Progressive Income Tax?

[quote]skor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
skor wrote:
On the simplest level, progressive tax is “more fair” because utility of money is NOT a linear function, but a concave one - marginal utility of money decreases are wealth increases. Doubling your wealth doesn’t double the utility.

What progressive tax “achieves” is a more uniform (across incomes) tax on UTILITY of money, not money itself.

I’m sorry…BULL!

Zeb, you’d better be sorry. Screaming BULL without providing a single economic counter-argument is, well, BULL.

Nowhere in economic theory money by itself goes into the equation. It’s always its utility. Otherwise people would never buy insurance.

What flat tax will do, in the current situation, is redistribute the tax burden towards middle class if we try to sustain the same total. Not a good thing. Some other poster described this problem in much better detail. You told him to forget math. Ha!

Also, can anyone make ANY argument to why Tax = k*Income for some k<1 is a “fair” tax formula? This formila is NOT inherently different from progressive tax enforced at the moment.[/quote]

BULL!..

Allowing more people to keep more of their money will only stimulate the economy which will increase the amount of people paying that flat tax I’m talking about.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Assuming I spend all of my money?

Now that’s just crazy. Zeb is a saver.
[/quote]

Zeb,

Saving your income instead of spending it would result in less taxes to you under my system…

[quote]vroom wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Assuming I spend all of my money?

Now that’s just crazy. Zeb is a saver.

Zeb,

Saving your income instead of spending it would result in less taxes to you under my system… [/quote]

I am not talking about ME specifically.

I would personally do better under the consumption tax which you like.

However, it is still unfair as those who make more will spend more and hence be taxed more.

Under the flat tax everyone is taxed 20% (or so). This way no one is penalized for helping the economy and spending some of that hard earned cash.

My wife for example helps the economy…That’s one reason I have to be the saver of the family.

But honestly even your consumption tax would be far far better than the oppressive mess which we now have.

Zeb,

This is exactly the same as would happen under any flat tax… unless you mean everyone pays $2000 in tax, regardless of income.

A fixed percentage, such as 15%, means that whoever earns more money will pay more tax. This is no different than paying more tax because you SPEND more money, because you have to earn it as INCOME to spend it (unless you are a counterfeiter) anyway.

It really does work out to be equivalent.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
skor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
skor wrote:
On the simplest level, progressive tax is “more fair” because utility of money is NOT a linear function, but a concave one - marginal utility of money decreases are wealth increases. Doubling your wealth doesn’t double the utility.

What progressive tax “achieves” is a more uniform (across incomes) tax on UTILITY of money, not money itself.

I’m sorry…BULL!

Zeb, you’d better be sorry. Screaming BULL without providing a single economic counter-argument is, well, BULL.

Nowhere in economic theory money by itself goes into the equation. It’s always its utility. Otherwise people would never buy insurance.

What flat tax will do, in the current situation, is redistribute the tax burden towards middle class if we try to sustain the same total. Not a good thing. Some other poster described this problem in much better detail. You told him to forget math. Ha!

Also, can anyone make ANY argument to why Tax = k*Income for some k<1 is a “fair” tax formula? This formila is NOT inherently different from progressive tax enforced at the moment.

BULL!..

Allowing more people to keep more of their money will only stimulate the economy which will increase the amount of people paying that flat tax I’m talking about.
[/quote]

Zeb, I don’t think you understand the issue fully. Supposed goverment needs to collect $X to sustain operations and provide necessary services to it’s citizens. How do we collect it? Flat tax or progressive tax? Flat tax will burden middle-class A LOT. The question is not of how MUCH to tax, but what should be RELATIVE taxation.

Marginal tax rate is always less than 1 and I don’t think in fact ever exceeds 50-60%. Hence there IS incentive for people to make more money at ANY level.

[quote]skor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
skor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
skor wrote:
On the simplest level, progressive tax is “more fair” because utility of money is NOT a linear function, but a concave one - marginal utility of money decreases are wealth increases. Doubling your wealth doesn’t double the utility.

What progressive tax “achieves” is a more uniform (across incomes) tax on UTILITY of money, not money itself.

I’m sorry…BULL!

Zeb, you’d better be sorry. Screaming BULL without providing a single economic counter-argument is, well, BULL.

Nowhere in economic theory money by itself goes into the equation. It’s always its utility. Otherwise people would never buy insurance.

What flat tax will do, in the current situation, is redistribute the tax burden towards middle class if we try to sustain the same total. Not a good thing. Some other poster described this problem in much better detail. You told him to forget math. Ha!

Also, can anyone make ANY argument to why Tax = k*Income for some k<1 is a “fair” tax formula? This formila is NOT inherently different from progressive tax enforced at the moment.

BULL!..

Allowing more people to keep more of their money will only stimulate the economy which will increase the amount of people paying that flat tax I’m talking about.

Zeb, I don’t think you understand the issue fully. Supposed goverment needs to collect $X to sustain operations and provide necessary services to it’s citizens.[/quote]

I happen to think that the government is far to big. This creates a burden on the American tax payer that is not needed.

Shrink the government and you will shrink the need for higher taxes.

No it won’t. They will pay no more than 20% flat tax. How is that a burden?

Furthermore, they will not be bothered with the cost and time highering accountants to help them unravel the mystery of our overly burdensome tax code.

You make 60-k this year so you send the government a check for 12-k. No write offs, no exceptions. End of story!

If you decide to take that promotion or work extra hours and make 100-k you will not be penalized for it. You still only pay 20%.

This is a great idea who’s time has come. But the lilly livered scum sucking pandering politicians probably will not have enough guts to push anything like this forward.

And I also the accounting lobby will have something to say since it rips billions from its clutches.

The lawyers and accountants lose with this plan. Only the good guys win.

(Not talking about you rainjack-You are one of the good guys :slight_smile:

Then FIRST reduce government spendings, pay-off national debt with tax-surplus, make sure that the new level is sustainable and then try to switch tax system. However there is no guarantee that other variables will stay in place.

What do you have against this tax system (I made it up to illustrate the point):
Income - Tax = Left, with linear interpolation inbetween
50 - 10 = 40
90 - 20 = 70
170 - 50 = 120.

Progressive tax where people are no penalized for earning more - the more you earn, the more you keep.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I happen to think that the government is far to big. This creates a burden on the American tax payer that is not needed.

Shrink the government and you will shrink the need for higher taxes.

How do we collect it? Flat tax or progressive tax? Flat tax will burden middle-class A LOT.

No it won’t. They will pay no more than 20% flat tax. How is that a burden?

Furthermore, they will not be bothered with the cost and time highering accountants to help them unravel the mystery of our overly burdensome tax code.

You make 60-k this year so you send the government a check for 12-k. No write offs, no exceptions. End of story!

If you decide to take that promotion or work extra hours and make 100-k you will not be penalized for it. You still only pay 20%.

This is a great idea who’s time has come. But the lilly livered scum sucking pandering politicians probably will not have enough guts to push anything like this forward.

And I also the accounting lobby will have something to say since it rips billions from its clutches.

The lawyers and accountants lose with this plan. Only the good guys win.

(Not talking about you rainjack-You are one of the good guys :slight_smile:

[/quote]

[quote]vroom wrote:
What’s the matter Headhunter, unable to attack the position so you have nothing better to do than throw jibes at the people involved instead?

Is that how you teach your students to deal with issues? If you don’t know what you are talking about and you are looking like a chump, just go on a tangent about some minor point and be insulting.

Good plan teach!

Now, do you have anything remotely intelligible to say about a consumption tax at all?[/quote]

And how was your Easter, Vroom? LOL!

You are the master of doing precisely what you ascribe to me. That was hilarious!!

Consumption tax? Does this mean you want to tax people with tuberculosis? Nah, just kidding…

Did you read above, where I suggested a ‘tax’ on all real estate transactions? Nope, I guess not.
In so far as one must be taxed, I want as much freedom as possible in the process. A tax on consumption is not voluntary on all sides (none, actually). I therefore oppose your scheme on philosophical grounds. (Hint, hint,…this means I don’t grant your premises.)

I don’t see why you guys are willing to hand a government a leash and a chain and then hope to be free. You are arguing about which form of slavery is better.

LMAO!!

Headhunter,

I had a nice relaxing Easter.

Anyway, are you aware of any government that has a voluntary tax payment system? If so, I’d like to hear about it…

Easter a time that Christ rose from the grave.

Now it’s time to put our current income tax system IN the grave.

(See how I cleverly worked in religion with politics? Two things that really should not be discussed :slight_smile:

I’m still on the fence w/r/t a flat tax or national sales tax. One things fer sher, either one would be better than shitty, convoluted system we have now.

You smell what I’m cookin?


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/3797248.html

April 16, 2006, 8:00PM
Behold the simple virtues of a fair national sales tax
[i]Tax code is a disgrace that needs an overhaul

By LEO LINBECK

WITH millions of Americans once again struggling to complete their federal income taxes, it is a good time to reflect on the profoundly dysfunctional and highly punitive federal tax code that only gets more complicated year after year.

The patchwork quilt of tax loopholes, exclusions, adjustments and various forms and schedules that we all struggle to understand is a reflection of the wholesale auctioning off of the tax code over the last several decades into the hands of an army of powerful, well-heeled lobbyists. The hallway in front of the tax code-writing House Ways and Means Committee where they practice their lavishly compensated trade has even been dubbed “Gucci Gulch” in recognition of the $1,000 shoes worn by many lobbyists.

Tax policy is big business in Washington. Members of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee and their staff are routinely paid signing bonuses of a million dollars and more when they join powerful Washington lobbying firms. Recent revelations about the clout of some Washington lobbyists pale in comparison to the real and hidden influence of tax lobbyists on both citizens’ responsibilities to the national government and the nation’s economic well-being. It is little wonder that these staffers and their bosses so passionately object to efforts to win fundamental reforms.

Unfortunately, Americans have learned to fear “tax simplification” because the tax code always gets more, not less, complicated in the lobbyists’ hands. The code is so complex that even the Internal Revenue Service fails about half of the time to accurately answer taxpayers’ questions, and even H&R Block has been fined for getting its own taxes wrong.

This complexity gives rise to another staggering $265 billion a year in tax compliance costs by legions of frustrated citizens and busy auditors, tax preparers, lawyers and corporate compliance specialists.

Compliance costs alone represent a greater sum than the combined annual revenues of Sears, Walt Disney, Microsoft, Rite Aid and McDonald’s. That honest citizens must spend so much time and money in order to comply with a federal law is an indignity that seems lost on many critics of a national sales tax.

As the founder of a national campaign to replace the income tax with a transparent, simple and non-regressive national sales tax, I have seen first hand the lengths that both elected officials and the entourage fed by the tax code will go to defend their turf.

In recent deliberations by the President’s Advisory Panel on Tax Reform, for example, millions of dollars of top level research by recognized economists supporting the FairTax proposal was simply swept under the rug. The panel was charged with suggesting fundamental reform but failed to deliver under the leadership of two former U.S. senators ? both of whom work in firms lobbying the tax code.

When we began our work at FairTax.Org, we naively thought that our common-sense proposal of a national sales tax that eliminates the IRS, un-taxes the poor, favors American producers and is simple enough to be understood by a child would be welcomed by our elected officials. To date, more than 55 courageous members of the Congress agree. But, we have now come to understand that nothing less than a national roar of citizen condemnation will force reform.

Once upon a time our tax policy may have been intended to spur growth in segments of the economy while fairly funding the government. Today it is simply a lucrative Washington business that specializes in shearing taxpaying sheep while rewarding those wealthy enough to buy into the corrupt auction of taxpayer’s wealth. This assault on taxpayers and the nation’s best interests cries out for fundamental reform.[/i]

BigFlame,

Nice.

Yeah, what I love about a consumption tax is that I don’t have to track or report a damned thing.

Why should the monkey be put on my back to do all kinds of expensive and error prone activities because the government wants my money.

Piss off. It’s called customer service – make my life easy! Maybe I don’t want to track receipts…

I wish more government agencies would embrace the idea of customer service. The department I work for pushes this concept fairly heavy and we get phenomenal results. It’s amazing what an agency can get as far as a milleage when the taxpayer feels taken care of instead of being taken advantage of.

The idea that government employees work directly for the taxpayer is all but a lost concept at the federal level.

[quote]skor wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
skor wrote:
On the simplest level, progressive tax is “more fair” because utility of money is NOT a linear function, but a concave one - marginal utility of money decreases are wealth increases. Doubling your wealth doesn’t double the utility.

What progressive tax “achieves” is a more uniform (across incomes) tax on UTILITY of money, not money itself.

True, but putting in controls for those at the lower end of the scale for basic needs would fix that inequity. You could do this by lower end tax cuts. But aside from that, it is all about social architecture.

Well, there is no qualitative difference between progressive tax and tax cuts for the “poor”. Relatively it’s all the same, given that enough of taxes is collected to support necessary (and unnecessary;) )operations.

It IS all about social architecture and some value-decisions are to be made. I just do NOT understand people who feel that flat tax rate is a “fair” thing. Because is flat rate is fair, it has to be applied to utility, not amount of money itself.[/quote]

I guess that would depend on your definition of “poor”. Making adjustments for the poor (whatever that number looks like - based on the value of the dollar and needed services and what they make) and give everyone else a flat rate would be fair in my estimation.

Taking care of the poor and punishing the rich are two different things. I think we can have a modified flat tax to take care of the poor while not punishing the rich.

[quote]hspder wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I think looking at the economic and social base of Washington State and Nevada would and has proven you wrong. They are doing and have been doing what you are saying is not feasible for many years.

You really need to look up at the laws in those States a little better.

People there still pay Federal Income Tax. And Medicare. And Social Security. That’s why they manage to survive – thanks to the Federal Government which pays those bills.
[/quote]

You need to look again. I lived in Washington State and can tell you that many of those things are not supported by the Fed. They come from local property taxes and sales taxes. The difference is that their system is very efficient and they don’t have a shit-load of excess governmental waste like a lot of States.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Easter a time that Christ rose from the grave.

Now it’s time to put our current income tax system IN the grave.

(See how I cleverly worked in religion with politics? Two things that really should not be discussed :)[/quote]

THAT was quality! Good one!

[quote]vroom wrote:
A tax on consumption is not voluntary on all sides…

Headhunter,

I had a nice relaxing Easter.

Anyway, are you aware of any government that has a voluntary tax payment system? If so, I’d like to hear about it…[/quote]

Nope. It won’t happen until politicians see that doing so would be in their interests. Only when compulsion is realized to be less functional than freedom will such a system have a chance.

My hope is that this realization happens before we descend into a chaos of misery and destruction. We can’t expect to treat human beings as unthinking brutes, forcing them to ‘pay up’, without them ‘living up’ to expectations.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
skor wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
skor wrote:
On the simplest level, progressive tax is “more fair” because utility of money is NOT a linear function, but a concave one - marginal utility of money decreases are wealth increases. Doubling your wealth doesn’t double the utility.

What progressive tax “achieves” is a more uniform (across incomes) tax on UTILITY of money, not money itself.

True, but putting in controls for those at the lower end of the scale for basic needs would fix that inequity. You could do this by lower end tax cuts. But aside from that, it is all about social architecture.

Well, there is no qualitative difference between progressive tax and tax cuts for the “poor”. Relatively it’s all the same, given that enough of taxes is collected to support necessary (and unnecessary;) )operations.

It IS all about social architecture and some value-decisions are to be made. I just do NOT understand people who feel that flat tax rate is a “fair” thing. Because is flat rate is fair, it has to be applied to utility, not amount of money itself.

I guess that would depend on your definition of “poor”. Making adjustments for the poor (whatever that number looks like - based on the value of the dollar and needed services and what they make) and give everyone else a flat rate would be fair in my estimation.

Taking care of the poor and punishing the rich are two different things. I think we can have a modified flat tax to take care of the poor while not punishing the rich.
[/quote]

Absolutely. But you’ll punish the middle class.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I’m still on the fence w/r/t a flat tax or national sales tax. One things fer sher, either one would be better than shitty, convoluted system we have now.

You smell what I’m cookin?


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/3797248.html

April 16, 2006, 8:00PM
Behold the simple virtues of a fair national sales tax
[i]Tax code is a disgrace that needs an overhaul

By LEO LINBECK

WITH millions of Americans once again struggling to complete their federal income taxes, it is a good time to reflect on the profoundly dysfunctional and highly punitive federal tax code that only gets more complicated year after year.

The patchwork quilt of tax loopholes, exclusions, adjustments and various forms and schedules that we all struggle to understand is a reflection of the wholesale auctioning off of the tax code over the last several decades into the hands of an army of powerful, well-heeled lobbyists. The hallway in front of the tax code-writing House Ways and Means Committee where they practice their lavishly compensated trade has even been dubbed “Gucci Gulch” in recognition of the $1,000 shoes worn by many lobbyists.

Tax policy is big business in Washington. Members of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee and their staff are routinely paid signing bonuses of a million dollars and more when they join powerful Washington lobbying firms. Recent revelations about the clout of some Washington lobbyists pale in comparison to the real and hidden influence of tax lobbyists on both citizens’ responsibilities to the national government and the nation’s economic well-being. It is little wonder that these staffers and their bosses so passionately object to efforts to win fundamental reforms.

Unfortunately, Americans have learned to fear “tax simplification” because the tax code always gets more, not less, complicated in the lobbyists’ hands. The code is so complex that even the Internal Revenue Service fails about half of the time to accurately answer taxpayers’ questions, and even H&R Block has been fined for getting its own taxes wrong.

This complexity gives rise to another staggering $265 billion a year in tax compliance costs by legions of frustrated citizens and busy auditors, tax preparers, lawyers and corporate compliance specialists.

Compliance costs alone represent a greater sum than the combined annual revenues of Sears, Walt Disney, Microsoft, Rite Aid and McDonald’s. That honest citizens must spend so much time and money in order to comply with a federal law is an indignity that seems lost on many critics of a national sales tax.

As the founder of a national campaign to replace the income tax with a transparent, simple and non-regressive national sales tax, I have seen first hand the lengths that both elected officials and the entourage fed by the tax code will go to defend their turf.

In recent deliberations by the President’s Advisory Panel on Tax Reform, for example, millions of dollars of top level research by recognized economists supporting the FairTax proposal was simply swept under the rug. The panel was charged with suggesting fundamental reform but failed to deliver under the leadership of two former U.S. senators ? both of whom work in firms lobbying the tax code.

When we began our work at FairTax.Org, we naively thought that our common-sense proposal of a national sales tax that eliminates the IRS, un-taxes the poor, favors American producers and is simple enough to be understood by a child would be welcomed by our elected officials. To date, more than 55 courageous members of the Congress agree. But, we have now come to understand that nothing less than a national roar of citizen condemnation will force reform.

Once upon a time our tax policy may have been intended to spur growth in segments of the economy while fairly funding the government. Today it is simply a lucrative Washington business that specializes in shearing taxpaying sheep while rewarding those wealthy enough to buy into the corrupt auction of taxpayer’s wealth. This assault on taxpayers and the nation’s best interests cries out for fundamental reform.[/i]

[/quote]

You can have simplification without a flat tax (terrible idea) or a sales tax. A sales tax is a bad idea because it weighs unfairly on those who have less, because they spend a far greater proportion of their income (I hope no one is going to dispute this). Progressive taxation may not be great, but regressive taxation is even worse.

I don’t like a national sales tax – a set -rate (as opposed to a progressive-rate) income tax is the way to go.

The problem with our current tax system is there is far too much social policy embedded in it – and once people accepted the concept of targeted tax breaks (or increases) as acceptable social policy, then the door was opened to using the tax system for pork and favors.