No disagreement here. There is certainly evidence for that. Like I said that which exists in an eco-system affects that eco-system. The question for me is how much we effect it and do the provisions we are taking actually work?
If so, great. If not, the what the fuck are we doing?
I am all for clean living, but I am not going to drive shitty cars or roast in the summer and freeze in the winter. And I am a big fan of recycling.
[quote=“pat, post:258, topic:222723”]
Sure you can be anybody you want.[/quote]
Don’t get all progressive on me now, man.
I agree with your perspective on things, but whenever people talk about much information we have in relation to the age of the planet, I always wonder what kind of planet they want to live on, and to what extent we believe things like oceans, life, an atmosphere, predominately dormant volcanoes, radically different ambient chemical compositions, etc. all effect the climate vs. whatever was going on back when the planet was a barren, noxious landscape devoid of anything recognizable to our current situation.
Even if we did know what the climate was like 3 billion years ago, if we can’t understand the effect of current variables on our current climate, how can we be expected to put anything from that far back in any sort of context?
Serious question btw.
edit: I get what you’re saying to a large degree, but I’m curious in the ways in which we would be able to look at the way things are today, the way things were when dinosaurs were stomping around, and the way thins were when life was only underwater, and then create any sort of actionable context despite the wildly different variations in the things we don’t understand by today’s standards?
[quote=“Aragorn, post:260, topic:222723”]
What the hell is wrong with you?! You don’t want a super-villain volcano lair?? I’d switch to the dark side in a heart beat if I got one of those.[/quote]
I’m still waiting for sharks to evolve fricken’ laser beams attached to their heads before throwing down on a lease.
And I get what you’re saying wrt to history repeating itself, but why not start with the past 200,000 years or so that we’ve been around (6,000 for the religious or lazy) and then take it from there? Multi-million year temperature cycles sound like a blast, but if we’re not Star Trekking by then, we probably deserve whatever’s coming.
Agreed. There’s quite a lot that is involved and we need to be serious about it. However on the other hand, quite ironically a lot of the climate justice warriors’ mentality is one of, “if it’s not perfect i don’t want to do it!”.
Completely agree with you, and where you are going. My answer is–we don’t understand current variables because its fucking complex lol. Climate science is a very young discipline in science terms, and we’ve been studing the human body for north of 2000 years and stil don’t know everything about it. The scientific community has turned political activist instead of researcher.
Anyway, I feel this might be heading for a train wreck hijack so I’m not going to pursue it any more in the thread haha
The appropriate response is HYSTERIA, followed by hamstringing the hell out of our economy, and making it hella hard for anybody in the third world to ever industrialize. It’s better for them in the long run if they learn to be happy with less consumerism anyway. Hopefully we can all learn to eat fortified pasta sprinkled with pulverized insect powder as a protein source.
Then we can pass some laws to make us feel like we’re doing something. CA is now attempting to modify my behavior to make me more green. I have to pay 10 cents for a plastic or paper bag at the grocery store if I forget to bring my own bags. I’m wondering when they will decide that junk mail should be illegal. I’m kinda hoping for that one. Or that cereal should be sold in just a bag without the cardboard box around it. I kinda wonder where this is all going in terms of what might be illegal next. I probably won’t be alive to know if any of these things will have on effect on the temperature of the earth 1000 years from now.
Here’s a good link for that-
https://nationalmap.gov/small_scale/printable/fedlands.html#pa
You mentioned putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage with our military enemies. Can you imagine the push back from the Green/ Environmental lobby if America really geared up to manufacture things again? We no longer have the industrial machine it required to win WWII.
I’m from a mining/ farming/ ranching area. The uranium mines and mills shuttered in the 80s. The coal mine and power plant will soon close. Farmers and ranchers are constantly sued by environmental groups and local Indian tribes who have an unlimited budget to sue with federal funds. The public has no understanding of how BLM lands have always been vital to that industry.
There’s a lot of lip service right now about the pain of blue collar workers but putting them to work actually making things or growing our own food runs completely counter to the Dem agenda. Look at the CA farming valleys. We’d rather import produce from Mexico.
It would at least tell us about adaptation more accurately.
But even in the scope of human history, we still only have a sliver of data compared to the span of human history on Earth.
The goal is to understand adaptation and change, more so than understand the conditions themselves.
For instance, were temperature changes gradual or were there dramatic shifts followed by a period of stability of state. The latter seems more likely given what I know. The Earth has never been subtle when it comes to change.
And I share your sentiment as to what is the vision of the CCW’s? What do they think the Earth should look like? What is the goal? The Earth is ever changing, so how can you say “it’s supposed to look this way”? What if we didn’t have an industrial revolution and nuke tests and the Earth still warmed, would it be bad thing then?
The Politically Correct culturally sensitive Thanksgiving:
While we’re on the Climate Change, I think we’re now just chatting about things that are politicized here, so this is good. @Aragorn, I don’t think you’re threadjacking anything important.
The crux of it is that right now, we can’t make any statistically meaningful predictions about the future mean temperatures of the earth. Even the UN IPCC scientists have confirmed that, “The long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.” Similarly, they cannot yet predict how much our efforts to change will have a positive impact on global temperatures, if at all. Yes, the burning of fossil fuels, and resultant greenhouse gases impact the earth’s temperature. The earth has warmed about 1 degree Celsius from 1800 - 2000, since the end of the little ice-age. So yeah, natural fluctuation also going on. We know that greenhouse gases have been present in significant amounts to have an impact since the 1960’s.
As I understand it, these are things that are agreed on. You’ll find a few outliers, but I believe even the so-called reputable skeptics/ deniers generally agree on this. The idea that this will result in EPIC catastrophe, is not being asserted by the UN IPCC. This rhetoric is coming from journalists and groups like Greenpeace who have an interest in selling an idea. These are generally not disinterested/ objective/ nonpartisan people who don’t have a reason to rally the troops. On the other end of the spectrum, we have journalists or politicians mostly from the right who like to call it a hoax. They also have political reasons for saying that. This is position is also not warranted by the scientific literature.
I guess for the CCW’s, if you are not hysterical, you simply don’t care. It’s amazing to me that the people of CA put up with that crap consistently. I don’t know if the measure past, but I know the California legislature was considering a bill to bar building fires in fireplaces in homes. That the intrusive behavior is tolerated.
At least you can smoke as much pot as you want, which I consider a good thing. Save for it being used as an opioid to blind one into thinking all this behaviour modification legislation is OK.
What people on the right and center don’t realize is that the fractures on the left are way deeper than the news whitewashes for our consumption. The traditional liberals are at war with the new liberals and it’s ugly, name calling, gloves-off kind of stuff.
It’s Bill Maher against academia, Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali being labeled officially as racists and xenophobes by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
It’s actually amusing to watch from the outside as SJW’s clash and destroy their own people because they aren’t as extremely fucked up as themselves…
I am fine with it. The more they act like that and delude themselves into moving further left, the less clowns will hold power.
The democrats did not just lose the White House, they have 68 fewers seats collectively in both houses than in 2008, 34 Governorships with most of those corresponding legislatures also remaining or turning red. It was a republican sweep from top to bottom. If the democrats don’t start looking at reality in what is really costing them these votes, they are going to continue to shrink.
Now I expect a bump for democrats in the mid-terms as historically that’s what happens when you get a party sweep, but how big a bump is up to them. Doubling down on shifting left isn’t going to do it.
You pretty much hit the nail right on the head. I mean right on the head…
Yes, the bag measure passed. The 10 cents per paper bag goes back to the grocery store. It’s not like the bags were ever “free.” Grocery stores buy bags, and they factor the costs into grocery prices. Don’t expect lower food prices. People feel happy that they are “doing something” and forcing me to “do something.” We’re fighting climate change one bag at a time! WHOOT!!! Hey, maybe it will help? You can legislate or justify anything in CA if you invoke “the environment.” It will be the biggest lefty reason for infringement on property rights, and personal freedoms we’ve ever seen. Meanwhile the limousine liberal has a house full of crap destined for the landfill, and could care less about creating carbon emissions as they fly to the East Coast of Hawaii with the family for Thanksgiving. But we’re bringing our own bags to the store, pat on the back!! Sorry to be so cynical about it, but it’s a little nauseating. I told you I have issues with authority!! I hate feeling like I’m part of a behavior modification program.
Oh, me too. Let them double-down on it.
The scene at the grocery store now. Haha! I am seeing some people carrying an armful of stuff out without a bag. It’s a good opportunity to show off your abs when you pull the hem of your shirt up to create an improvised bag. Awesome. @MaximusB, is this you?
This is very, very funny. @dchris, are you the person who posted this in another thread? I LIVE in this bubble. Seriously, this is my hood. 7% of my voting precinct voted Trump. I think there was less than 3% who went for a third party. Yep. Good times. You can see why putting a gun rack in my rear window has a certain appeal, just for the shock factor.
Almost, I make the cashier carry out my groceries when I don’t bring a bag. The look on their face is priceless, as they carry my pork, steak, and bacon to my car.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of academic scientists that are neither disinterested or objective about this
That’s so awesome! You’re my kind of rebel. I think a Trump sticker or an NRA sticker would have satisfactory effect.
I bet. I know you’re a researcher in an academic setting. I can imagine the funding for grants, and the pressure to conform within such a politicized field. You’d sure hate to be labeled a denier. That label is used pretty liberally for scientists who aren’t getting with the agenda, even if they are NOT in disagreement that human activity has an effect on global temperature increases.
Ha! Well, most of my rebellion happens in my head. Like Uma Thurman-style shark throwing. These people are my friends and neighbors. Just before the election I was asked to be part of a panel on diversity, as a political conservative. I’m considering it, but I don’t know if I’m really smart enough and informed enough to do a good job. I’d literally be the elephant in the room. That’s a little intimidating.
That’s a funny visual. Funny thing, I started bringing bags to the store a few years ago thinking it wouldn’t hurt. Then like a lot of people I lost interest in it and decided it was a pain. I’ll do a lot of things if I think it’s a decent idea, but as soon as I feel like someone’s trying to make me do something, I want to take all the paper bags and throw them on the ground in the parking lot. It’s a problem.
Pretty sad when it takes kids to show adults how stupid they can be.