[quote]Headhunter wrote:
In reading the bible, you bible-bashers DO realize that ANYTHING written by different people is (a) going to have their individual interpretation, (b) only as good as the messenger. People of this time period thought very differently than do you and I, who were educated within a math-science paradigm. Assigning ‘errors’ or ‘inconsistencies’ to biblical authors is somewhat akin to blaming Abe Lincoln for derogatory references to black people – such were not considered derogatory at the time.[/quote]
So, first they are reliable witnesses, that you and ZEB compared to modern credible witnesses in a court of law, but now you’re saying they are NOT completely reliable witnesses after all?
What would happen in a court of law if the witness accounts were not completely consistent with each other – and was taken as (a) “going to have their individual interpretation, (b) only as good as the messenger”.
A lot of juries just wouldn’t believe their stories.
YOU made the comparison, not me.
And YOU even explained why modern witnesses are given some credibility: they are educated. The fact that 2,000 year old witness accounts cannot be expected to respect such advanced scientific standards as “time” just proves they cannot be trusted. At all.
And, by the way: in many trials where men were convicted through multiple witness testimony, they were later found to be innocent through DNA evidence.
Witnesses are NOT 100% reliable as a rule, and these aren’t even credible ones to begin with.
[quote]Mordred wrote:
Which speaks to the logical issue: He could have made only ONE belief sufficient!
Which he did.
He could just as easily have made infinitely many beliefs sufficient. Again, you miss the point…not to mention that you assume the conclusions that you argue for…
Of all the possibilities…why would he choose just one, and why would an omnipotent, omniscient being choose the one that you claim he did?[/quote]
Again, why would he not?
Do you think that the creator of the universe has to be politically correct in order to earn your respect?
God stands outside of time. Try wrapping your mind around that one. God does not care what is socially acceptable to man in 2006.
You talk about logic, forgive me for saying this, but you are not being very logical.
What makes you think that he has not? Because YOU reject him?
I think that those who want to understand God must draw closer to God as the Bible says.
People who want God to draw closer to them have it backwards.
And furthermore the Bible is rife with a certain word that is most important to the almighty: FAITH!
Have you read the Bible?
Do you fully understand what God wants of you?
Have you tried in earnest to read (and study) the scriptures for a period of time?
[quote]
I’m not making any god in my image.[/quote]
When you make certain claims as you have, it looks like you are not ready to embrace God on his terms. It seems like you want God to be something that you can fit into your own narrow definition.
I honestly think that is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to coming to the Lord.
It’s fine to examine. But don’t think that you will come to spcific answers that your mind will be able to accept. Especially if you have not at least read and fully understand the Christian Bible.
For example you stated in an earlier post:
“Certainly a wise and just God could think of something better to save the souls of his creations from eternal damnation in the system of rules that he created with total foreknowledge of the outcome…”
If you had read the Old Testament it is very clear why God sent his one and only son as a sacrifice for our sins.
And if you read the New Testament you would understand that without the belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as our savior (for those sins) we will NOT reach the father in heaven.
I am not at all stating that it is an easy concept to fully embrace. But I do know that YOU need to draw closer to God through his word in order to understand it.
That millions of people do understand and accept this should at least give you an indication that it is possible to grasp it.
And while you may be much much brighter than the average Christian, please don’t let that inteligence keep you from reading about God. And don’t let your desire to be clever overtake your desire to know what Gods plan for you life is.
Again, you create a God that is NOT spoken of in the Christian Bible. You do so by this phrase:
“He should have the ability to help me understand.”
What else do you think God SHOULD do for you in order for you to believe? And what makes you think that the 2.1 billion Christians world wide have not come to at least some understanding of what you speak about?
It seems you want God to come to you. It is the other way around my friend.
If you “want” God in your life, you have to seek him out. He does not have to seek you out.
Since when does the created make the creator come to him?
(Something that might pertain here: Please read JOB 38. I think you will enjoy it.)
Go to the Bible and read without any preconceived notions of what others think or say.
What would happen in a court of law if the witness accounts were not completely consistent with each other – and was taken as (a) “going to have their individual interpretation, (b) only as good as the messenger”.[/quote]
They are completly consistent as I explained to doogie.
One author may speak of one thing (that stands out to him). And another author writes of something that seems more important to him.
What would really look suspicious is if every single account was precisely the exact same thing!
Stop and think about that a moment please.
Many times wily criminals in attempting to pull the wool over a prosecutors eyes tell virtually the exact same story.
This always arouses suspicion in a good prosecutors mind. Any man who considers himself well versed in logic knows to be leery of any multiple account recollections which match up perfectly in every finite detail
But this really isn’t about who is right or wrong. It’s about a tiny group of people who for some reason are fixated against something that they don’t understand and (most) have never taken the time to understand.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
It’s about a tiny group of people who for some reason are fixated against something that they don’t understand and (most) have never taken the time to understand.[/quote]
You mean, the 4 BILLION people that do not believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior? Plus the 1 BILLION that do, but do not take almost anything on the Bible as being the Truth, but actually rely on some other dogma set by a completely different group of people?
[quote]hspder wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It’s about a tiny group of people who for some reason are fixated against something that they don’t understand and (most) have never taken the time to understand.
You mean, the 4 BILLION people that do not believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior? Plus the 1 BILLION that do, but do not take almost anything on the Bible as being the Truth, but actually rely on some other dogma set by a completely different group of people?
Yeah, tiny groups.
And I am the elitist. Riiiiight.
[/quote]
No, actually I’m talkig about only a tiny fraction of the 1 billion who do not believe in a God, or are not sure either way.
This tiny fraction of people must ridicule those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as our savior. In doing so it somehow strengthens their own strongly held belief that there is no God.
[quote]Mordred wrote:
So, YOU, Mordred, are God’s counsellor?
I’m a human being with a mind that I happen to like to use…I’m sorry if I expect an omnipotent, omniscient being to live up to, if not exceed the standards that I would hold an adult human to. [/quote]
I understand. I enjoy using my mind as well. However, God’s eternal verities cannot be apprehended with simple “human logic” and human understanding. If we could totally contain God in our own minds, then He, by that very fact, would cease to be God, since we can contain Him. With God, it is the other way around. We have but a small understanding about God and His ways. We have everything that He, through His Word, wants us to have, but we cannot (on this side of eternity) know it all.[quote]
The problem is NOT WITH GOD, but with you and others who want a God of their own imagination. .
Isa. 55:8-9, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.”
It’s amazing how you seem to know what I “want” from the extremely limited interaction that we have had. The depth of your psychological insight is absolutely miraculous. Are you incapable of having a conversation without playing armchair shrink? It would be less amusing to me if you were anywhere near correct in your analysis.[/quote]
Wait a minute. Isn’t you (and others) who are the ones writing things like, “I like to use my brain, and I EXPECT GOD TO LIVE UP TO SUCH AND SUCH STANDARDS, ETC?” I am not writing these things, but YOU are. You want a God of your own choosing – one that acts the way YOU would like him, or YOU would understand Him.
That is not the God of the Bible! The One True God acts on His own without and not depending upon human logic. I am not playing “shrink,” as you so ineptly put it, but simply going by what YOU and others write on this thread."[quote]
Notice that you didn’t actually address my point. You just chose to remind me that God is so inscrutable that it is useless to try to actually make sense of anything related to him, and we should merely believe all these ludicrous things without question.
Why shouldn’t I question God? Not from a place of insolence, but in a true search for understanding. Hey…God…please help me to understand this. Why is this wrong? And why is an omnipotent being seemingly incapable of explaining himself in a way that humans can grasp?[/quote]
Mordred, I apologize if I am getting the wrong impression. I am sincerly sorry for that.
There is nothing wrong with really and truly searching and asking God to show you. That is how it is supposed to be. However, God’s word does say that we need to have faith, because “without faith it is impossible to please Him.” I am not saying that we just have a “blind faith,” with no reason at all, however, if we try to use reason and forget about faith, we cannot come to God. Does that make any sense?
To do a search the way you are describing it, I would ask God, in prayer, to show you His truth, and combine that with reading the Bible – Gospel of John is always a good place to start – and let Him speak to your heart.
Jesus said that we should, “Ask, seek, and knock…”
This is a very productive argument…I ask you why…your answer is why not? If you don’t have a sufficient answer you can always say that you don’t know and we can proceed from there.
Where in anything that I have written so far did you get this? I could care less about political correctness.
I’ve done quite a bit of thinking in regards to time, both as it relates to possible gods in this manner and in a purely physical sense dealing with cosmology and general relativity. A total lack of time is not an easy concept to grasp, which is why the best way to deal with it is usually as mathematical abstraction. I fail to see how this is all that relevant though.
As above, where did I say anything about socially acceptable? Where did I even imply anything of the sort? Stop muddying the waters with other arguments and just plain making up motives and premises and ascribing them to me. Deal with my argument.
Then please demonstrate exactly where my logic is flawed. I haven’t seen an attempt so far. All I have seen is you answering questions with questions and telling me about things that I’ve never talked about, much less implied were necessary.
Uhhhh…step back a second. Remember what we were talking about here? It wasn’t understanding the system of rules that God supposedly created, or what he wants me to do to “save my soul”. It was the why behind it all…the reply which was given is that it is impossible to understand God’s reasoning. We are too limited by our human understanding and he is too great for our minds to comprehend. I contend that this just isn’t so. God, being omnipotent, could easily create a means for us to understand why he does things if he wanted to. If he can’t, then he isn’t omnipotent. If he can, but does not…I again am lead to ask the pesky question…why?
Yes.
I believe so.
Yes.
[quote]When you make certain claims as you have, it looks like you are not ready to embrace God on his terms. It seems like you want God to be something that you can fit into your own narrow definition.
I honestly think that is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to coming to the Lord.[/quote]
What claims? Be specific. My narrow definition? I’ve considered the existance of gods that fit into an extremely wide range of defining characteristics. We are currently arguing in regards to the Christian god. I am thus using defining elements of the Christian god in my argument. Do you not contend that God is omnipotent and omniscient? I did throw in the words just and wise at one point, though not directly ascribing them to the Christian god. Is God unjust and unwise?
I’m willing to consider all possible definitions for a god that might exist. Are you?
Again, I believe you have lost focus concerning what we were talking about. A second ago it was impossible for me to understand God’s reasoning, and God’s actions (and this was supported with a biblical quote, as all things seem to be). Now you are telling me that I need to read the Christian Bible to understand.
[quote]For example you stated in an earlier post:
“Certainly a wise and just God could think of something better to save the souls of his creations from eternal damnation in the system of rules that he created with total foreknowledge of the outcome…”
If you had read the Old Testament it is very clear why God sent his one and only son as a sacrifice for our sins.[/quote]
Really? Then why didn’t you just tell me the reason he chose to do this as opposed to exercising one of his infinitely many other options? This could have been ended after your first post. Why didn’t you just tell me right there for that matter?
Here again you drag me into something that I wasn’t a part of and didn’t touch on. Did I ever contend that it doesn’t say this? Of course, just because it is written somewhere doesn’t mean I have to believe it…but this is off the main argument. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being choose to make this so? It doesn’t make sense to me at all. I have more trouble believing things that are nonsensical. It kind of raises a red flag.
[quote]I am not at all stating that it is an easy concept to fully embrace. But I do know that YOU need to draw closer to God through his word in order to understand it.
That millions of people do understand and accept this should at least give you an indication that it is possible to grasp it.[/quote]
Again, I think you have strayed from the actual focus of what we were discussing. I understand the system. I contend that such a system coming from an omnipotent, omniscient being does not make sense.
Zeb, you yourself said, “What would be the point of Jesus Christ coming to earth if someone can be saved in so many other ways? It would have been illogical for God to send such a sacrifice if any other belief would do as well!”
My response to which is, any other belief would do just as well…God, being omnipotent, could easily make it so. That you couldn’t make this last step along this logical progression was the reason for my initial post.
You know, you aren’t nearly as bad as steveo5801 in this regard here…but you guys might want to consider not reflexively diving into your big book of assumptions about anyone that argues against you and just start dealing with the actual words on the page.
I only value cleverness when I’m being comedic. I don’t think I’ve gotten any laughs so far in this thread…
[quote]Again, you create a God that is NOT spoken of in the Christian Bible. You do so by this phrase:
“He should have the ability to help me understand.”
What else do you think God SHOULD do for you in order for you to believe? And what makes you think that the 2.1 billion Christians world wide have not come to at least some understanding of what you speak about?[/quote]
I haven’t created any gods here…I’m running from the Christian playbook. Read that sentence again. I have no idea why you chose to focus on the word should. He should have the ability to help me understand. Does God not have this ability? That sentence is quite different from he should help me understand…if I had said that you might have a point. I didn’t.
If it is truly impossible for me to understand, as you and steveo5801 have contended, then God must not be omnipotent. If he is omnipotent, then it is possible for me to understand.
[quote]It seems you want God to come to you. It is the other way around my friend.
If you “want” God in your life, you have to seek him out. He does not have to seek you out.[/quote]
And you know that I have not sought because?
Well…if I created a life, I might at least drop in and say hello once…common courtesy and all
This is a very productive argument…I ask you why…your answer is why not? If you don’t have a sufficient answer you can always say that you don’t know and we can proceed from there.[/quote]
I know that it’s Gods will.
[quote]God stands outside of time. Try wrapping your mind around that one. God does not care what is socially acceptable to man in 2006.
I’ve done quite a bit of thinking in regards to time, both as it relates to possible gods in this manner and in a purely physical sense dealing with cosmology and general relativity. A total lack of time is not an easy concept to grasp, which is why the best way to deal with it is usually as mathematical abstraction. I fail to see how this is all that relevant though.[/quote]
My point was that God is much larger than you may think. He is not as interested in what might be considered socially acceptable in our time as some may want him to be.
I say this because you (and I) are only able to think in this time frame and our thought process has indeed been tainted by this time frame. That is the reason that I have mentioned “socially acceptable” or “politically correct.”
What if he doesn’t want to?
What if he wants to only give us so much?
What if faith is more important?
You said “If he can’t then he isn’t omnipotent.”
Big jump there man…
There’s no other reason that God has not brought himself down to your level and satisfied your every whim regarding answers?
What about this:
If God is omnipotent then he is able to create any type of universe and people that he wants. That includes people like you and I.
As the Bible says in Romans 9:20:
"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?”
[quote]When you make certain claims as you have, it looks like you are not ready to embrace God on his terms. It seems like you want God to be something that you can fit into your own narrow definition.
I honestly think that is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to coming to the Lord.
What claims? Be specific.[/quote]
These for starters:
“Certainly a wise and just God could think of something better to save the souls of his creations from eternal damnation in the system of rules that he created with total foreknowledge of the outcome…”
" I contend that this just isn’t so. God, being omnipotent, could easily create a means for us to understand why he does things if he wanted to. If he can’t, then he isn’t omnipotent."
That last sentence…well…it’s quite a stretch in logic.
If he is omnipotent then he can indeed does not have to allow you to understand. Not that he is unable…rather unwilling.
And there is a reason for that.
Yes, you have.
I can tell that you are a very bright individual. I just hope that you don’t let your intellect keep you from eternal salvation.
God is that and more.
Yes, actually before I became a Christian I studied some Buddhism. And prior to that I believed in reincarnation. At one point in my life I thought there was a God but was not quite sure. I was only sure that he was not Catholic (bad exerience there…ha).
So…I have sort of been around the block spiritually. That is not to say that someone can’t bring something to the table that I have not heard before.
When I seriously started studying the Chrisitan Bible I became aware of many things. I won’t bore you with them now. Needless to say it led me to becoming a Christian.
But that is not to say that one must take the path that I did. If you have the right answer it matters not if you get it at the age of 35, 85 or 10!
I suppose that is where faith comes in…for you.
I’m not sure how much you actually understand of the world around you.
Can you explain nuclear fusion?
I can’t.
Ever been to the library of Congress?
The library presently contains over 70 million items (books, magazines, journals, etc.). What percentage of the collective knowledge recorded in the volumes in this library would you say are within your own pool of knowledge and experience?
Maybe a fraction of one percent?
Do you think it is logically possible that God may exist in the 99.9 percent that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?
As for God, if you truly understood all that there was to him you would be like God. And that won’t be happening.
My own personal opinion is that we would not be able to understand. I don’t think we were created to be able to fully understand God.
Again, as the Bible states “no one can understand the mind of God.”
I know you want to understand fully. But it won’t be happening in this lifetime for any of us.
You either exercise faith based upon what God has shown you, (and he can show you much more) or you don’t.
Because God is supposed to explain these things to you?
I see where you are coming from. You want a different system. One that makes sense to you, on your terms. Terms that YOU consider logical.
Some want God to be like one of their
Professors. A knowledgable individual who exlains the facts in a manner that you can grasp fully and appreciate.
X=Y because…
Again…God won’t be doing that for
Any of us. That’s where faith comes in.
You can’t bring God down to your level. You take God as he is or you don’t.
Many don’t.
As Jesus Christ states in Matthew 7: 13-14:
“[i]Enter through the nearrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”[i]
So…you are one who has not found it yet…But you may…you just may.
[quote]Zeb, you yourself said, “What would be the point of Jesus Christ coming to earth if someone can be saved in so many other ways? It would have been illogical for God to send such a sacrifice if any other belief would do as well!”
My response to which is, any other belief would do just as well…God, being omnipotent, could easily make it so. That you couldn’t make this last step along this logical progression was the reason for my initial post.[/quote]
Oh I’m with you 100%!
God could have made 10,000 or more ways to get to heaven.
But the fact remains that he made only one way.
One way to the father and that is through the son Jesus Christ!
That you don’t like or understand why it is this way is not as important as you might think.
Many times we don’t understand the reason why something is as it is. It simply makes no sense to us. And then at a later date it is revealed and we sit back and say “now why couldn’t I have figured that out?”
I hope you don’t wait until it’s too late to say such a thing regarding God.
Maybe not belly laughs…But you are clever never the less. And I appreciate that.
It’s better to be clever in these Internet debates. Too many are mean and nasty because they are anonymous and feel invincible. In reality those folks are just message board bullies. And I think they have some deep rooted problems.
Okay enough about me…
(That was a joke
[quote]Again, you create a God that is NOT spoken of in the Christian Bible. You do so by this phrase:
“He should have the ability to help me understand.”
What else do you think God SHOULD do for you in order for you to believe? And what makes you think that the 2.1 billion Christians world wide have not come to at least some understanding of what you speak about?
I haven’t created any gods here… [/quote]
Well, I think you have.
First off you want a God who will do this:
“Certainly a wise and just God could think of something better to save the souls of his creations from eternal damnation in the system of rules that he created with total foreknowledge of the outcome…”
In that statement you are implying
that God is not wise or just because he created a system that you don’t fully understand.
" I contend that this just isn’t so. God, being omnipotent, could easily create a means for us to understand why he does things if he wanted to. If he can’t, then he isn’t omnipotent."
Then you box yourself into a very finite corner with the above statement.
You are claiming that since God did not create the means for you to understand why he does what he does then he is not omnipotent!
I wonder…do you want everyone to report to you, or just God?
You question the Christian “play book.”
And that’s actually easy to do. It’s easy to question things we don’t understand fully. I do it all the time with various things in my life.
It’s much harder to take what he has given you and to have faith.
I understand…it’s not easy.
Hey that’s a good one I like that.
But…it won’t get you into heaven.
But, it’s none the less very clever.
[quote]It seems you want God to come to you. It is the other way around my friend.
If you “want” God in your life, you have to seek him out. He does not have to seek you out.
And you know that I have not sought because?[/quote]
If you have sought him out…keep seeking! Be persistent…seek God diligently and faithfully and he will reveal himself to you in some way.
But you must seek him out with a repentant heart.
That’s not easy for any of us to do. People are proud. And the more that we have in terms of material things, power etc., and the smarter that we are the more difficult it is to admit that we are sinners in need of forgiveness.
Even the best of us fall short.
[quote]Since when does the created make the creator come to him?
Well…if I created a life, I might at least drop in and say hello once…common courtesy and all [/quote]
I see you are back to putting God in your little box of what he SHOULD and SHOULD NOT do.
By the way, the Old Testament talks about how God used to communicate with people first hand!
Since Jesus Christs great sacrifice we now live in the age of faith.
There has been a good deal of fine and intelligent discussion on this thread lately.
It is always a good thing for people to think about what the Bible all means – especially as it relates to our individual eternal destinies.
I am off to the gym now – yes, believe it or not, I do seriouly work out 4 times per week so that I can keep my body in as good a shape possible given that I am closing in on the “big five-O.” However, I know that if I were not readiing God’s Word every day, as I do, I might be in great physical shape, but my spiritual “body” would be very sick indeed.
What life boils down to is this – ARE WE PREPARED TO DIE? Oh, I don’t mean are we afraid of death – everyone is to some or more of a degree. What I mean is ARE WE PREPARED TO MEET GOD?
We were created by the Creator and we will return to our Maker. Are we truly prepared to meet Him?
The question could be asked in another way: ARE WE BORN-AGAIN? ARE WE SAVED?
Try as we might, our bodies will eventually break down and die. Our spirit and soul, however, will live for eternity. There is only two choices: Heaven or Hell.
Dear people on this website – there have been threads popping up to disparage Christianity, Christians, and the Bible. If you find yourself amused by these or in agreement with them, you are far from God and are on the road to destruction. Many, many people in human history have tried to destroy the Bible and believers. They have ALL FAILED and have consigned themselves to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Voltaire, for example, railed against Biblical Christianity and after he died, I have been told, his home was turned into a Bible Society!
Try as you might – YOU CANNOT STOP THE WORD OF GOD FROM GOING FORTH, AND YOU CANNOT STOP CHRISTIANS FROM APPEALING TO OTHERS TO FLEE FROM UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND ASK JESUS TO FORGIVE YOU OF YOUR SINS.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
There has been a good deal of fine and intelligent discussion on this thread lately.
It is always a good thing for people to think about what the Bible all means – especially as it relates to our individual eternal destinies.
I am off to the gym now – yes, believe it or not, I do seriouly work out 4 times per week so that I can keep my body in as good a shape possible given that I am closing in on the “big five-O.” However, I know that if I were not readiing God’s Word every day, as I do, I might be in great physical shape, but my spiritual “body” would be very sick indeed.
What life boils down to is this – ARE WE PREPARED TO DIE? Oh, I don’t mean are we afraid of death – everyone is to some or more of a degree. What I mean is ARE WE PREPARED TO MEET GOD?
We were created by the Creator and we will return to our Maker. Are we truly prepared to meet Him?
The question could be asked in another way: ARE WE BORN-AGAIN? ARE WE SAVED?
Try as we might, our bodies will eventually break down and die. Our spirit and soul, however, will live for eternity. There is only two choices: Heaven or Hell.
Dear people on this website – there have been threads popping up to disparage Christianity, Christians, and the Bible. If you find yourself amused by these or in agreement with them, you are far from God and are on the road to destruction. Many, many people in human history have tried to destroy the Bible and believers. They have ALL FAILED and have consigned themselves to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Voltaire, for example, railed against Biblical Christianity and after he died, I have been told, his home was turned into a Bible Society!
Try as you might – YOU CANNOT STOP THE WORD OF GOD FROM GOING FORTH, AND YOU CANNOT STOP CHRISTIANS FROM APPEALING TO OTHERS TO FLEE FROM UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND ASK JESUS TO FORGIVE YOU OF YOUR SINS.
Heaven and Hell…the ball is in your court![/quote]
Please post answers or discussions questions to what I am asking above:
[quote]steveo5801 wrote: ARE YOU PREPARED TO MEET GOD?
[/quote]
Yes. I am bringing the beer.
Seriously though, steveo…
I’m reading your posts extolling how it is a good thing to reaffirm your illusions, and maybe there’s some good things to come from that, but wouldn’t it be better to just accept the world as it is – bad and good alike?
I know you’ve convinced yourself that there is “eternity” at stake here. Just please be careful that this road doesn’t lead you into hurting those who truly do not deserve it. You are vulnerable to manipulation right now.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote: ARE YOU PREPARED TO MEET GOD?
Yes. I am bringing the beer.
Seriously though, steveo…
I’m reading your posts extolling how it is a good thing to reaffirm your illusions, and maybe there’s some good things to come from that, but wouldn’t it be better to just accept the world as it is – bad and good alike?
I know you’ve convinced yourself that there is “eternity” at stake here. Just please be careful that this road doesn’t lead you into hurting those who truly do not deserve it. You are vulnerable to manipulation right now. [/quote]
WHAT are you talking about? YOU, my friend, are the one that seems manipulated right now. You have been manipulated by the world system into thinking that this is all there is!
Who told you that? How are you so sure? What authority tells you this?
The Bible – The Word of the Living God – has been around for thousands upon thousands of years. It has been complete for around 2,000 years. The majority of western peoples used to accept this as God’s Word, even though not all were born-again believers.
It is only a very recent phenomenon of modern, affluent, life that people reject God’s Word totally and reject concepts like eternity, Heaven, Hell, etc.
You have every right to whatever you believe. You also have every right to be very wrong.
One of us is correct. If I am wrong about this – I live a good life and I am blessed by what I believe. Then I die.
However, if you are wrong, you live your life your own way, then you die and face a Holy God that will say “Depart from me, ye who work inquity into everlasting fire. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
WHAT are you talking about? YOU, my friend, are the one that seems manipulated right now. You have been manipulated by the world system into thinking that this is all there is!
Who told you that? How are you so sure? What authority tells you this?[/quote]
That’s just the thing that seems to be escaping you so far, steveo. There is no authority that has been trying to cram some kind of metaphysical crap down my throat. I figured this out all by myself!
I have my big boy pants on and everything.
[quote]The Bible – The Word of the Living God – has been around for thousands upon thousands of years. It has been complete for around 2,000 years. The majority of western peoples used to accept this as God’s Word, even though not all were born-again believers.
It is only a very recent phenomenon of modern, affluent, life that people reject God’s Word totally and reject concepts like eternity, Heaven, Hell, etc.
You have every right to whatever you believe. You also have every right to be very wrong.
One of us is correct. If I am wrong about this – I live a good life and I am blessed by what I believe. Then I die.
However, if you are wrong, you live your life your own way, then you die and face a Holy God that will say “Depart from me, ye who work inquity into everlasting fire. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Are you sure you want to chance it?
[/quote]
I am 100% percent sure. In fact, I would bet that I am more sure of my position than you are of yours. Reason: the call to maintain and affirm the teachings of the bible (the world can wear on your faith, can’t it?) as a necessary and good thing. “Keeping your soul in shape”, as it were.
The only thing I need to do to maintain my belief system is maintain my rationality… just live my life. No pretending or brainwashing is required.
PS For millenia, humans thought the earth was flat. Turns out they were wrong. Just because something is ancient doesn’t give it the weight of truth. In fact, we should be wary of buying into something that dates from before the dark ages, don’t you think? If we used your mindset here, I would still be using leeches to treat my patients.
PS For millenia, humans thought the earth was flat. Turns out they were wrong. Just because something is ancient doesn’t give it the weight of truth. In fact, we should be wary of buying into something that dates from before the dark ages, don’t you think? If we used your mindset here, I would still be using leeches to treat my patients.
Just something to think about. :)[/quote]
Though, to be fair, leeches have made somewhat of a comeback…
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
WHAT are you talking about? YOU, my friend, are the one that seems manipulated right now. You have been manipulated by the world system into thinking that this is all there is!
Who told you that? How are you so sure? What authority tells you this?
That’s just the thing that seems to be escaping you so far, steveo. There is no authority that has been trying to cram some kind of metaphysical crap down my throat. I figured this out all by myself![/quote]
[b]
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9
Spritual verities cannot be apprehended by a worldly mind (see also 1 Corinthians 2:1-16)[/b][quote]
I have my big boy pants on and everything.[/quote]
[b]
“Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” Proverbs 16:18 [/b][quote]
The Bible – The Word of the Living God – has been around for thousands upon thousands of years. It has been complete for around 2,000 years. The majority of western peoples used to accept this as God’s Word, even though not all were born-again believers.
It is only a very recent phenomenon of modern, affluent, life that people reject God’s Word totally and reject concepts like eternity, Heaven, Hell, etc.
You have every right to whatever you believe. You also have every right to be very wrong.
One of us is correct. If I am wrong about this – I live a good life and I am blessed by what I believe. Then I die.
However, if you are wrong, you live your life your own way, then you die and face a Holy God that will say “Depart from me, ye who work inquity into everlasting fire. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Are you sure you want to chance it?
I am 100% percent sure. In fact, I would bet that I am more sure of my position than you are of yours. Reason: the call to maintain and affirm the teachings of the bible (the world can wear on your faith, can’t it?) as a necessary and good thing. “Keeping your soul in shape”, as it were. [/quote] [b]
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1
My faith is like a rock – it stands upon the Son of the Living God! He died once for all and when I was saved I was saved once for all (see John 10:25-30)
No wear and tear at all! I just abide in Him…in perfect peace (shalom shalom in Hebrew). [/b][quote]
The only thing I need to do to maintain my belief system is maintain my rationality… just live my life. No pretending or brainwashing is required.[/quote]
Already answered – God’s Truths cannot be apprehended simply by our brain power. Otherwise, we be able to contain an infinite God within ourselves and then He could not be God.
Again, you can worship your belief system – but that will be as vapor on the Day of Judgement for you.[quote]
PS For millenia, humans thought the earth was flat. Turns out they were wrong. Just because something is ancient doesn’t give it the weight of truth. In fact, we should be wary of buying into something that dates from before the dark ages, don’t you think? If we used your mindset here, I would still be using leeches to treat my patients.[/quote]
[b]
I just love it when you MAKE MY POINT! Humans may have thought the Earth was flat, but God knew that it was round all along. Behold:
“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.” Isaiah 40:22
The fact that people believe in something – “the Earth is flat” – doesn’t alter the fact that God’s Word is Truth.
Now imagine when people were teaching that the Earth was flat, and a believer in Christ would show that person a verse like I just showed you. Imagine what that person would have said:
“Oh, you can believe in your fantansies, but I believe in the enlightened position. I want to think with my brain, you are just a dumb believer who swallows all that God says, etc. etc. etc.”
Get the point? God’s truths about sin, salvation, Jesus Christ, etc. cannot be altered by human “rational” thinking.
What I was pointing out when I spoke about the Bible surviving the millenia was this: No matter what erroneous beliefs people have held to over the ages – God’s Word stands firm!
“For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” Psalm 119:89
“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” Isaiah 40:8
[/b]
You, my friend, can believe all that you wish. You have the right to be wrong about your sin and your ultimate eternal destiny if you persist in your recalcitrance.
The Bible says that you are on the broad road to destruction. (Matthew 7:13-14). You are on your way to a Christless eternity in flames of fire.
You don’t have to end up there. However, you do need to humble yourself before God and believe the good news that Christ died for your sins and ask him – actively want it --to be your personal savior from sin.[quote]
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
However, you do need to humble yourself before God and believe the good news that Christ died for your sins and ask him – actively want it --to be your personal savior from sin.
[/quote]
LOL I love how you don’t give up, man.
Hey, I’m here to tell YOU that you don’t have to be afraid of hell anymore because there’s no such thing!
You’re free, buddy! No more fear! Now get out there and live your life the very best that you can… go get 'em!
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
However, you do need to humble yourself before God and believe the good news that Christ died for your sins and ask him – actively want it --to be your personal savior from sin.
LOL I love how you don’t give up, man.
Hey, I’m here to tell YOU that you don’t have to be afraid of hell anymore because there’s no such thing!
You’re free, buddy! No more fear! Now get out there and live your life the very best that you can… go get 'em![/quote]
I am living my life – and it is a wonderful life knowing that I am bound for the Promised Land and that I can serve my God right here and right now on Earth!
What a thought! Serving the living God!
BTW – Hell is ALL TOO REAL, and your sticking your head in the sand doesn’t make it so.
Humble yourself lothario – bow before Him now. You will eventually bow before Him, but after death it will be all too late!
Read the Gospel of John and ask God to show you if these things are so or not.
Take care!
P.S. I am free – only because of and through Jesus!
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I am living my life – and it is a wonderful life knowing that I am bound for the Promised Land and that I can serve my God right here and right now on Earth!
What a thought! Serving the living God!
BTW – Hell is ALL TOO REAL, and your sticking your head in the sand doesn’t make it so. [/quote]
I don’t care what vroom thinks. You totally kick ass.
I challenge anyone on T-Nation, even TC or Shugs, to prove themselves more fun / completely batshit crazy than steveo. People try to heckle you as being ZEB’s alter ego, but ZEB doesn’t have shit on you. He wishes you were his alter ego.
… And this is why you rock harder than Metallica on crack. It’s all in the sales pitch.
I will bet you $100 that when I die, not only will some supernatural ghost of me NOT be bowing down to anybody, I will not see, hear, taste, smell, or feel a damn thing.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I am living my life – and it is a wonderful life knowing that I am bound for the Promised Land and that I can serve my God right here and right now on Earth!
What a thought! Serving the living God!
BTW – Hell is ALL TOO REAL, and your sticking your head in the sand doesn’t make it so.
I don’t care what vroom thinks. You totally kick ass.
I challenge anyone on T-Nation, even TC or Shugs, to prove themselves more fun / completely batshit crazy than steveo. People try to heckle you as being ZEB’s alter ego, but ZEB doesn’t have shit on you. He wishes you were his alter ego.
Humble yourself lothario – bow before Him now. You will eventually bow before Him, but after death it will be all too late!
… And this is why you rock harder than Metallica on crack. It’s all in the sales pitch.
I will bet you $100 that when I die, not only will some supernatural ghost of me NOT be bowing down to anybody, I will not see, hear, taste, smell, or feel a damn thing.
Actually, make that $200.[/quote]
"And it came to pass, that the beggard died, and was carried by the angels into Abrham’s bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeing Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
These are the words of Jesus Himself. Hell is real and we are alive and conscious of the fire and flames. The Bible says “torments” – he is being tormented for ever because of the things he did or did not believe and do while on Earth.
You might WISH it were not so, and you may be able to delude yourself that it is not so, but alas – you wil find out. You need not, however, if you just accept God’s free gift of salvation. Why else would we need salvation?
