Princesses, White Knights & Superheros

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
DB- I agree with everything you wrote, which is why I haven’t responded. Nice work :)[/quote]

Thank you! You know, I meant to add something in there somewhere. I don’t know how much this applies to the other men on here, but for me, physical attraction is a must in order for me to be in any sort of relationship with a woman. That being said, it is literally ALWAYS some intellectual turn-off that sours me on a particular woman. I would be willing to bet that this holds true for most men.

So I think that, while women certainly can point to their sexuality as a virtue or a positive part of their character, ultimately it is what is inside that keeps men twisted around their fingers. Physical attractiveness is definitely a selling point for women, but the ultimate aphrodisiac is intellect. I think it’s a shame that there are many women out there who lose sight of this.[/quote]

If you look at the most powerful whores of all time, you’ll find that most of them used humor and wit to attracted the eyes of royalty because at a certain point there’s no other way to stand out. I remember reading that one of them threw a piece of food at the royalty she was trying to attract the attention of during a fancy dinner and a food fight ensued. I’d say it’s all a part of the sexual package.

I’m under the impression that more women hold intellect as an important part of the package nowdays than ever before, for the sole reason that it’s only been during the last 75 years that women were proven to be as intelligent as men (thank you MENSA and standardized testing). Had we all been born two hundred years ago, we would all know for a “fact” that women were mentally inferior to men.

[quote]Westclock wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder what “a woman using her sexuality over men” consists of.

For instance, I was offered a job at a mortgage firm once based soley on my “assets” (the manager’s words) and decided to accept it (he literally walked out of his office as I was walking by dressed in a business suit in a way to my job at a department store and asked if I wanted a job). In that field, it’s all about looks and charisma, even though the job description is exclusively number crunching and networking. Is that using my sexual assets over men? [/quote]

Unfortunately, no one will ever escape the base instincts.

Women are the female. They are valued for their ability to produce healthy children that carry and express favorable genes.
Which automatically means women at the core are valued most highly by all for their youth and beauty.

Men are the male. And are therefore valued almost exclusively for their ability to produce genetically superior offspring (genes) and to provide, protect, and care for the female during her vulnerable pregnancy, and then for the children themselves.

Men are valued for their power and not much else.

Physical power, financial resources, influence, etc.

Its all just forms of power.

Women will never be valued at basic instinct level in society for their power, or intelligence to the same degree that a male is as it is his genetic purpose.

Nor will they ever break away from the youth/beauty stigma, as it is their genetic purpose.

Weak males with no power, financial, influence, etc are valueless to females, they dont even glance at them.

Just as ugly or older females are worthless to males.

Cuts both ways, just in different forms, women complain about it more in my opinion, but few people consider how shattering it is to “weak” males that cant do much about their situation.

Women blame men for discrimination but we dont always realize we are doing it, nor would it even make sense for us to treat people of less worth as equals to others; just to be “politically correct”.

Women do the same exact thing to countless men. But you never see women acknowledge that.[/quote]

If you remove physical power from the equation, there is little to differentiate men and women on a practical level. Physical strength is irrelevant in a modern world and is even considered a negative quality (just look at stereotypes.) That doesn’t mean it’s correct but it’s what fashion currently dictates in some circles. What you’re saying is that there is no sociological basis for the status quo and we’re just living out our base biological urges. That’s a pretty bold statement for an animal that has enjoyed a very successful survival based on it’s incredible ability to adapt largely due to it’s highly social behavior…

If you want to look at the reality of the distribution of power as an example of genetic fate then you would have to also consider racial inequities. Is that also a result of base instinct?

A better explanation would be that humans have a limited capacity for understanding and perpetuate patterns of ideas that we can understand.

How did a thread about Superheros degrade into a conversation about sexual power?

Tell ya what, Deb and O can fight it out in a Jell-O Wrasselin competition.

I’d be down with that

Well Edgy, what about superheroes? Do they have a place in today’s society? Why do they exist? And which one would you want to bang the most? Me, I prefer Catwoman, although she isn’t really a “superhero”. SOmething about the claws really turns me on.

I think Wonder Woman would snap my neck if I tried choking her mid-fuck. The Invisible Woman would be pretty hot though. Then I could just watch my dick blow a load inside of her!

[quote]Edgy wrote:
How did a thread about Superheros degrade into a conversation about sexual power?

Tell ya what, Deb and O can fight it out in a Jell-O Wrasselin competition.

I’d be down with that[/quote]

That does not look like Jell-O more like Vomit.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Well Edgy, what about superheroes? Do they have a place in today’s society? Why do they exist? And which one would you want to bang the most? Me, I prefer Catwoman, although she isn’t really a “superhero”. SOmething about the claws really turns me on.

I think Wonder Woman would snap my neck if I tried choking her mid-fuck. The Invisible Woman would be pretty hot though. Then I could just watch my dick blow a load inside of her! [/quote]

According to Professor X, I’m a White Knight. I think he hates me tho-

Superheros DO have a place in our society. Otherwise all we’d have to look up to is our sorry ass Presidents. In my case, Governator.

Can’t think of a Superhero that I’d wanna be nekkid with…'Cept’n’mebbe Robin. That is a chick, no?

[quote]Westclock wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder what “a woman using her sexuality over men” consists of.

For instance, I was offered a job at a mortgage firm once based soley on my “assets” (the manager’s words) and decided to accept it (he literally walked out of his office as I was walking by dressed in a business suit in a way to my job at a department store and asked if I wanted a job). In that field, it’s all about looks and charisma, even though the job description is exclusively number crunching and networking. Is that using my sexual assets over men? [/quote]

Unfortunately, no one will ever escape the base instincts.

Women are the female. They are valued for their ability to produce healthy children that carry and express favorable genes.
Which automatically means women at the core are valued most highly by all for their youth and beauty.

Men are the male. And are therefore valued almost exclusively for their ability to produce genetically superior offspring (genes) and to provide, protect, and care for the female during her vulnerable pregnancy, and then for the children themselves.

Men are valued for their power and not much else.

Physical power, financial resources, influence, etc.

Its all just forms of power.

Women will never be valued at basic instinct level in society for their power, or intelligence to the same degree that a male is as it is his genetic purpose.

Nor will they ever break away from the youth/beauty stigma, as it is their genetic purpose.

Weak males with no power, financial, influence, etc are valueless to females, they dont even glance at them.

Just as ugly or older females are worthless to males.

Cuts both ways, just in different forms, women complain about it more in my opinion, but few people consider how shattering it is to “weak” males that cant do much about their situation.

Women blame men for discrimination but we dont always realize we are doing it, nor would it even make sense for us to treat people of less worth as equals to others; just to be “politically correct”.

Women do the same exact thing to countless men. But you never see women acknowledge that.[/quote]

He deserved a bump.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
DB - So if women using their sexuality (i.e. body) as power is wrong, is guys using greater strength (i.e. body) as power equally wrong?

Although the goal is equality there has historically been a power difference in western culture. And while some institutions have gone to great effort to maintain it that does not explain how it originated. All power is relational. Which gender has more power over the other in whatever situation is culturally defined and negotiated. So to ask my question from above in a different way, why have guys gotten and maintained the dominant role? Perhaps too big of a question, but I would think it has to do with force.[/quote]

If men use their power to elevate themselves above women, then yes, it is wrong. It is wrong to use any power for ill will. The problem I have with women using their sexuality for gains is that isn’t necessarily wrong (it can be, but not all the time), but that it sells women short. Women don’t have to resort to manipulation to succeed in life. Virtues like honesty and intellect can work just as well in certain situations.

Men occupy the proverbial higher position because we have used our powers to keep women down, which is wrong. It promotes a culture of inequality. Women aren’t inferior to men as a whole. But if women use their “powers” to get even or whatever through manipulative means, that just sinks them down to the level of the men who would use their own powers for less-than good means.

Think about it: if women use sex as a tool to get even, they use it against the weaknesses of men. But men and women are created equally in general, so to use sex as a tool against men only prolongs a fight against two equally-matched foes. Is that what women want? Is that what they use their sexuality for? To use it against someone instead for themselves? If there is to be a winner and a loser in this proverbial battle of the sexes, then that must assume then that one side is not equal to the other.[/quote]

I apologize if this seems a bit random, but I am curious. Do you see the mind as greater than the body? And, what role does the body have in the development and display of the self?[/quote]

I’ve never really thought of one being greater than the other. I do firmly believe that a sound body leads to a sound mind, in a general sense. If I had to rank the two, I would say that the mind is greater simply because it is a) what controls the body and b) the mind is so much more mysterious and has so much more “depth” to it than the body does. But I don’t necessarily think that one has to be greater than the other. They are inextricably linked to one other.

In regards to the development of self and the body’s role, well…that’s a pretty loaded question. In today’s society (although this holds true in virtually any society) we tend to put stock in our outward appearance, our physical self, to the point that we tend to think of how we look as being who we are. It’s almost that way to an extreme now, which is why we have such a rampant culture of consumerism. We are constantly bombarded by the media with the message that we can change who we are by changing what we wear, what we drive, what we listen to, what we look like, etc etc. By looking better, younger, fitter, we can feel better, younger, fitter. But we don’t hear that message the other way around. Why? Because there isn’t much money to be made in “selling” spirituality. Companies don’t make money by telling us that if we strive to feel better about ourselves inside, that we’ll look better on the outside.

And I’ve talked about spiritual bankruptcy on here in the past, and I think this is a perfect example. Many people seek to find solace and comfort in material things, as if material possessions/wealth can bring us happiness. But they don’t always accomplish this. What you own and how much money you have doesn’t really help improve your relationship with the people around you, unless they ultimately place more value in what you have rather than who you are as a person.

It’s like this: if I desire material possessions and that is what I use to evaluate my success as a human being, then I’ll forever be unhappy. There will always be a better car, or nicer clothes, or a bigger house and so on. But if I accept that improving myself from within and seeking some level of spirituality (not religion, although this can encompass spirituality) then I find that these possessions are immaterial to me as a person. It’s the same with the body. If I place more importance on my physical development than my spiritual/mental development, when is it enough? There’s always going to be someone bigger, stronger, faster, sexier, etc etc. But when it comes to the mind, true spirituality can eliminate the need to be smarter, wittier, etc. There’s no need to compete then.

I don’t know, it’s hard for me to explain. I think that there is a way to develop both the mind and the body together for spiritual purposes. “The Tao of Jeet Kune Do” by Bruce Lee is a good starting point for this. I think the bottom line is that if we place a higher importance on the development of the body than the mind, we run into trouble. But if we develop one to improve the other and vice versa, this is a good way to achieving some sort of spiritual balance between the two. I guess that’s what the yin and the yang is all about.[/quote]

There is a theory that, much like what you wrote here, suggests that the cultural trend away from meta-narrative religions (this does not mean away from spirituality but rather from organized religion), thus away from these mate-narratives that define for their followers who they are, what they should do or not do with their bodies, and the roles thus power relations between the genders. So as culture moves away from this towards something else the body becomes the focus of their (re)definitions of the self (for much of the reasons you mention above). In other words, the body moves from being perfect to a project - something that needs to be changed. Our presentation of our bodies is how we are judged and judge others rather than through the symbolic labels of religion.

Judeo-Christian tradition sets the body as a place of sin/desire/weakness with the mind as a higher place. Descartes “I think therefore I am” is considered the basis for mind as important, body as subservient - the mind separating us from animals and our biology. Within this framework, both mentioned here, male=mind=rational=dominant and female=body=emotion=submissive. Evidence of the prevalence of these associations are easy enough to find in western culture. So equality of the genders challenges hundreds of years of western thought and its major religious traditions and associated institutions. That said, white knights and princesses fit nicely in this tradition.

But I still wonder where superheroes fit…

[quote]debraD wrote:
If you remove physical power from the equation, there is little to differentiate men and women on a practical level. Physical strength is irrelevant in a modern world and is even considered a negative quality (just look at stereotypes.) That doesn’t mean it’s correct but it’s what fashion currently dictates in some circles.
[/quote]

This has much truth in it. Look at how the recession affect traditionally male jobs and traditionally female jobs are where much of the growth sectors are, plus graduation rates for women at all levels of education to see how this is a shift the power dynamic because physical strength is less influential.

[quote]debraD wrote:
What you’re saying is that there is no sociological basis for the status quo and we’re just living out our base biological urges. That’s a pretty bold statement for an animal that has enjoyed a very successful survival based on it’s incredible ability to adapt largely due to it’s highly social behavior…
[/quote]

I agree.

Western culture has spent hundreds of years trying to teach us that we are different and above our biology. To suddenly turn to biology to explain the power dynamic is both ignoring and challenging western culture to this point. Ignoring biology completely would be ludicrous as well.

^Trav saves the day~

Yaaaaaaa Trav!

Sometimes I don’t like humans all that much. I’m not really a fan of primates in general (I always thought they were the ugliest animals when I was little). Westclock’s post reminded me of this.

I can’t argue much against what’s flying back and forth now because there’s truth to both sides and am interested to see how it’ll pan out.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Sometimes I don’t like men all that much. I’m not really a fan of men in general (I always thought they were the ugliest animals when I was little). Westclock’s post reminded me of this.

I can’t argue much against what’s flying back and forth in Travs picture now because there’s truth to both sides and am interested to see how it’ll pan out.[/quote]

What are you guys talking about?

White Knight - Guy who has placed women on a pedestal, because he doesn’t understand reality. He seems to think that shit you see in romantic comedies reflects the real world. Disrespect a woman in his presence and he is seething to fight you, or at least put on a show like he wants to. He thinks this will get him laid, but it really is just rapidly drying out the vagina in question. Celibate losers.

Princess - Girl with entitlement issues, no matter how physically unattractive she is. These issues stem from pussies like White Knights hanging on her every word since she hit puberty, in a futile attempt to get laid, and her parents telling her since birth that she is a princess and deserves the best of everything for the rest of her life. Usually quite a bit overweight and/or ugly. Just like every other american woman.

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Westclock wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I’m beginning to wonder what “a woman using her sexuality over men” consists of.

For instance, I was offered a job at a mortgage firm once based soley on my “assets” (the manager’s words) and decided to accept it (he literally walked out of his office as I was walking by dressed in a business suit in a way to my job at a department store and asked if I wanted a job). In that field, it’s all about looks and charisma, even though the job description is exclusively number crunching and networking. Is that using my sexual assets over men? [/quote]

Unfortunately, no one will ever escape the base instincts.

Women are the female. They are valued for their ability to produce healthy children that carry and express favorable genes.
Which automatically means women at the core are valued most highly by all for their youth and beauty.

Men are the male. And are therefore valued almost exclusively for their ability to produce genetically superior offspring (genes) and to provide, protect, and care for the female during her vulnerable pregnancy, and then for the children themselves.

Men are valued for their power and not much else.

Physical power, financial resources, influence, etc.

Its all just forms of power.

Women will never be valued at basic instinct level in society for their power, or intelligence to the same degree that a male is as it is his genetic purpose.

Nor will they ever break away from the youth/beauty stigma, as it is their genetic purpose.

Weak males with no power, financial, influence, etc are valueless to females, they dont even glance at them.

Just as ugly or older females are worthless to males.

Cuts both ways, just in different forms, women complain about it more in my opinion, but few people consider how shattering it is to “weak” males that cant do much about their situation.

Women blame men for discrimination but we dont always realize we are doing it, nor would it even make sense for us to treat people of less worth as equals to others; just to be “politically correct”.

Women do the same exact thing to countless men. But you never see women acknowledge that.[/quote]

If you remove physical power from the equation, there is little to differentiate men and women on a practical level. Physical strength is irrelevant in a modern world and is even considered a negative quality (just look at stereotypes.) That doesn’t mean it’s correct but it’s what fashion currently dictates in some circles. What you’re saying is that there is no sociological basis for the status quo and we’re just living out our base biological urges. That’s a pretty bold statement for an animal that has enjoyed a very successful survival based on it’s incredible ability to adapt largely due to it’s highly social behavior…

If you want to look at the reality of the distribution of power as an example of genetic fate then you would have to also consider racial inequities. Is that also a result of base instinct?

A better explanation would be that humans have a limited capacity for understanding and perpetuate patterns of ideas that we can understand.
[/quote]

Dont get me wrong.

I tremendously enjoy the rise of women as equal financial providers.

Men die nearly a decade sooner, and its not simply because we are riskier and built to burn harder, faster, and not as long.

Men for years, my father’s generation included, endured tremendous stress and burden of responsibility.

To have several lives depend almost solely upon your ability to succeed is ABSURD responsibility.
Men bore all the responsibility, really until recently in our history.

I am literally ALL for women sharing equal parts of this responsibility if they wish to. We would never admit it, but the double income family is the largest blow to the male ego in centuries, but also the greatest relief you can imagine.

At the core, our loved ones are more important than our egos.

Women have NEARLY the same earning potential as men these days, its only slightly less due to the fact that women are on average less assertive and aggressive, but again that is mostly hormonal differences.

Physicality can never truly be removed from the equation as it is so deeply rooted in base instincts, tall people for example make more money simply because they demand more respect for no other reason than that they are above others phsycially.

And men are simply more aggressive and decisive on average, a male will make a decision quickly and stand behind it 100%, even if it is based on nothing but a hunch.

This works well in snap decision making, war, business, etc.

A wrong decision made with 100% is always still better than wavering and making no decision.

Men have advantages over women in many areas, and I doubt that is likely to change ever. But those advantages are not incredibly significant on average, and women are moving foward fast enough that I think we will see interesting changes in the next few generations…

I honestly do not think that women will ever have more power than men, simply because they do not WISH to have more.

Equal ? maybe. But in my experience, women like to feel weak compared to their male, protected. Its a base instinct, it can be overridden, but its a bit too natural to ignore.

I assert that women are not completely equal to men because at this time men have advantages they are simply born with. AND because simply women do not have the desire to become the dominant sex, they WANT to be slightly lower.

It sounds absurd, but if you think about it from a personal perspective, it really is true.

I’d say equal in different ways. We do have some advantages that men have always been jealous of and tried to control- such as giving birth. This isn’t spoken of in a favorable light nowdays due to the overpopulation problem, but many men do want children and can’t get one just by forgetting to take their birthcontrol.

There’s more than one type of strength and women have for most of time succeeded in places where men have repeatedly failed. Take Queen Elizabeth the first, for example. After Generations of men brought down England, one young girl comes along and says “Let’s think twice before taking the other ruler’s head; we might be setting a precedence. Instead of going to war, let’s think of new money streams. Also, let’s make friends with criminals instead of hanging them and use the money to benefit the people.” Patience and listening to opposing ideas from good counsel are two extremely important leadership skills which men aren’t socialized to possess, but history has proven to have great benefit.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Patience and listening to opposing ideas from good counsel are two extremely important leadership skills which men aren’t socialized to possess, but history has proven to have great benefit.[/quote]

Key word is ‘socialized’. The differences in the genders is by far more cultural than biologic.

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Patience and listening to opposing ideas from good counsel are two extremely important leadership skills which men aren’t socialized to possess, but history has proven to have great benefit.[/quote]

Key word is ‘socialized’. The differences in the genders is by far more cultural than biologic.[/quote]

Hence my word choice :slight_smile:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:
i’ve always described myself as equal parts princess & gym rat. [/quote]

Could you describe the terms then? I there have been a few different definitions of princess put out there, how do you see it? I am interested in your definition of gym rat as well since that has a male connotation to it.[/quote]

the princess part of me likes to paint my nails, shop, curl my hair… etc

the gym rat part of me wears a mens beater to the gym and lifts heavy [/quote]

so are you equating feminine with princess?[/quote]

i guess i am smarty pants

[quote]ladieslove wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:
i’ve always described myself as equal parts princess & gym rat. [/quote]

Could you describe the terms then? I there have been a few different definitions of princess put out there, how do you see it? I am interested in your definition of gym rat as well since that has a male connotation to it.[/quote]

the princess part of me likes to paint my nails, shop, curl my hair… etc

the gym rat part of me wears a mens beater to the gym and lifts heavy [/quote]

so are you equating feminine with princess?[/quote]

i guess i am smarty pants [/quote]

I did not want to assume so I asked for clarification.