Police Shoot to Death Man Swinging Crowbar

OBoile · January 26, 2012, 3:25am

[quote]Dijon wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why is shooting to incapacitate an impossibility? Can you explain this or do you just want to make a baseless declaration?[/quote]
Shooting to incapacitate is very difficult and not very effective. Its something that cops do in movies but not real life.

A family member of mine is a cop, and they learn on day 1 of fire arms training that you shoot for the center of the chest and you shoot until the person drops.

Dijon · January 26, 2012, 4:01am

[quote]WW3General wrote:
Dijon you are splitting hairs and just generally being a dick. You know exactly the type of situation we are talking about, so do not act like there is not a situation up for reference. [/quote]

I split hairs and argue semantics because if a given point someone makes is false and the rest of an argument is built on that point then it causes problems. I don’t like it when people make generalizations and think in absolutes; and that is usually evidenced by the language they use. When I attack points like that its because I want clarification and deviation from that point. I think it would be good to consider alternatives and not just stick with SPO in every case.

If we can agree that incapacitation of someone is possible with a gun, then I think that it should be a goal. Dumping 10 rounds into someone shouldn’t be the goal.

I’m not going to design a procedure for police to follow on an internet forum. Why would I be qualified to do that? The point from all of this is that I didn’t see a focused, concerted effort, to not kill the suspect that didn’t charge at the police who were too close to begin with. Call it fight or flight, adrenaline, whatever. I just see the possibility of a better result, through either different training or thinking. But no one seems to like that idea or even wants to consider it.

OBoile · January 26, 2012, 4:28am

[quote]Dijon wrote:

[quote]WW3General wrote:
Dijon you are splitting hairs and just generally being a dick. You know exactly the type of situation we are talking about, so do not act like there is not a situation up for reference. [/quote]

I split hairs and argue semantics because if a given point someone makes is false and the rest of an argument is built on that point then it causes problems. I don’t like it when people make generalizations and think in absolutes; and that is usually evidenced by the language they use. When I attack points like that its because I want clarification and deviation from that point. I think it would be good to consider alternatives and not just stick with SPO in every case.

If we can agree that incapacitation of someone is possible with a gun, then I think that it should be a goal. Dumping 10 rounds into someone shouldn’t be the goal.

I’m not going to design a procedure for police to follow on an internet forum. Why would I be qualified to do that? The point from all of this is that I didn’t see a focused, concerted effort, to not kill the suspect that didn’t charge at the police who were too close to begin with. Call it fight or flight, adrenaline, whatever. I just see the possibility of a better result, through either different training or thinking. But no one seems to like that idea or even wants to consider it.[/quote]
No one likes that idea because it is idiotic.
If you want to incapacitate someone, you use a taser, or pepper spray like these cops did. When that didn’t work, they raised the level force. While it is possible to incapacitate someone with a gun, it is a poor tool for that task.
Once again, the goal is to stop the threat. 10 rounds is perfectly justified in this case if that is what it takes.

RSGZ · January 26, 2012, 9:58am

My argument against shooting to incapacitate a criminal is, do you really want to be wasting tax money on keeping him alive in a hospital to then take him through court and spend his time in jail?

niksamaras · January 26, 2012, 10:43am

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why? A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard? No. Just the cop who shot was an asshole, first because when he started shooting the guy had just stopped moving, so he wasn’t a threat. Sure, even pretending to swing whatever he aws holding, but he just did it to threaten.

Secondly, because from 3 fucking meters away, a shot in the guy’s fucking knee would have put him out of danger in half a second. This guy didn’t hold a gun to justify this shit, he just a hold metal object, pretending to starting going against a cop who was 4 meters away. Really poor judgement from the cop.

Dre_the_Hatchet · January 26, 2012, 10:55am

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why? A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard? No. Just the cop who shot was an asshole, first because when he started shooting the guy had just stopped moving, so he wasn’t a threat. Sure, even pretending to swing whatever he aws holding, but he just did it to threaten. Secondly, because from 3 fucking meters away, a shot in the guy’s fucking knee would have put him out of danger in half a second. This guy didn’t hold a gun to justify this shit, he just a hold metal object, pretending to starting going against a cop who was 4 meters away. Really poor judgement from the cop. [/quote]

A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard?
Actually fucking yes, even for a fucking expert fucking marksman.

Also, lol @ “not being a threat”, “he did it only to intimidate” (you know this guy personally I assume?) and the rest of your post.

Please go read the last 2 pages of this thread, some very knowledgeable folks chimed in on this with their expertise.

Stern · January 26, 2012, 1:22pm

It’s quite clear that the cops should really be chewin less donuts and playing more Counter Strike. Amirite??!

Ulty · January 26, 2012, 2:06pm

Obviously, the cop should have shot the axe handle right where the guy was holding it, thus causing the axe to fly up in the air. After the dog caught the axe, the cop would then look at the perp with one raised eyebrow and a witty comment. At that point, the perp would have dropped to his knees and said, “Okay, you got me, I’ll talk.” The dog would then bark triumphantly.

The only reason the above scenario doesn’t happen is because the cop (and the dog) are not properly trained.

Also, guys like Dijon and niksamaras clearly don’t know shit about police tactics or realistic use of force.

Stern · January 26, 2012, 2:11pm

[quote]Ulty wrote:
The only reason the above scenario doesn’t happen is because the cop (and the dog) are not properly trained.
[/quote]

I give you:

DoubleDuce · January 26, 2012, 2:22pm

So, imagine that the cop holstering the weapon is your son, dad, or spouse. Still think the officer should guess that the guy is just posturing and take a wait and see approach to see if he swings the axe at them or not?

Ulty · January 26, 2012, 2:53pm

[quote]Stern wrote:

[quote]Ulty wrote:
The only reason the above scenario doesn’t happen is because the cop (and the dog) are not properly trained.
[/quote]

I give you:

[/quote]
Holy shit! What if the guy with the axe was actually an executive for the company that owned the police force!

Damn Directive 4!

overstand · January 26, 2012, 3:19pm

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why? A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard? No. Just the cop who shot was an asshole, first because when he started shooting the guy had just stopped moving, so he wasn’t a threat. Sure, even pretending to swing whatever he aws holding, but he just did it to threaten.

Secondly, because from 3 fucking meters away, a shot in the guy’s fucking knee would have put him out of danger in half a second. This guy didn’t hold a gun to justify this shit, he just a hold metal object, pretending to starting going against a cop who was 4 meters away. Really poor judgement from the cop. [/quote]

Holy shit you are a moron.

Shooting a moving target the size of a baseball in a stressful situation while holding a dog back with your other hand would be INCREDIBLY difficult. Can you imagine how shitty the officer would feel trying to explain to his dead partner’s wife and kids that the reason their husband/father just took an axe to the face is because you were “trying to shoot the perps knee cap”?? He would probably be fired too for not following proper fire arms procedure.

You have watched way too many movies.

johnman18 · January 26, 2012, 3:33pm

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]johnman18 wrote:
This is why I have a big smile on my face every time a cop is killed. FUCK THE POLICE YOU BITCH ASS PIGS!![/quote]

If you feel that strongly about it, you need to put those words on a bumper sticker. Or, are you just a tough guy on the internets?[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHA Yeah I’m just a “wanksta”

clinton131 · January 26, 2012, 3:34pm

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why? A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard? No. Just the cop who shot was an asshole, first because when he started shooting the guy had just stopped moving, so he wasn’t a threat. Sure, even pretending to swing whatever he aws holding, but he just did it to threaten.

Secondly, because from 3 fucking meters away, a shot in the guy’s fucking knee would have put him out of danger in half a second. This guy didn’t hold a gun to justify this shit, he just a hold metal object, pretending to starting going against a cop who was 4 meters away. Really poor judgement from the cop. [/quote]

Articulated by a civilian who has never been involved in or trained for a deadly force encounter. You have also watched too many movies.

Motivated suspects do not just drop in their tracks after being shot, especially by a hand gun. The exception would be if their central nervous system was taken out (brain, or spinal cord), which I am sure you are not advocating since you feel, in your fucked up reality, that shots to the extremities is what is going to stop this suspect.

And another thing, how does the cop being an asshole have anything to do with this? Do you know him? Even if he is an asshole he still had every right and responsibility to stop this guy from swinging an ax or whatever the hell it was at someone else.

How do you know that this suspect’s intent was to merely threaten the officers with the ax and not assault them with it? Obviously the guy is not making good choices in the first place to be in the predicament that he is in. After all he is wielding an ax and he has cops standing around him with guns pointed at him. I would like to think that a reasonable person would not get themselves into a situation such as this.

Therefore if the guy is not acting like a reasonable person in the first place why would the cops expect the suspect to make any future reasonable decisions? And if they do plan for anything reasonable coming from this guy and plan their tactics around that assumption then they are being complacent and complacency kills in their line of work.

I am sure you will Monday morning quarterback this some more, so when you do, come back with a better argument.

roybot · January 26, 2012, 3:42pm

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
So they would rather shoot to kill rather than incapacitate?[/quote]

There is no other way to shoot. You shoot to kill. Period. Anyone who thinks that shooting to incapacitate is even a possibility has watched way too many hollywood action flicks.[/quote]

Why? A shot in his fucking knee from 3 meters away is too fucking hard? No. Just the cop who shot was an asshole, first because when he started shooting the guy had just stopped moving, so he wasn’t a threat. Sure, even pretending to swing whatever he aws holding, but he just did it to threaten.

[/quote]

That’s not what happened. The axe guy was edging towards the cop, in a sort of boxer’s shuffle, at which point the cop opened fire.

roybot · January 26, 2012, 3:46pm

Even if a kneecapping would have been practical in that situation, don’t forget that they already tazered the guy in the face, and he walked away unfazed and untazed.

DoubleDuce · January 26, 2012, 3:46pm

[quote]clinton131 wrote: