., in other words, the kinds of legal conveniences that married couples may take for granted but become roadblocks for gay couples… those roadblocks could be lifted if we accept gay marriage.

Some of those things are antiquated anyway and laws need to be changed to fix the problem. Two hetersexual men who are living together and have no family should be allowed “visitation rights” don’t you agree?

Let’s tinker with the system just a bit in order that it’s fair all the way around. We don’t have to change the institution of marriage in order to do that.[/quote]

It’s this that gives me hope. There is a light shining from under the doorway. No, we don’t have to change marriage at all. If you could just see that one more step, you might realize that making gay marriage a legit and legal thing doesn’t damage our normal marriage; then you will have made it. One more rep, man!

Hint: When gay marriage is made legitimate, how does it change things for heterosexuals getting married? Do they have to sign more forms or something? Is it any different to file taxes, get a seat in a restaurant, make it on time to work, find a decent price for airplane tickets, etc., etc.? How does YOUR life change?

[quote]Why can’t you open your heart to Polygamists? Seems you only care about a certain few…[/quote] I told you why I think polygamy is trouble. I know what you are trying to say here, and believe me, I am all about the swingers scene (once in a while), so you can’t really say I’m anti-more than one partner!!

(about the… incest)Having the “ookies” is no excuse in the lothario book everyone must be made happy. It matters not what practice they want to induldge in as long as they are consenting adults. Right?

Hey, I said go ahead and let them do it. Doesn’t mean I have to like it. EEEWWW!!!

LOL I was guessing that you were going to accuse me of being pro-incest somehow.
“Oh LOOK lothario said let a brother and sister GET MARRIED!!! WHAT AN ASSHOLE!!!”

(about stereotyping)Yes, I do believe that! And you sterotype all who believe that and you know it!

Yes!!! To every one of you stereotypical people who believe in the supernatural as reality: You are SILLY!!!

LOL I already know I’m a bit of a smart-ass… It’s something I’m trying to work on, I promise.

[quote]I wrote:
I just call a duck a duck. There’s nothing bigoted about trying to remind someone that just because they believe in something really hard doesn’t make it true. Or even good.

You wrote:
So then by virtue of your philosophy others can call gay people fags and belittle them because they don’t think that their behavior is “even good” in your own words…Make sense yet?[/quote]
Ah yes. You have me there. Hey at least I stopped calling Jesus a sandal-wearing hippie, right? Oops.

Maybe it’s more than the fact that I’m a jerk. I mean, you guys hold the reins of power… your religion let everyone know by a wide margin in that last referendum on gay marriage that common sense and politics do not necessarily mix. What was it? 70% overall against gay marriage, or something like that? Holy crap… no pun intended.

How many atheists do you think will ever get elected president? It sucks being in a minority sometimes. Oh well.

[quote]Here you go:

1Corinthians 1:25:

“For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”
[/quote]

All hail the mighty coolness that is the scripture quote. I don’t have any, for obvious reasons, so how about a movie/TV quote?

“Yaay! I peed in the pool… and it’s okay!!”
-Special Ed, from the show Crank Yankers

Well, I’m going to be away for a few days… take care everybody!

[BigRagoo]

Will everyone give this thread a break? If gays want to marry, give them the fucking dignity to do so. You don’t have to like it, but damn they deserve a life too. It’s ok, the world will not crumble and there will be no prophetic catastrophies. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger issues in this world to deal with than gay marriage. Please quit cluttering this site with this fucking nonsense.

[ZEB]

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Will everyone give this thread a break? If gays want to marry, give them the fucking dignity to do so. You don’t have to like it, but damn they deserve a life too. It’s ok, the world will not crumble and there will be no prophetic catastrophies. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger issues in this world to deal with than gay marriage. Please quit cluttering this site with this fucking nonsense.[/quote]

On behalf of all of us who have been debating this issue. welcome to the thread. I for one hope that you contributions will continue to come in at least weekly if not daily.

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

It is not close-minded to accept reality for what it is. I like this world just fine without having to invent something else to call the “realer” reality. I am comfortable with the idea of my imagination being… my imagination, and nothing more. There is no such thing as ghosts, witchcraft, demons, etc., etc. These are all things which we invent in our own minds.

I think you might want to define “reality” at least how you are using it in the context above. Many very well intended men and women dedicate their lives to Christ who, I assure you are well rooted in “reality.” That it is not your “reality” does not necessarily mean that it is not “reality.”

[quote]Sorry, I got a little too vaguely psychoanalytic on you back there. I know what you are taught in the bible, I’m trying to look past the surface; let me rephrase myself here:

The Jesus archetype represents selflessness and moral goodness. It is his ultimate act of giving of himself which is the salvation for the rest of us. Like you put it… a gift.

So you guys are told to receive Jesus and his gift, and you shall be saved from the finality of death. That seems so easy… but what is it really to “receive Jesus in your heart”? Are you not told to become Jesus-like, and live a life dedicated to the principles of the church?

No, not the “principles of the church.” What is the church? Or should I say; what is the (Christian) church based upon? The Bible!

I’m sorry, but I remain unfazed. I will die a condemned man in your faith… maybe tomorrow for all I know. My morality arises from within ME, not from some external source. This is honesty, ZEB.

I agree it is within you! You are a human being and humans have free will. However, you are indeed basing your morality on outside sources. To say anything else would be denying that nothing has ever influenced your decision making capabilities. And this we know to be ridiculous, as we are all influenced by something or someone.

I choose to be influenced by the Bible and Jesus Christ. You choose to be influenced by___________________?

The same goes for you, if you are willing to admit it. Your belief system holds that there are powers of good and evil in contention over your heart, true? So in effect, you believe that morality is an external thing… an influence from the outside. But that’s pretend, buddy.

You THINK it’s pretend. You have been fooled into believing that it’s “pretend.” Hence, you have no idea what you are missing…at least not yet.

You know what’s real? Stuff you can buy at Wal-mart. Everything else is something we create in our own minds, sometimes among many minds. Like the idea of God, or love, or happiness. These are temporary things we create, because they are not “real” without us to make them. I happen to really enjoy love and happiness, so I make as much as I can for as many people as I can. It’s fun.

Yes the material world does indeed exist. However, to deny that there is a spiritual world with such conviction is foolhardy my friend.

Do you know all there is to know? If not, then how do you know there is no God?

PS About the destiny thing: I know my destiny. It’s called “tasty worm food”. Unless I die in a fire or something… then it’s “crispy worm food”.

If that were the end of it then it might not be that bad. However, if I am right (and I am) then you are indeed headed for more than some worms digestive track. And it’s most unpleasant!

[ZEB]

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

… Spoken just like someone who doesn’t know any gay couples who already have kids in their lives. Let alone those who are seeking to adopt or have children though other means like artificial insemination, etc. Maybe you missed this the first time I said it: they are WAYYY ahead of the game. As much as you don’t want to encourage gayness being around kids, it’s already far too late, ZEB.[/quote]

Um…yea your gay friends are the salt of the earth…I get it.

It’s this other stuff that concerns me (among many other things);

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet3.html

http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf

I know that you don’t like the facts to get in the way of a good emotional argument. However, we have to be far reaching in our attitude about gay marriage before it happens not after.

When you can obtain hard facts on why people become gay come to talk to be about gay marriage. At least there will be something you can hang your hat on.

[quote]And I will take that WOW, and raise you a “WELL… WTF?”

You make it sound like a gay person by definition is a horrible person. Why do we want to stabilize this activity? Geez… I dunno, why should we give two shits about anybody at all? Hey man, I got news for you: a gay person is a person just like you and me. They go poop and vote and everything. You are not any more “special” than they are. Maybe it’s time for us to let them have their gay marriage, huh?[/quote]

Why change society without a good reason? Why put children in a gay home with no proof that it will not damage them in some way? Why? Because you have friends who are gay? Um…not good enough my friend!

[quote]“Hah hah! After I go shopping for boots and drink a soy latte, I will destroy the institution of heterosexual marriage!!”

Good thing you are there to stop them, huh? Those bastards.[/quote]

Way to exaggerate lothario! My reason is we don’t know why people become gay. Furthemore, there is a good body of evidence that those who are gay are not all that happy about it. Now, if that is the case why do you want to create an environment where this lifestyle could possibly be promoted?

I’m not claiming gay people are bad. I’m claiming that there may just be a reason that they are gay which is not in fact (totally) genetic. In fact there is zero proof that it is all genetic! If this is the case then why don’t we try to find out the cause? Get the research first!

You are in a rush to make sure your gay friends are happy. I would rather wait and see to make sure that everyone is happy in the end.

It’s this that gives me hope. There is a light shining from under the doorway. No, we don’t have to change marriage at all. If you could just see that one more step, you might realize that making gay marriage a legit and legal thing doesn’t damage our normal marriage; then you will have made it. One more rep, man!

I am for equal rights under our current law. In fact, I am for broadening that law to accomodate all who might still be slighted regarding the rights discussed (hospitalization etc). However, please don’t hold out any “hope” regarding my stance on gay marriage as I am solidly against it as no one has ever given me (or anyone else for that matter) good reasons why we need to change a 5000+ year old institution to accomodate less than 1% of the population. especially when we don’t even know how people become gay to begin with.

Hint: When gay marriage is made legitimate, how does it change things for heterosexuals getting married? Do they have to sign more forms or something? Is it any different to file taxes, get a seat in a restaurant, make it on time to work, find a decent price for airplane tickets, etc., etc.? How does YOUR life change?

Anything that fundamentally changes the definition of marriage changes society in the long term. Where that will end we don’t know. On it’s face it’s bad enough. However, you stated that you thought adult incest (as long as they could not have children) was okay. Polygamy is fine with you as well. Someone else who has even less traditional moral fiber might think that it’s okay for kids and adults to have sex. Laws defining what a child is can be changed. Some are for that currently-NAMBLA for example.

I am against gay marriage to be sure. But I am even more against relaxing the definition of marriage to include anything beyond one (adult) man and one (adult) woman!

Clear?

“Oh LOOK lothario said let a brother and sister GET MARRIED!!! WHAT AN ASSHOLE!!!”

Would I ever call you names? (Austin Powers voice) “That’s not my bag baby.”

1Corinthians 1:25:

“For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”

Well, I’m going to be away for a few days… take care everybody!

Take care lothario-Always nice debating you (okay not always but most of the time anyway