Restless=Idiot
We were talking about freeing the Iraq people WAAYY before the hunt for WMD really began. Even as the invasion got underway. You are so forgetful. Of course…that suits your politics.
Restless
Africa for the Africans, this was the catch cry in the dying days of colonialism. Well depending on the region Africans have had total control of Africa for 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years. The problems of Africa today (or any other part of the world) are not due to Europeans. Europeans have no duty to either fix the problems of Africa (or any other part of the world) directly or shelter the refugees that flee from those problems.
I disagree. I think that Europe has an obligation to help rectify the situations in the various African nations.
During the colonial period when a lot of European countries where busy dividing up Africa they didnt pay attention to the diverse array of tribes and nationalities. As a result you had many different ethnic and racial groups who had long histories of animosity stuck together in the same countries.
When the occupying powers withdrew they did so without effectively dealing with the problem they had played a part in and left these warring factions to fight it out. Admittedly something should have been done at the time but it wasnt. I therefore think that all the old colonial powers do have a degree of responsibility in cleaning up the mess they helped make.
Spiderman
The problems Africa has (i.e. AIDS, war, poverty, famine) have developed since the countries of Africa gained independence from European powers. They are not due to Europeans.
Ex-pats left Africa with the infrastructure (i.e. roads, railways, functioning democracies, mines and plantations) Africa needed to bloom. It is not the Europeans fault that this inheritance was destroyed. It is not good enough for Mugabe or anyone else to scapegoat Europeans for Africa?s or for that matter the Worlds problems.
Also the belief you can compensate for history is ludicrous. The idea that Europe is liable to fix Africa?s problems holds as much weight as Turkey being liable to fix the problems of the Balkans.
lumpy,
Actually the chant is hillary in 2004!!! Or, “If we lose we will unleash 10,000 lawyers.” Or, “The election was stolen from gore.”
The last one is my favorite. Isn’t it a shame when laws get in the way of the democratic agenda? By the way, if your hero gore felt so maligned, why isn’t he game for a rematch? We would love a replay. There would be no controversy this time, I can assure you. By the way, I am praying that hillary jumps in to “save the democratic party.” That would be a dream election for me. You would see 100% Republican voting rates. It would galvanize the party as never before.
Oh, by the way, good luck in 2004.
Sure, former Euro colonial powers & the US have nothing to do with current situations in Africa. yep.
Just as they have nothing to do with blacks being exported to Brazil, UK, the US, etc…
I think many European ctrys DO feel some obligation as evidenced by the fact that there are quite a few currently involved in the civil wars happening in West Africa.
Goosesteppers talk all high & mighty about the US liberating Iraq (new mantra: “its not about the WMDs”), but then say we’ve got nothing to do with Africa.
Well, no big surprise because the US Gvmt has NEVER been much interested in really promoting peace or helping to do the same “over there” - no matter Democrat or Republican admin.
Have a look A Peoples History of the US, or other such detailed historical works.
Theres alot more truth found scribbled on a mensroom stall than found on CNN & Foxnews.
Hmm. Maybe because Canada, Germany and France already have their entire militaries deployed in Afghanistan and The Balkans?
“The election was stolen from gore.”
Hmm… Well, Gore did win by over 1/2 million votes (not counting all the black voters Bush had taken off the voters list). I guess that doesn’t count in a democracy.
Iraq is not a free country, it’s a country that came out of a dictatorship which once again I have to remind you that your country, the US, helped to consolidate and supported for many years, and is now a occupied nation against it’s people wills by a empirialistic force that is trying to impose a political system that is not a desitre of the locals and will only serve to ensure that the only thing that interests the US will indeed go your way so you people can all keep driving your 4000 cc pickup trucks and continue producing a quarter of the pollutent gas emissions of the whole planet. The truth is hard to swallow I know, so do the only thing you can and keep the insults coming.
Africa is, in my opinion a stain in most of European countries foreign policies. In our arrogance we took a way of life to populations that clearly were not ready for it, took their lands and their freedom with slavery, exploited their natural resources and did a serie of wrong turns even when we were trying to help. You don’t help a starving population by training to wait for food falling off an airplane, you teach them how to exploit the land and support themselves again. Can you honestly say that Europe doesn’t have a responsability on the sad state of affairs in South Africa? After decades of Apartheid? I know this a very simplistic way of putting things and things can not be made right all of sudden but we are in debt. IF something can be done at this point it’s highly debatable, but still…
"Hmm… Well, Gore did win by over 1/2 million votes (not counting all the black voters Bush had taken off the voters list). I guess that doesn’t count in a democracy. "
Gore lost fair and square. The rules of the game were known going in. We do not elect our President by straight popular vote. Just about every voter knows about the electoral college, many bitch about it, but most don’t understand why it exists. Without the electoral system the candidates would only have to pay attention to the 5 most populated states to win. The rest of us would be ignored because of population dynamics. Not a good way to run a country.
Africa had wars and famine before whitey got there. The difference is now they have better weapons. I honestly don’t care if we go there or not. It’s a band aid solution to cancer anyway. We’ll do our feel good job and leave and thing will go straight back to hell like they did in Somolia and Rawanda.
Part of growing up is realizing that you can’t fix everything. The people that have the best chance to fix Africa are the ones that live there not the ones that live here.
“Theres alot more truth found scribbled on a mensroom stall than found on CNN & Foxnews.” – Kuri
Aaahhh. That answers so many questions about where Kuri is coming from. Thanks!
Redman - You tellin’ us you don’t shit? Or that your shit doesn’t stink?
BTW, whens the new Wu Tang joint drop?
Restless said: ‘Iraq is not a free country, it’s a country that came out of a dictatorship which once again I have to remind you that your country, the US, helped to consolidate and supported for many years’
Imagine you’re one of 3 kids. You’re kid A and you treat your dog well. Kid B has a problem and occasionally beats his dog up for no reason. Kid C on the other hand not only beats his own dog he wants to beat the dogs of all other kids, which might include you. But you live far away from him. Kid B on the other hand llives a breath away from kid C and he could do something. So, you give him a couple rocks and teach him how to hurl them so he can strike kid C and deter him from hurting other dogs.
Lo and behold kid B takes the rest of your rocks and the skills you gave him and starts beating the crap out of his dog beyond all rational belief. He’s killed several dogs because of his insanity and keeps getting new dogs so he can keep hurling your rocks the way you taught him to.
Now, all you did was provide him with the tools to deter kid C from beating every dog up. You succeeded but now kid B , in his own insanity started to beat his dog up so bad with your rocks he died. Are you responsible because a man who you thought had restraint ended up using your weapons and skills to kill his own people? Are you RESPONSIBLE for his insanity? The US has helped COUNTLESS countries by giving them weapons and training. Most never became insane and started to kill their own peoppple with them. Well, Saddam was an exception and you had no way of knowing exactly how dangerous he was.
Steely Eyes
Bush was not elected by the Electoral College, he was chosen as the winner by the Supreme Court.
Yes, we all know the rules going in to the election, however there is evidence of vote-tampering and election fraud in Florida.
Neither of those things is “part of the rules”.
So yes, Bush did win, however did he win “fair and square”? No he did not.
I never said that they should fix the problems on their own but they should at least help in some way.
Of course a lot of the problems emerged after the colonial powers left and yes they did leave a lot in the way of infastructure but that still doesnt take away from the fact that they are in some way responsible.
As far as the Balkan thing is concerned I do believe that Turkey, and this is coming from a Turk, should held partly responsible just as Europe should be held partly responsible for the situation in Africa. The only problem is that if you go back far enough you can blame everyone for everything so where do you draw the line??
I thought this was an Africa thread?
Even on this forum people tend to forget pretty damn quick.
Oh, and Diesel - I think the CIA would know EXACTLY how dangerous Saddam & his Baathists were, which is WHY they trained them in the first place.
Same reason they seeked out the nastiest, most violent extremists in Al Quaida to train to fight against the RUssians.
Lumpy is spot on regarding the supreme court & voting fraud in FL.
Lastly, happy Fourth y’all!
“Bush was not elected by the Electoral College, he was chosen as the winner by the Supreme Court.”
The Supreme Court ruled on the vote count, on which the electoral votes to win hinged. The issue was the butterfly ballots, which really are quite simple to use and the rules for a valid vote were also quite plain. The Democrats were straining the system to it’s limits to make votes that would have been voided in any average election count. The hanging chad deal and the double punches because people are confused were clearly voided votes but yet there was an argument about it. I voted on those ballots for years and clearly remember the instructions on the ballot about making sure to FULLY remove the “chad” and if you need to change your vote to get a new ballot.
It’s sour grapes on the part of people that lost an admittedly close election to declare any sort of fraud. What went on in Florida was looked at from every angle by several groups and all of the media after the fact and they all agreed that there was no fraud. Similar close votes occured in several other smaller states, like New Mexico too. Bush didn’t have any relatives in those states, were those votes fruadulent as well?
There were thousands of Florida voters who incorrectly blocked from voting. The “system” thought they were felons and would not let them vote. I forget the figures but it numbers something like 5000.
The vast majority of these voters lived in districts that were predominantly black and working class (a group that tends to vote Democratic). This was reported in countries outside the US, and was only in a few US papers 6 months after the election was over, and buried in the back of the paper. The company that was hired to scrub the voter rolls was hired by Katherine Harris (an employee of Jeb Bush) and was paid millions. A class-action lawsuit was filed on behalf of the people who were not allowed to vote, I don’t know what the status of that lawsuit is.
By the way, in many states, if a ballot is unreadable or has multiple choices selected, the machine refuses the ballot. In Florida, the machine takes the bad ballot and quietly voids it.
The Supreme Court decided the results, in order to expedite the process. There was a fear that dragging things out would damage the country.
Justice Scalia should have excused himself from hearing the case, his son is connected to the case somehow, I believe he is with the law firm representing Bush at the time. There was a conflict of interest with Justice Scalia.
So yes Bush “won” but did he win “fair and square”? No, he did not.
If Mr. Anan feels that Liberia’s own government’s insurrection
needs to be assisted he ought to pressure his own security council to get the job done. And frankly I’m tired off all the shit our country takes from the world. Why does our military have to bear conisderable human and financial costs of the world’s problems and then take shit for it? Case in point is Iraq. There is no fucking question that the long term future of Iraq is much brighter without that cocksucker in power anymore. There is no dispute that he was a dictator whose human rights abuses would make most people want to vomit. And he is a clearly defined enemy which can be ousted by our military. If rebels in Liberia will engage in the worst of wars, a civl war and kill people who could well be their neighbors in peace, they will show no hesitation in trying to kill our troops. The other problem with this type of mission is that our military will have a tougher time fighting rebels that can easily upon will blend in to a civilian population. And if Mr Anan feels that a conventional army can be of benefit here, why can’t he call france or russia or china for these operations? Our military is barely able to fit its global sphere of operations and frankly is at its limits. Everywhere we go, we do good and then in a few fucking weeks its Yankee go home. Why dont we just stay at home for this one and let other nations handle this shit. we’re assholes for liberating Iraq and trying to fix it (Saddam pretty much broke the whole country), we were assholes to arm Afghanistan in the Cold War and its our fault after they used our guns to kick out the Russians they couldnt get their shit together. So if we directly intervene we’re assholes, if we teach people how to expel invaders we’re assholes, and if we do nothing we’re assholes. Given that regardless of our actions we’re assholes, the most cost effective solution for us is do nothing. I do care about 3rd world suffering but in Liberia’s case, other countires need to step up. I think the US does its best, but once we act as called upon everyone has something to say. More importantly our military stretched too thin given
lumpy, kuri, and the rest of the democratic crybabies,
I have a simple solution: gore in 2004. Oh, wait, he knows he lost and would be trounced in a rematch. If he was so wronged, why not run again to avenge these “wrongs?”
Therefore, your stance is irrelevant. Thanks for a divisive post-November 2000 extended period of sour grapes highlighted by vague charges of fraud and calls for re-vote. Keep it up, and there will be one party left. That suits me just fine.
The Supreme Court did what it was supposed to do. There was NO PROVISION FOR REVOTING OR EXTENDING THE “RECOUNT PERIOD” ON THE BOOKS BEFORE THE ELECTION. Therefore, they correctly interpreted the law. By the way, you democrats would rather paralyze the peaceful transfer of power that is the hallmark of our government than have to face the truth. The truth is: People were sick to death of the clinton scandals and poor government in general. Honesty and character count. How many scandals, either personal or public has the Bush administration put us through in nearly three years of government?
By the way, the reward for saddam and his cronies was a great idea. When we find him, you will see people coming out of the woodwork with wmd info. I’ll be accepting the dumbasses’ apologizes. Can’t wait.