Police and Citizens

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Fucked up story from NBC

From my understand, the police had set up a sting operation via a confidential informant (CI), who somehow lured or got involved with some violent home invasion type people. The CI was supposed to stay in the vehicle while the other three invaders broke into the home. Plans changed, and the CI went by the house with the guys, but before he did that he said the code word “Disney Land” or “Disney World” to indicate that something was wrong. He ends up getting shot by the police like 11 times while he was on his stomach. Head of the home invaders is laying by a tree on his stomach, gets shot 52 times. And no one is charged.
One person commented that if a regular citizen would go to jail, then the police shouldn’t be treated any differently.

Also, it was noted that in the past 15 years, there was something like 600 police-related homicides, and not one was found to be unjustified. Kind of strange, but who knows.[/quote]

Huh.

This was the same group who was torturing people during their home invasions, right? Yes, I believe that’s them. There were 11 officers with rifles involved. One suspect pulled a gun on the officers. In a situation like that, it’s easy to end up with a bunch of holes in you.

It was on video. The video was reviewed by the State AG. No evidence of a CRIME was found. I’m sure mistakes and errors were made if you are a nit-picking desk jockey that has never did tactical work, with no life-experience. You can bet they combed over the infrared footage from the chopper that showed the shooting.

And this might sound bad, but if the city settled for $600k for 3 dead, they didn’t have much of a wrongful death case if you follow this stuff. One family got $120k? C’mon…

I’m not privy to all the facts in this case, but typically there is more to the story than just the byline. In short, the suspects that got killed were real shitbags. CI included if you know anything about CIs.[/quote]

Well they shot their confidential informant.

102

Also Brett, did you watch the video where the assistant DA had something relevant to say?
It’s towards the end of the clip.

103

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Fucked up story from NBC

From my understand, the police had set up a sting operation via a confidential informant (CI), who somehow lured or got involved with some violent home invasion type people. The CI was supposed to stay in the vehicle while the other three invaders broke into the home. Plans changed, and the CI went by the house with the guys, but before he did that he said the code word “Disney Land” or “Disney World” to indicate that something was wrong. He ends up getting shot by the police like 11 times while he was on his stomach. Head of the home invaders is laying by a tree on his stomach, gets shot 52 times. And no one is charged.
One person commented that if a regular citizen would go to jail, then the police shouldn’t be treated any differently.

Also, it was noted that in the past 15 years, there was something like 600 police-related homicides, and not one was found to be unjustified. Kind of strange, but who knows.[/quote]

Huh.

This was the same group who was torturing people during their home invasions, right? Yes, I believe that’s them. There were 11 officers with rifles involved. One suspect pulled a gun on the officers. In a situation like that, it’s easy to end up with a bunch of holes in you.

It was on video. The video was reviewed by the State AG. No evidence of a CRIME was found. I’m sure mistakes and errors were made if you are a nit-picking desk jockey that has never did tactical work, with no life-experience. You can bet they combed over the infrared footage from the chopper that showed the shooting.

And this might sound bad, but if the city settled for $600k for 3 dead, they didn’t have much of a wrongful death case if you follow this stuff. One family got $120k? C’mon…

I’m not privy to all the facts in this case, but typically there is more to the story than just the byline. In short, the suspects that got killed were real shitbags. CI included if you know anything about CIs.[/quote]

Well they shot their confidential informant.[/quote]

You mean the snitch working off charges? The one who reached for his waistband? Just another layer to the story.

104

20 gunshot wounds to their CI who was laying on the ground, and only minutes earlier had signaled to them that things were going wrong.
Ok Brett, nothing weird about this at all.

Searchable link from google
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cw9tZvRJLPwJ:https://cbsmiami.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/redlandcloseout.pdf+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

https://cbsmiami.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/redlandcloseout.pdf

105

So Brett, minutes previous he is telling his handler(s) that things aren’t right, then he’s trying to pull a gun on them?
Does that add up to you? anyone else?

106

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Brett, we need more like you. A lot more.[/quote]

In all fairness, it took a few years for me to obtain my perspective. I was prior military, and when I was a younger officer, I lived for the adrenaline. After awhile, I got tired of arresting people for crimes that I was rather indifferent to… So I did some thinking. What kind of person really needs to be in jail?

So I decided to work child abuse.

107

Like there’s video footage from the vehicle of him telling them something about Disney, which was ?I am going to Disney World.?

And then they shot him, while he was lying down. No harm no foul I guess.

108

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Fucked up story from NBC

From my understand, the police had set up a sting operation via a confidential informant (CI), who somehow lured or got involved with some violent home invasion type people. The CI was supposed to stay in the vehicle while the other three invaders broke into the home. Plans changed, and the CI went by the house with the guys, but before he did that he said the code word “Disney Land” or “Disney World” to indicate that something was wrong. He ends up getting shot by the police like 11 times while he was on his stomach. Head of the home invaders is laying by a tree on his stomach, gets shot 52 times. And no one is charged.
One person commented that if a regular citizen would go to jail, then the police shouldn’t be treated any differently.

Also, it was noted that in the past 15 years, there was something like 600 police-related homicides, and not one was found to be unjustified. Kind of strange, but who knows.[/quote]

Huh.

This was the same group who was torturing people during their home invasions, right? Yes, I believe that’s them. There were 11 officers with rifles involved. One suspect pulled a gun on the officers. In a situation like that, it’s easy to end up with a bunch of holes in you.

It was on video. The video was reviewed by the State AG. No evidence of a CRIME was found. I’m sure mistakes and errors were made if you are a nit-picking desk jockey that has never did tactical work, with no life-experience. You can bet they combed over the infrared footage from the chopper that showed the shooting.

And this might sound bad, but if the city settled for $600k for 3 dead, they didn’t have much of a wrongful death case if you follow this stuff. One family got $120k? C’mon…

I’m not privy to all the facts in this case, but typically there is more to the story than just the byline. In short, the suspects that got killed were real shitbags. CI included if you know anything about CIs.[/quote]

Well they shot their confidential informant.[/quote]

You mean the snitch working off charges? The one who reached for his waistband? Just another layer to the story. I can’t fully evaluate the shooting without seeing the video, but evidently the AG did. [/quote]

Did you watch the video with the assistant DA?

109

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I also don’t have a problem with citizens owning the same firearms I have access to. In fact, if I encounter a citizen who is carrying, my first thought is, “Cool. He’s one of US.” That’s the way I look at it. To qualify, it automatically puts you in a certain class of people with shared values.[/quote]

My two encounters with law enforcement since getting my concealed weapons permit both went very smoothly. I turn the dome light on, keep both hands on the wheel and present my carry permit along with my driver’s license.

They gave me warnings for my traffic transgressions and we went our separate ways. No mention was made about my sidearm.

The handful of cops and one ATF agent I know echo your sentiment.

I also recall reading about a police poll that showed widespread support for concealed carry laws among rank-and-file law enforcement.

I suppose this is a sensible sentiment to hold, since a concealed carry permit is probably the closest thing to a “good guy card” that the government issues to the general public.

110

[Brett620 wrote:
You mean the snitch working off charges? [/quote]
Doesn’t sound that way to me. See the bolded. Sounds like he approached the police to help take the other 3 down.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2012-05-24/news/miami-dade-police-lured-robbers-to-the-redland-then-shot-them/full/

[quote]Just as in 1997, the home invasions kept coming. On January 16, 2011, Gonzalez’s son, Roger Jr., was released from prison for his own series of robberies. Now working as a team, they targeted drug dealers and criminals, police say, but also tied up innocent families. During one smash-and-grab, the thieves cut their victim’s boxer shorts and then slashed his scrotum before stealing his Mercedes SUV. A few weeks later, one of them tried to cut off a victim’s finger.

Cops soon caught a break. Rosendo Betancourt had recently finished a three-year sentence for cocaine trafficking. The wiry Cuban had past convictions for stealing cars and threatening witnesses. He also had connections to Roger ­Gonzalez Sr. Betancourt secretly approached Miami-Dade police and told them the Gonzalezes were responsible for the vicious break-ins, court records show. Cops began wiretapping the father and son’s phones and planning how to bust the gang[/quote]

111

Brett, how do you think future CIs, or people who want to step forward to help rid the streets of bad people, like the 3 from the story, will feel about working with police because of this? or are all CIs shit-eating scumbags?

112

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Also Brett, did you watch the video where the assistant DA had something relevant to say?
It’s towards the end of the clip.[/quote]

Are you referring to the “in fear of my life” statement or when he said there we many troubling aspects? I agree that shooting was troubling.

It was difficult for me to have sympathy for the suspects due to knowing how they tortued the homeowners they robbed. It’s not like the officers shot the guys because they got the wrong address on a search warrant. These were hardened criminals that were armed and pointed guns at the police.

113

800×1200 302 KB

North Hollywood Shootout Museum

“…But you do profess discomfort with lots of gun owners…”

I don’t think that is what I said, Push.

I expressed my discomfort with millions of people running around with greater firepower than our Police and Military.

I think there is a difference.

Sure…I suppose that someone could own RPG’s; military grade automatic weapons with grenade launchers; stingers; anti-tank weapons and a Hell-Fire or two…and use them “responsibly”…

But I worry about the thousands, if not millions, hell-bent on anarchy; over-throw; and Power and Dominion over others.

I know we’ve talked about the Middle East; but I’m reminded of an incident a few years ago known as “The North Hollywood Shootout”:

Two bank robbers, dressed in Body Armor,…with Weapons and Firepower that made the police who surrounded them look like kids with BB Guns. (They were eventually brought down by a heavily armed SWAT Team…and even then, it was not easy…)

My point is this…on balance… I think that it is wiser for our Police and Military to have greater capabilities than the citizenry.

Now…I may feel differently if I was, or had been, a victim of Police Abuses…I’m sure of it…

But in one of those ironies in discussing these types of topics…the ones screaming the loudest are usually the ones affected the least.

(Again…Great discussion…!)

Mufasa

114

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Brett, how do you think future CIs, or people who want to step forward to help rid the streets of bad people, like the 3 from the story, will feel about working with police because of this? or are all CIs shit-eating scumbags?[/quote]

Haha. Have you ever signed up a CI? Do you think there may be more to that bolded section you posted outlining his prior history? Did you ask yourself what was his “connection” with the ringleader in that quote you posted? Trust me. These guys are NOT doing this shit for “the good of the community”! Why would this guy risk his life with these thugs? I have dealt with CIs. They are a seedy bunch. Better yet, get a defense attorney’s opinion on the character of your typical informant.

How do you get CIs? Easy. I won’t get into all of it, since it’s a dirty business and I didn’t like it. But I think you are confusing a helpful, law-abiding citizen looking out for his community with a “snitch”. This guy was a snitch. It’s likely he is knocking off his rivals, cashing in favors, working off charges, or yes- even getting paid!

115

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
North Hollywood Shootout Museum

“…But you do profess discomfort with lots of gun owners…”

I don’t think that is what I said, Push.

I expressed my discomfort with millions of people running around with greater firepower than our Police and Military.

I think there is a difference.

Sure…I suppose that someone could own RPG’s; military grade automatic weapons with grenade launchers; stingers; anti-tank weapons and a Hell-Fire or two…and use them “responsibly”…

But I worry about the thousands, if not millions, hell-bent on anarchy; over-throw; and Power and Dominion over others.

I know we’ve talked about the Middle East; but I’m reminded of an incident a few years ago known as “The North Hollywood Shootout”:

Two bank robbers, dressed in Body Armor,…with Weapons and Firepower that made the police who surrounded them look like kids with BB Guns. (They were eventually brought down by a heavily armed SWAT Team…and even then, it was not easy…)

My point is this…on balance… I think that it is wiser for our Police and Military to have greater capabilities than the citizenry.

Now…I may feel differently if I was, or had been, a victim of Police Abuses…I’m sure of it…

But in one of those ironies in discussing these types of topics…the ones screaming the loudest are usually the ones affected the least.

(Again…Great discussion…!)

Mufasa
[/quote]

I was going to post a similar point. That story is a great example.

116

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
So Brett, minutes previous he is telling his handler(s) that things aren’t right, then he’s trying to pull a gun on them?
Does that add up to you? anyone else?[/quote]

I said it was troubling. I just told you what was reported.

117

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
In the US the people are not supposed to be sovereign - the Constitution is supposed to be sovereign.
[/quote]

In my estimation neither are sovereign in the U.S. at this time.

118

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Otherwise, law is nothing more than words on paper.
[/quote]

Even with a monopoly of force laws are just words on paper.

I still think it is ideal for the people to empower government(s) to enforce rule of law established through representation. Local, state, and national governments do not need a monopoly of force in order to enforce law and order. 99.99% of situations involving the law being broke involve minuscule percentages of a populace. It takes adequate force to re-establish order, but not a monopoly of force. In the one or two events (Revolution & Civil War) where a significant percentage of the populace is involved I would not want a single entity to have more power than the whole of the population combined. That to me, is more dangerous then the potential for mob rule, which imo already occurs. It’s been going on for 6 years and before that there was an 8 year span of mob rule. So on and so forth.

119

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I also don’t have a problem with citizens owning the same firearms I have access to. In fact, if I encounter a citizen who is carrying, my first thought is, “Cool. He’s one of US.” That’s the way I look at it. To qualify, it automatically puts you in a certain class of people with shared values.[/quote]

My two encounters with law enforcement since getting my concealed weapons permit both went very smoothly. I turn the dome light on, keep both hands on the wheel and present my carry permit along with my driver’s license.

They gave me warnings for my traffic transgressions and we went our separate ways. No mention was made about my sidearm.

The handful of cops and one ATF agent I know echo your sentiment.

I also recall reading about a police poll that showed widespread support for concealed carry laws among rank-and-file law enforcement.

I suppose this is a sensible sentiment to hold, since a concealed carry permit is probably the closest thing to a “good guy card” that the government issues to the general public.[/quote]

Things are NOT like this in MA, at least in the county I live in…

120

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

Two bank robbers, dressed in Body Armor,…with Weapons and Firepower that made the police who surrounded them look like kids with BB Guns. (They were eventually brought down by a heavily armed SWAT Team…and even then, it was not easy…)

[/quote]

This isn’t a recent development… There are examples of this throughout the history of the country.

Why is it all the sudden a major concern now, where it wasn’t before, that the statistically miniscule amount of people that would do this, will suddenly multiply exponentially and become “rebel forces” in a vast overthrow of the current structure?

Take the weapons bans of '86. Why didn’t the fact automatic weapons could be held by civilians prior to that end up in total destruction, if we so desperately needed to ban the ownership of automatic weapons in the hands of civilians manufactured post that date?