Poll on North Korea

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]hspder wrote:

Life is not a Playstation game or some retarded Action flick. It’s not like you can just press a button and BAM! it’s magically gone.

The stuff in our arsenal that would be able to “Blow the missles off the launch pad” is expensive, slow and relatively easy to trick. We’d have to use a dozen of them to guarantee a shot, which would eventually cost us billions (billions we don’t have) and give them a perfect excuse to not only attack Japan or South Korea, it would makes look stupid and careless.[/quote]

You think we can’t afford to send a dozen Tomahawks into N. Korea everytime they fuel up a missle?

I know your chant, “Appeasement!! Appeasement!! Appeasement!!”

If we want to remain leaders, we need to ignore pansy-ass Clinton backers who think “leadership” means giving N. Korea the technology they needed to develop nuclear weapons.

People like you were running around pissing themselves when we slapped a MILITARY embargo on Cuba.

22

[quote]doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Containment works. They, like all brutal Communist regimes, will fall in time. No military action will be required.

How do you think we will contain that nuclear warhead tipped missle when they finally get it to work?

Do you think KJ cares about what happens to his country after he’s dead? Have you read anything about the man?[/quote]

He’s no different than Stalin…except a lot less powerful. These are the same arguments that everyone gave for the USSR. We don’t have to go in…alarmists might say otherwise, but as I said, containment works

23

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

He’s no different than Stalin…except a lot less powerful. These are the same arguments that everyone gave for the USSR. We don’t have to go in…alarmists might say otherwise, but as I said, containment works
[/quote]

There are a lot of people in Poland and Hungary and Cambodia that could tell you about the joys of containment.

24

[quote]doogie wrote:
People like you were running around pissing themselves when we slapped a MILITARY embargo on Cuba. [/quote]

“People like you”?! You mean, rational people?

Your position is right of even this administration’s. Apparently “people like me” include just about everyone except right wing extremists…

And, by the way, this is a VERY different geo-political situation from Cuba.

25

[quote]
doogie wrote:
People like you were running around pissing themselves when we slapped a MILITARY embargo on Cuba.

hspder wrote:
“People like you”?! You mean, rational people?[/quote]

Chicken-little, Chamberlains.

This administration is barely to the right of FDR. It’s not hard to be to the right of open borders, medicare drug programs, and record budgets.

You are right, though about it being a very different geo-political situation from Cuba. In Cuba we were dealing with rational (although misguided and evil) people who did not want to see their people wiped off the planet. In N. Korea we are dealing with a psycho who doesn’t give a fat baby’s dick if his actions end the planet or not.

26

One can only imagine what had happened with a nose-borer like W in office during the cuba crises 1962…

27

[quote]doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

He’s no different than Stalin…except a lot less powerful. These are the same arguments that everyone gave for the USSR. We don’t have to go in…alarmists might say otherwise, but as I said, containment works

There are a lot of people in Poland and Hungary and Cambodia that could tell you about the joys of containment.[/quote]

Yea? There are a lot of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that can tell you the joys of a nuclear war. You tell me which one is worse.

28

Apparently Pelosi thinks NK is a threat.

Pelosi Statement on North Korean Missile Launches
Washington, D.C. ? House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi released the following statement on the missiles launched by North Korea:

"The missile launches by North Korea are provocative acts that warrant the strong condemnation of the United States and international community.

"North Korea is moving outside the circle of acceptable behavior and is threatening the region, the United States, and the world. We must use every possible tool to stop North Korea?s unacceptable, provocative actions including six party, multilateral, and bilateral diplomatic negotiations.

“North Korea must know without a doubt that their behavior will not be tolerated.”

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=1672

29

[quote]doogie wrote:

You are right, though about it being a very different geo-political situation from Cuba. In Cuba we were dealing with rational (although misguided and evil) people who did not want to see their people wiped off the planet. In N. Korea we are dealing with a psycho who doesn’t give a fat baby’s dick if his actions end the planet or not.

[/quote]

You are wrong about Kim Jong Il. His only interest is in staying in power. He will rattle his swords to get attention every now and then, but he is not going to randomly fire nuclear tipped missles at anyone. The counter-attacks would end in his loss of power and control of his government.
KJI is going to act in a way that will be advantageous to him, not in a way that will be advantageous to the country of North Korea. He isn’t going to invade South Korea, he isn’t going to launch missles at Japan, and he isn’t a credible threat. Although what is happening in North Korea is tragic, the famine is taking a terrible toll on the people of North Korea, there isn’t any cause for a military action that is going to take lives on both sides.
That isn’t appeasement. We aren’t giving concessions to the North Korean government. Now, donating the occasional shipment of rice or humanitarian goods is a good move because anything that will expose the people of North Korea to the outside world will diminish the power of the KJI regime and quicken the inevitable self-destruction of his government.

30

[quote]doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

He’s no different than Stalin…except a lot less powerful. These are the same arguments that everyone gave for the USSR. We don’t have to go in…alarmists might say otherwise, but as I said, containment works

There are a lot of people in Poland and Hungary and Cambodia that could tell you about the joys of containment.[/quote]

There are a lot of people in North Korea that would tell of the same horrors if they were allowed to speak.

Better they suffer than our boys. Life isn’t fair and I wish their was a viable way to change NK without massive loss of life but I don’t see it yet.

There has been some mention of appeasement.

When we paid them not to build nuclear weapons and they went ahead and built them anyway that was appeasement.

I recently read an op-ed in my local paper by a member of Clinton’s state department trying to blame Bush for the missle test.

It seems at the end of Clinton’s term they had negotiated a payoff so they would not develop missles.

As soon as Bush came in office he knew the NKs were full of shit so he shitcanned the treaty and payoff.

This jackoff wrote an op-ed blasting Bush for the move while forgetting the whole nuclear weapons treaty fiasco.

Has anyone else seen this drivel?

31

shakes head

Zap, you really do believe only what you WANT to believe, don’t you?

You REALLY think that if Bush hadn’t canned the plan that KJI would’ve build the missiles anyways? Because ME? I’m not so sure.

I think that what he’s doing is just to get international attention and scare countries into giving more concessions to NK. If he didn’t need it, maybe he wouldn’t have built it.

I donno, I’m no expert, but it seems to me that he BUILT the TPD 1 and 2 AFTER Bush trashed the plan, no?

32

[quote]knewsom wrote:
shakes head

Zap, you really do believe only what you WANT to believe, don’t you?

You REALLY think that if Bush hadn’t canned the plan that KJI would’ve build the missiles anyways? Because ME? I’m not so sure.

I think that what he’s doing is just to get international attention and scare countries into giving more concessions to NK. If he didn’t need it, maybe he wouldn’t have built it.

I donno, I’m no expert, but it seems to me that he BUILT the TPD 1 and 2 AFTER Bush trashed the plan, no?[/quote]

He was trying to build ICBMs before the treaty was even negotiated.

He cheated on the nuclear weapons treaty. There is no reason to believe he would not have cheated again.

Trashing the treaty and not sending him a payoff was the correct thing to do. Trusting him (again) would have been a huge mistake.

33

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Yea? There are a lot of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that can tell you the joys of a nuclear war. You tell me which one is worse.[/quote]

Exactly. War should be evaded at all costs. I would rather tolerate an irritating dictator than watch the world burn. However, there may come a point when war is the only way to stop this bastard from doing just that- and i’ll be there fighting if it comes to that.

34

[quote]hspder wrote:
doogie wrote:
Blow the missles off the launch pad.

Every time we find one fueling up, destroy it.

No discussion. Just do it over and over until they understand we aren’t going to let them test these things.

Life is not a Playstation game or some retarded Action flick. It’s not like you can just press a button and BAM! it’s magically gone.

The stuff in our arsenal that would be able to “Blow the missles off the launch pad” is expensive, slow and relatively easy to trick. We’d have to use a dozen of them to guarantee a shot, which would eventually cost us billions (billions we don’t have) and give them a perfect excuse to not only attack Japan or South Korea, it would makes look stupid and careless.

If we want to remain leaders, we have to be mature and always take the high road. ALWAYS. No exceptions. No excuses.

The “let’s blow stuff up” mentality is hardly leadership material.
[/quote]

And appeasement is? Let’s ask Neville Chamberlain and William Jefferson Clinton about that.

My solution: Tell China to get off their asses, go in and remove this stain on human history. He’s closer to them than us.

HH

35

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
hspder wrote:
doogie wrote:
Blow the missles off the launch pad.

Every time we find one fueling up, destroy it.

No discussion. Just do it over and over until they understand we aren’t going to let them test these things.

Life is not a Playstation game or some retarded Action flick. It’s not like you can just press a button and BAM! it’s magically gone.

The stuff in our arsenal that would be able to “Blow the missles off the launch pad” is expensive, slow and relatively easy to trick. We’d have to use a dozen of them to guarantee a shot, which would eventually cost us billions (billions we don’t have) and give them a perfect excuse to not only attack Japan or South Korea, it would makes look stupid and careless.

If we want to remain leaders, we have to be mature and always take the high road. ALWAYS. No exceptions. No excuses.

The “let’s blow stuff up” mentality is hardly leadership material.

And appeasement is? Let’s ask Neville Chamberlain and William Jefferson Clinton about that.

My solution: Tell China to get off their asses, go in and remove this stain on human history. He’s closer to them than us.

HH

[/quote]

It really amazes me how quick everyone is to want to go to war with them. Yea, the guy’s got a screw loose, but so does every other fucked up dictator in the world.

There is a difference between “Containment” and “appeasement”.

North Korea is not a powerful Nazi Germany on the march, they are a country full of people who eat grass trying to stay alive while their government test missiles that barely work in order to piss off the only remaining superpower. Comparing these two states, and the state of the world that they both live in, is absolutely ridiculous and irrational.

36

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…

My solution: Tell China to get off their asses, go in and remove this stain on human history. He’s closer to them than us.

HH

[/quote]

They are not going to do this.

China does not care about human rights.

China enjoys the fact that NK is a distraction to the US.

Do not look to China for help.

37

[quote]BH6 wrote:

You are wrong about Kim Jong Il. His only interest is in staying in power. He will rattle his swords to get attention every now and then, but he is not going to randomly fire nuclear tipped missles at anyone. The counter-attacks would end in his loss of power and control of his government.

KJI is going to act in a way that will be advantageous to him, not in a way that will be advantageous to the country of North Korea. He isn’t going to invade South Korea, he isn’t going to launch missles at Japan, and he isn’t a credible threat. Although what is happening in North Korea is tragic, the famine is taking a terrible toll on the people of North Korea, there isn’t any cause for a military action that is going to take lives on both sides.
[/quote]

He isn’t going to live forever. Do you want him to have access to nuclear missles on his death bed? Do you trust that he wouldn’t launch them at that point for shits and giggles?

Beyond that, do you trust that he wouldn’t sell a nuke to the Al Qaeda?

[quote]
That isn’t appeasement. We aren’t giving concessions to the North Korean government. Now, donating the occasional shipment of rice or humanitarian goods is a good move because anything that will expose the people of North Korea to the outside world will diminish the power of the KJI regime and quicken the inevitable self-destruction of his government. [/quote]

I know what appeasement is.

Clinton gave them a nuclear reactor and hundreds of millions of dollars that didn’t go to feed the masses.

A week before N. Korea launched it’s first ballistic missle, the Clinton administration said N. Korea didn’t even HAVE a ballistic missle program.

Clinton sent Jimmy Carter to get N. Korea to stop its nuclear program. We know how well that worked.

It is only a matter of time until N. Korea can hold the world hostage if we do nothing. I’m not saying we invade. I’m saying we consistantly bomb the shit out of their missle and nuclear programs, while punishing anyone who is proven to be helping them develop either.

38

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
doogie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

He’s no different than Stalin…except a lot less powerful. These are the same arguments that everyone gave for the USSR. We don’t have to go in…alarmists might say otherwise, but as I said, containment works

There are a lot of people in Poland and Hungary and Cambodia that could tell you about the joys of containment.

Yea? There are a lot of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that can tell you the joys of a nuclear war. You tell me which one is worse.[/quote]

There will someday be a lot of people in LA or Chicago who be able to tell the same stories if we don’t stop N. Korea’s program now.

39

[quote]doogie wrote:

He isn’t going to live forever. Do you want him to have access to nuclear missles on his death bed? Do you trust that he wouldn’t launch them at that point for shits and giggles?

Beyond that, do you trust that he wouldn’t sell a nuke to the Al Qaeda?

[quote]

I don’t think that KJI is going to launch any missles at his deathbed. He has two sons, the oldest is going to inherit North Korea just like he did from Kim Il Song. KJIs sons are going to be as interested in preserving their hold on North Korea as he is, so they aren’t going to let him launch anything.
South Korea has North Korea wired pretty tight as far as collecting intelligence. You have to figure that South Korea has been focusing on one enemy for the past 50 years. China also has North Korea pretty wired and they aren’t interesting in seeing nuclear explosions in the region they are interested in dominating. North Korea isn’t going to be able to make a move like selling a weapon to Al Qaeda without someone knowing about it.

I don’t agree at all with the way the Clinton administration handled North Korea, I think they allowed a marginalized leader to keep himself injected into world affairs by granting him concessions. By negotiating directly with KJI’s government, the United States grants him more legitimacy than he deserves. I think the Bush administration is on the right track by insisting that China, Japan, and S. Korea participate in any discussion. That eliminates any braggin rights KJI has that he was able to force the United States to the bargaining table.

Keep in mind also that Seoul is within reach of the long range artillery on the border with North Korea. KJI more or less holds a gun to the South Korean’s head. Any military action against his missle sites, that doesn’t also strike the artillery in the mountains north of Seoul, will likely result in some pretty devasting chemical and explosive artillery fire landing in a very dense city of several million people. That is a much more likely scenario than KJI going off his rocker and shooting missles at Hawaii, Alaska, or the west coast of the United States.
So, is it worth sacrificing most of Seoul to take out the North Korean’s rockets? I believe that South Korea would say no.

40

we should send him a goody basket.