So are you trying to say that healthy children only effect immediate parents and no one else? Pretty weak and far stretch! Plus do not forget no one knows the outcome of even a healthy child. I know far more families negatively effected by normal kids compared to the reward of helping a person with their handicaps.
All people have difficult portions of their lives. Since when did tearing a child apart, limb from limb make things better?!?
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Does anyone here have children? Does anyone here have serious hands on experience taking care of seriously handicapped children?
Let me just go ahead and say that the needs of a seriously handicapped child affect FAR more people than just the immediate parents. Regardless of how you stand on abortion people need to recognize that from a practical standpoint a handicapped child affects all immediate family and relatives if not further flung than that. I am at this moment dealing with the financial repercussions of my sister in laws handicapped child and other poor financial decisions.
This doesn’t necessarily impact all argumentation on this point, but it is a practical point I have not seen mentioned here. Most folks seem to think the impact stops at the mother or at most both parents.[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So are you trying to say that healthy children only effect immediate parents and no one else? Pretty weak and far stretch! Plus do not forget no one knows the outcome of even a healthy child. I know far more families negatively effected by normal kids compared to the reward of helping a person with their handicaps.
All people have difficult portions of their lives. Since when did tearing a child apart, limb from limb make things better?!?
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Does anyone here have children? Does anyone here have serious hands on experience taking care of seriously handicapped children?
Let me just go ahead and say that the needs of a seriously handicapped child affect FAR more people than just the immediate parents. Regardless of how you stand on abortion people need to recognize that from a practical standpoint a handicapped child affects all immediate family and relatives if not further flung than that. I am at this moment dealing with the financial repercussions of my sister in laws handicapped child and other poor financial decisions.
This doesn’t necessarily impact all argumentation on this point, but it is a practical point I have not seen mentioned here. Most folks seem to think the impact stops at the mother or at most both parents.[/quote]
[/quote]
Kneedragger- I am not, but I am saying that from a financial and care standpoint a handicapped child’s needs are far and away more drastic. Many times someone has to quit there job and/or find someone to watch the child full time (as is the case in my family’s situation). Huge health care costs, etc. A healthy child is unlikely to bankrupt you the way a severely handicapped child is. This is not a stretch, this is just the facts of the case.
Do you really know far more families impacted worse by normal kids? Is this because you don’t know many handicapped kids and their families and have no experience with it yourself? My guess is yes.
I am not advocating either side of this argument. I am not fully settled myself (as a parent of one with another on the way) on this topic. What I am saying to you is that it is extremely short sighted when someone says ‘the mother should have taken responsibility for her actions’ as if she is the only one impacted. Is the right of that unborn child (in my example severely handicapped and almost certain to die young anyways) greater than the well being of the whole family unit and beyond?
And for the record, my mother has worked as a Special Ed teacher for nearly 30 years. While she freely admits down syndrome kids and the like are some of the happiest kids on the planet, have no illusions that having a special needs child is not a massive life-altering affair that is all consuming.
Also have no illusions that most of these kids will lead long, healthy productive lives. Most kids with serious disabilities will be in and out of hospitals their entire lives, have increasingly impaired functions, die in their late teens/early 20’s and if they are cognizant of their state at all will often be massively depressed and self conscious.
It is an extraordinarily difficult life for the child and for the parents. It is easy to say from a distance “that’s just the hand life dealt you” or “every child is special”. When you realize the financial and emotional burden these children bring on a family, particularly siblings, things are not quite as black and white as many on here would like to make them out to be.
kilpaba - I do know a few special needs families because IMHO I try to be more aware of the people I see around me. Plus I have my own challenges with a severe TBI. I was in a coma, on life support for ~3 weeks, total coma was 6 weeks in length. Thank God I wasn’t unplugged at any time. I realize a child and myself are two separate cases. Yet life is still the key point. ALL life deserves a chance at life, in this world!! Who are we to say, this child MIGHT be a burden or MIGHT be an inconvenience or MIGHT be a reward in many ways??
Please try to not judge everything you see and look at only the surface. Realize the things you/I worked hardest for in this life have the greatest reward.
Prove me wrong by arguing that tearing a child apart while in the womb, solves the problem.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
And for the record, my mother has worked as a Special Ed teacher for nearly 30 years. While she freely admits down syndrome kids and the like are some of the happiest kids on the planet, have no illusions that having a special needs child is not a massive life-altering affair that is all consuming.
Also have no illusions that most of these kids will lead long, healthy productive lives. Most kids with serious disabilities will be in and out of hospitals their entire lives, have increasingly impaired functions, die in their late teens/early 20’s and if they are cognizant of their state at all will often be massively depressed and self conscious.
It is an extraordinarily difficult life for the child and for the parents. It is easy to say from a distance “that’s just the hand life dealt you” or “every child is special”. When you realize the financial and emotional burden these children bring on a family, particularly siblings, things are not quite as black and white as many on here would like to make them out to be. [/quote]
[quote]florelius wrote:
For me the question about abortion is a dilemma. Its a question beetwen liberty and life.
To be more specific. what is most important:
the womans right to control here own body?
the fetus`s right to life?
To act like this is not a dilemma is dumb and both sides should be able to see the moral conlict here.
So this scientific debate you had going on was irrelevant, the question you must ask yourself is the above,
whats more important: nr.1 or nr.2
I choose nr.1 btw.[/quote]
What is more serious…not killing someone or a woman’s choice to avoid responsibility? That is the real question from the angle you’re looking at.
However, I much prefer to look at the women’s rights (without excluding the rights of the baby*). If you look at adoption and what the states require of people and the mother if the mother decides to give her child up for adoption is much different than what is required for abortion. They basically make sure she full well knows what she is doing when she gives the child up for adoption compared to barely asking questions when a mother comes in for an abortion.
The reason I say that is because I do not deny at anytime the baby’s right to life. The mother and father have the responsibility (because they have the freedom to procreate they have the responsibility of the effects of pro-creative actions) to take reasonable measures that the baby is born and raised without harm. So, absolutely abortion is wrong. As well, you cannot justify the means by the end.
Murder is never justifiable or is always wrong.
Killing an innocent person is murder.
Babies are innocent persons.
Abortion kills babies.
Abortion is always wrong.[/quote]
So you dont see the dilemma then. [/quote]
I see the dilemma. I choose 1, she has the right to control her own body (she can participate in conjugal acts or not). That said she does not have the right to kill an innocent person no matter what.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Does anyone here have children? Does anyone here have serious hands on experience taking care of seriously handicapped children?[/quote]
Yes, I do. I care for several actually.
[quote]
Let me just go ahead and say that the needs of a seriously handicapped child affect FAR more people than just the immediate parents. Regardless of how you stand on abortion people need to recognize that from a practical standpoint a handicapped child affects all immediate family and relatives if not further flung than that. I am at this moment dealing with the financial repercussions of my sister in laws handicapped child and other poor financial decisions.[/quote]
Are you saying because a child may produce financial hard ship, or are handicapped that it is okay to kill someone?
[quote]
This doesn’t necessarily impact all argumentation on this point, but it is a practical point I have not seen mentioned here. Most folks seem to think the impact stops at the mother or at most both parents.[/quote]
No it doesn’t impact any arguments. My girlfriend is an OT and I help her when I have free time. As well, her cousin, my cousins, and several other family friends have handicapped children. As well, during the summer when I do not have school, I go and help at a care home for children that need care up to 24/7. My cousin is a quadriplegic, as well. He is 32 years old, and has never since birth. None of them, not even my cousin who can’t do a single thing for himself physically, is any less dignified because of their condition. They do not deserve to die because of what was dealt to them.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
And for the record, my mother has worked as a Special Ed teacher for nearly 30 years. While she freely admits down syndrome kids and the like are some of the happiest kids on the planet, have no illusions that having a special needs child is not a massive life-altering affair that is all consuming.
Also have no illusions that most of these kids will lead long, healthy productive lives. Most kids with serious disabilities will be in and out of hospitals their entire lives, have increasingly impaired functions, die in their late teens/early 20’s and if they are cognizant of their state at all will often be massively depressed and self conscious.
It is an extraordinarily difficult life for the child and for the parents. It is easy to say from a distance “that’s just the hand life dealt you” or “every child is special”. When you realize the financial and emotional burden these children bring on a family, particularly siblings, things are not quite as black and white as many on here would like to make them out to be. [/quote]
This sounds like you’re saying because life is hard, we should kill someone?
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
And for the record, my mother has worked as a Special Ed teacher for nearly 30 years. While she freely admits down syndrome kids and the like are some of the happiest kids on the planet, have no illusions that having a special needs child is not a massive life-altering affair that is all consuming.
Also have no illusions that most of these kids will lead long, healthy productive lives. Most kids with serious disabilities will be in and out of hospitals their entire lives, have increasingly impaired functions, die in their late teens/early 20’s and if they are cognizant of their state at all will often be massively depressed and self conscious.
It is an extraordinarily difficult life for the child and for the parents. It is easy to say from a distance “that’s just the hand life dealt you” or “every child is special”. When you realize the financial and emotional burden these children bring on a family, particularly siblings, things are not quite as black and white as many on here would like to make them out to be. [/quote]
This sounds like you’re saying because life is hard, we should kill someone?[/quote]
Bro C- As I mentioned I am not sure how I sit on the issue. My wife and I opted not to have an abortion as it didn’t feel right when we had our first little surprise. I could not be happier with the results, but…
What I am saying is that one does have to consider the many negative ramifications a handicapped child can bring on a wide range of people. It does not ONLY effect the people involved in the coital act. Are the parents responsible for the acts of the adult children? The grand parents? All of society?
I applaud your efforts in your own life, I honestly do because I know how hard that must be, but most people either do not have the family safety net to provide the needed support or simply would not provide proper care or would be UNABLE to provide adequate care. If the child is then put into “the system” it means the responsibility is now shifted to others without their consent. They were certainly not involved in the coital act.
I am simply saying the situation is not as black and white as people would make out. Cultures all over the world and throughout history have had to deal with this moral dilemma and they all found their own way. For example, in some other cultures the elderly will go off to die when they become too infirm and are a detriment to the tribe (the Inuits in particular) or what many cultures practiced of aborting children they could not take care of so that the current family is not harmed due to resource scarcity. These are not bad people who do not love their family and children. They just concluded that one life shouldn’t ALWAYS trump the lives of everyone else.
The living have rights as do the unborn. But it is not always as straightforward a dilemma as the woman’s rights vs. the fetus’ rights. It is also the parents rights vs. the siblings rights vs. the woman’s rights vs. the father’s rights vs. the child’s rights.
It is a very tough question and one I just recently had to ask myself. My wife and I just became pregnant again and their were concerns over miscarriage and the like that came up. It got me thinking- would I want my child to go through what my niece is going through/will go through? My gut feeling is I would never want my child to suffer like that with no end in sight, but the thought of losing our baby was overwhelming. Perhaps I would be selfish for insisting on going through with the pregnancy. After all, I wouldn’t let a dog suffer the way I see some humans suffer. I don’t advocate murdering dogs, but ending suffering is another ball game or at least it seems to be.
The human genome is 3164.7 million chemical nucleotide bases. If my math is correct, then 1% would be 3164700000000 base pairs are different than the closets related ape. Sorry I did round up ONE because of .99
Your logic is astounding ryan!! The fact we came from animals is a theory. Yet to be proven as universally accepted, far from it. Please stop reaching.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Umm…let me list some things off the top of my head:
-we came from animals
-animals are driven by their instinctual urges, and can do little to control their hunger, thirst, libido. If these things are placed in jeopardy, they will frequently become aggressive in an attempt to secure access to these things. If we have learned nothing from history, it is that, despite a veneer of civilization when we are well-fed, clothed, and sheltered, humans quickly and completely shed any pretense of morality when these basic material resources are threatened. Just like an animal.
-animals frequently engage in complicated, sometimes bizarre mating rituals; approximately 60% of the Internet (and approximately 90% of Facebook) is dedicated to mating rituals are related subjects in one way or another.
-science says we are:
“Humans, known taxonomically as Homo sapiens[3][4] (Latin for “wise man” or “knowing man”), are the only living species in the Homo genus of bipedal primates in Hominidae, the great ape family.”
Note: primates; great ape family.[/quote]
Uh oh, he quoted wiki ^
See above number for reference. And I gave YOU the largest percentage possible.
I have never once disputed this. Your reach is the fact we are the same, which all animals are NOT the same. Show me a single animal which will birth another separate species, naturally. One ryan.
[quote] Yet they are all animals!
An one animal will always be different from another animal! Yet you’re lumping them in together with no problem until we get to one particular animal: humans. [/quote]
Here you are reaching again. Now you compare humans to a dog. Nice!
The answer is NONE have the same type of knee that humans posses. Even your uncle, the Great Apes do NOT walk vertical and have the same structure in our knees. Find just one ryan, all I would like is one. I will repeat this again, animals DO NOT posses the same knees we have as humans. The reason we dissect pigs is because they are cheap and warm blooded, no other real reason. In fact pigs are nasty mean beasts that look timid compared to even your uncle the great apes.
So you are conceding this point because it makes sense to you?
You don’t even understand the words you type after this.
[quote]If the fact that they were both shaped like eggs was a natural adaptation that gave them a survival advantage, then perhaps.
No, it doesn’t, because in reality, an atom does not resemble the solar system. Electrons are not localized points, like planets, but “smeared out” wave-like things. They don’t even have a well-defined position most of the time. Furthermore, their orbits are not circular or elliptical. They’re not really even orbits.
Do you really not understand that only living things can evolve, or are you just taking the piss?[/quote]
Prove this false, together: 1) SIZE, 2) LEVEL OF DEVELOPMENT, 3) ENVIRONMENT and 4)DEGREE OF DEPENDENCY. All those traits together define each person on earth AND including the unborn!!
How is my statement false ryan? Literally prove me wrong. The fetus is alive because of the 4 traits I list, together they are irrefutable.
Do you?
Proving what? Even the laws are hypocritical? That means ONE is correct.
Really ryan?!? Because SHE wanted sex, she has the right to kill another person, aka an embryo?!
I’m glad we can kill anyone you deem “in the way of life” yet is it just your life, or can I get in on this vote as well? And removing the life is not nearly as easy as you would like to think.
Why should people be responsible? I know of many ways to NOT get pregnant. Do you lack the ability to prove you are a man ryan? Is that why you feel the need to impregnate women, then wipe the slate clean because responsibility of the life is too much to bear?
Because the child has to be slaughtered through abortion, this proves the life is viable!!
Oh I have, you simple minded buffoon. Again and again. Science proves the life is separate from the mother, SEPARATE DNA, along with the STEPS ABOVE 1, 2, 3 AND 4.
Do we call a young child in the crib a man or a child or an infant? What do you call yourself?
Glorious science you show below ryan. You have gone from an embryo to a functioning child. Do you NOT see the step you are reaching for? Your language even says they are the same!!
If English was a second language for you, I might understand. MIGHT, but I doubt it.
Oh I have and you simply refuse to understand the simple logic behind the fact you are wrong and have no stance.
You sure are a smartn wit in ura’ edicashon.
BTW ryan since you believe humans evolved from apes, please show me where the complex eye developed, in animals today. From the education I received the lamprey had the ability to sense light, then some fishies got some eyes that are very simple. Jump to animals which walk around the earth. Even those animals you call your uncle and they can see pretty well. But for the life of me I can’t remember how even one species of animals have the ability to see like humans can with the number of rods and cones. Let alone vary depth perception. Of the ones who do have similar eyes, they do not relate genetically to humans. Glad I don’t have to stretch again because I know I couldn’t reach the topic you want me to.
Here are some interesting tidbits about abortion:
The number regarding the total number of abortions is taken from clinics on an explicitly voluntary basis!! At least understated the numbers are only voluntarily reported, understated. 1.2 million abortions, minimum.
What are the unborn? Never have you addressed this point. Instead you are begging the question. Assuming the answer is the embryo and NOT a human.
Conjoined twins. They are not viable until after they are surgically separated. But are they not alive, by your standards.
You call the embryo parasites, but logically they are NOT parasites because those would be a different species than the host. An embryo is precisely where he belongs in the natural state of things.
Here is a question for you ryan. Say you have a medical degree and can prescribe medicine where you see fit. A woman comes into your clinic and complains of intractable nausea and vomiting. She wants you as her physician to help with the morning sickness. Thalidomide would work perfectly except there is a small problem. Thalidomide results in children with no limbs. Would YOU prescribe this drug knowing full well the possible side effects? Why or why not?
I am realizing with every passing day, ryan p mcarter, you are as dense as you are deranged. Please try to think before you try and offer further rebuttals.
I don’t care if a fetus is alive. The spider I killed the other day was a live. I care as to whether or not the fetus is a living human. What defines a human? Is a human just a fertilized egg? Women flush those away when they have their periods- not all fertilized eggs make it, remember, are they committing murder during their happy days now?
Does it count as a human if it’s a clump of cells? Does it think? Does it feel? Does it have experiences? Memories? Emotions? Do newborns? To what extent? What separates a newborn from an unborn? I don’t know. I don’t know any of those things. It could have developed into a human being, it could have been all of those things, but every time a sperm or an egg is flushed away, you’re throwing away what could have been a human being too.
I am not for or against abortions, there are simply far too many situations where it’s right and far too many situations where it’s wrong. I am for the choice to have an abortion, because I do not think the opinions of others should every deny a woman the choice as to what happens with her body, and the lives of both her, the father, and all of her friends, family members, and all others that are going to be affected by the birth of a child.
Because I can’t call it murder. I can’t call it murder because I’m stupid and uneducated, and because society’s definitions have failed me here. I can only form opinions. But it doesn’t matter what my opinion is. Someone else has a different one. And if all we can use to argue for one thing or another is opinions, than I don’t think we can ever make fair and just laws on the subject. We can only live our lives in the most kind and honest manner possible and decide our own moral and ethical guidelines, but we cannot push them onto others.
I understand there are exceptions to the statement above, but I do not view abortion as one of them. By all means hate abortion, I have no problem with that, I do have a problem with taking someone else’s right to abortion away.
Never realized ignorance was a valid excuse. Read this thread and try to understand the subject. Then come back and convince me the fetus is not alive. When you define the unborn, I will be very happy to discuss the subject with you.
Try not to say I don’t respect women. IMHO women when pregnant deserve the very best, the best Dr.'s, the best care and the best of what ever their hearts desire. However the life developing inside them deserve the chance at this life. Just because a woman finds the gift of life inconvenient, that does NOT mean they can kill the life they knowingly created, because the gift is not at the right time.
[quote]Reygekan wrote:
I don’t care if a fetus is alive. The spider I killed the other day was a live. I care as to whether or not the fetus is a living human. What defines a human? Is a human just a fertilized egg? Women flush those away when they have their periods- not all fertilized eggs make it, remember, are they committing murder during their happy days now?
Does it count as a human if it’s a clump of cells? Does it think? Does it feel? Does it have experiences? Memories? Emotions? Do newborns? To what extent? What separates a newborn from an unborn? I don’t know. I don’t know any of those things. It could have developed into a human being, it could have been all of those things, but every time a sperm or an egg is flushed away, you’re throwing away what could have been a human being too.
I am not for or against abortions, there are simply far too many situations where it’s right and far too many situations where it’s wrong. I am for the choice to have an abortion, because I do not think the opinions of others should every deny a woman the choice as to what happens with her body, and the lives of both her, the father, and all of her friends, family members, and all others that are going to be affected by the birth of a child.
Because I can’t call it murder. I can’t call it murder because I’m stupid and uneducated, and because society’s definitions have failed me here. I can only form opinions. But it doesn’t matter what my opinion is. Someone else has a different one. And if all we can use to argue for one thing or another is opinions, than I don’t think we can ever make fair and just laws on the subject. We can only live our lives in the most kind and honest manner possible and decide our own moral and ethical guidelines, but we cannot push them onto others.
I understand there are exceptions to the statement above, but I do not view abortion as one of them. By all means hate abortion, I have no problem with that, I do have a problem with taking someone else’s right to abortion away.[/quote]
Quick thought experiment for everyone. Let’s assume a pregnant woman already has a small child. They are outside of their apartment about to go down some stairs. The little boy runs away and then back at the mother. If the mother does not move the child will smash into her stomach and cause a miscarriage (assume this is guaranteed). If the mother moves the small child will fall down the stairs and die (again assume this is guaranteed). Who does the mother save? Does she have more or less obligations to one of the children (one born the other unborn)?
You assume someone has to die. What the fuck for?!? Why does a person/child/embryo have to die? Are you trying to ask if one life is more valuable then the other?
If this is the case, why not go the other way and let me ask about your mother? Let’s say she is on life support and will die if you do not pay for the care. Is the money better in your pocket or giving more time to your mother. By the way, we really can not tell how long your mother will live and money is really tight. Time also might enable a cure for her disease.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Quick thought experiment for everyone. Let’s assume a pregnant woman already has a small child. They are outside of their apartment about to go down some stairs. The little boy runs away and then back at the mother. If the mother does not move the child will smash into her stomach and cause a miscarriage (assume this is guaranteed). If the mother moves the small child will fall down the stairs and die (again assume this is guaranteed). Who does the mother save? Does she have more or less obligations to one of the children (one born the other unborn)?[/quote]
This is where the idea of choice comes in. People have the choice to do a whole lot of things. I could, by my own free will, burn down my house and kill myself, simply because I wanted to. I could murder my boss with my hands, and take his job. I could drink myself to death. What is stopping me from doing these things and keeping me in a good school? My own morality. That little moral compass inside of my head. I am neither for abortion nor against it, partially because I am a man, but mostly because it is a choice that is rightfully up to the parties involved. If I want to go and do and do lines of blow off of drugged out hookers, I’m going to fucking do it whether people of X religion or Y personal belief or Z political ideology believe that I should or not.
I don’t need someone’s approval to live my own life, and I don’t force people to live their lives for my approval. This is why the saying is “pro choice” not “pro dead babies”. Allowing abortions by choice does not mean that the human race as a whole is going to stop procreating and die out, and nobody is ever getting forced abortions.
Abortion should be a regulated medical procedure not unlike any other, including choosing a natural birth (more risky for the child), and others.
I don’t care what you think about me, I don’t care whether you believe things the way I do or not. You live your life however you want to, and I’ll live mine.
grayman - You are correct about choice! Morality does stop you from killing the neighbor down the street or your boss or whomever you deem. Even with cocaine and hookers, that is YOUR choice! Then you drive away from logic when you say you are a man. As a man you are half of the equation in creation of said life. What if you do not want the child and the mother does? Or vice versa? Where is the voice of the child?!? And I have never once brought religion into the thread and I do not need to, because science proves the case for life.
My moral compass tells me how horrible abortion is. Watch a video of the event and tell me how warm and fuzzy YOU feel afterward.
BTW a woman at any stage of pregnancy can walk into the majority of clinics throughout this entire country and receive an abortion because she decides she does not want the child on that particular day.
If you disagree, define for me: the unborn
[quote]grayman19 wrote:
This is where the idea of choice comes in. People have the choice to do a whole lot of things. I could, by my own free will, burn down my house and kill myself, simply because I wanted to. I could murder my boss with my hands, and take his job. I could drink myself to death. What is stopping me from doing these things and keeping me in a good school? My own morality. That little moral compass inside of my head. I am neither for abortion nor against it, partially because I am a man, but mostly because it is a choice that is rightfully up to the parties involved. If I want to go and do and do lines of blow off of drugged out hookers, I’m going to fucking do it whether people of X religion or Y personal belief or Z political ideology believe that I should or not.
I don’t need someone’s approval to live my own life, and I don’t force people to live their lives for my approval. This is why the saying is “pro choice” not “pro dead babies”. Allowing abortions by choice does not mean that the human race as a whole is going to stop procreating and die out, and nobody is ever getting forced abortions.
Abortion should be a regulated medical procedure not unlike any other, including choosing a natural birth (more risky for the child), and others.
I don’t care what you think about me, I don’t care whether you believe things the way I do or not. You live your life however you want to, and I’ll live mine. [/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You assume someone has to die. What the fuck for?!? Why does a person/child/embryo have to die? Are you trying to ask if one life is more valuable then the other?
If this is the case, why not go the other way and let me ask about your mother? Let’s say she is on life support and will die if you do not pay for the care. Is the money better in your pocket or giving more time to your mother. By the way, we really can not tell how long your mother will live and money is really tight. Time also might enable a cure for her disease.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Quick thought experiment for everyone. Let’s assume a pregnant woman already has a small child. They are outside of their apartment about to go down some stairs. The little boy runs away and then back at the mother. If the mother does not move the child will smash into her stomach and cause a miscarriage (assume this is guaranteed). If the mother moves the small child will fall down the stairs and die (again assume this is guaranteed). Who does the mother save? Does she have more or less obligations to one of the children (one born the other unborn)?[/quote]
[/quote]
Yes Kneedragger, that is the point of a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. You set certain parameters and situations and you THINK about them. Preferably very definite parameters so there aren’t a whole bunch of “what if’s” involved as in your own example which is so vague it is not even worth discussing until several things are cleared up on her condition, etc.
Please inform me as to the vague aspects of abortion.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You assume someone has to die. What the fuck for?!? Why does a person/child/embryo have to die? Are you trying to ask if one life is more valuable then the other?
If this is the case, why not go the other way and let me ask about your mother? Let’s say she is on life support and will die if you do not pay for the care. Is the money better in your pocket or giving more time to your mother. By the way, we really can not tell how long your mother will live and money is really tight. Time also might enable a cure for her disease.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Quick thought experiment for everyone. Let’s assume a pregnant woman already has a small child. They are outside of their apartment about to go down some stairs. The little boy runs away and then back at the mother. If the mother does not move the child will smash into her stomach and cause a miscarriage (assume this is guaranteed). If the mother moves the small child will fall down the stairs and die (again assume this is guaranteed). Who does the mother save? Does she have more or less obligations to one of the children (one born the other unborn)?[/quote]
[/quote]
Yes Kneedragger, that is the point of a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. You set certain parameters and situations and you THINK about them. Preferably very definite parameters so there aren’t a whole bunch of “what if’s” involved as in your own example which is so vague it is not even worth discussing until several things are cleared up on her condition, etc.
[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please inform me as to the vague aspects of abortion.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If this is the case, why not go the other way and let me ask about your mother? Let’s say she is on life support and will die if you do not pay for the care. Is the money better in your pocket or giving more time to your mother. By the way, we really can not tell how long your mother will live and money is really tight. Time also might enable a cure for her disease.
[/quote]
Are you kidding me? I was referring to the example you gave while dodging my own. It is right there above in the quote, the one where you are referencing my mother being on life support. It is vague because it lists no specifics on anything.
It is quite easy, your mother is on life support and will die if you don’t pay for it, out of your own pocket. Will you pay a lot of money or simply unplug your mom? The longer your mother is on life support the better odds are a cure will come along for your mom. Or she might just suffer a long, miserable life. But you don’t know, that is just a guess.
See I don’t need specifics to bait you.
edited for quotation:
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please inform me as to the vague aspects of abortion.
[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
If this is the case, why not go the other way and let me ask about your mother? Let’s say she is on life support and will die if you do not pay for the care. Is the money better in your pocket or giving more time to your mother. By the way, we really can not tell how long your mother will live and money is really tight. Time also might enable a cure for her disease.
[/quote]
Are you kidding me? I was referring to the example you gave while dodging my own. It is right there above in the quote, the one where you are referencing my mother being on life support. It is vague because it lists no specifics on anything.
[/quote]
Wow, so what to say here? Answer mine and I will answer your, still ridiculously vague, example which also changes right at the end. Is she conscious while she is on life support or not (one of those pesky DETAILS I know).
If the chances for my mother’s survival were near zero I would most likely pull the plug. Not because I care about holding onto the money per se, but because if it would ruin my family financially I know my mother would not want that to happen over a slim chance of her survival. My mother and I have discussed these things many times- there are things worse than death. Losing your pride and being a detriment to your family are all good enough reasons not to hold on. We all have to die at some point so why delay the inevitable if it means hurting the ones you love? If my mother was conscious and suffering I would simply ask her what she wanted. If she wasn’t conscious it isn’t clear she would be suffering or “leading” a miserable life.
Now, answer mine. The life of your current born child or your unborn child? You have to choose one and give a reason.