Pat Robertson Should Be Assassinated

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Clark Call wrote:

Yeah, just like a dirty liberal reading the NY times.

More tinfoil consipracy stuff? Jeez, I bet you believe the kooky theories aboute shady dealings between Bush and Diebold…not to mention what happened in Florida in 2000 with all that talk about blacks being prevented from v

So what?? It’s none of our business. They have the right to live and elect their leaders without outside interference. But hey, we have had such great success installing military regimes in South Maerica that you and your fundie friend Robertson may be on to something. Maybe a class act like Pinochet is in order for the good people of Venezuela. That’ll learn em good

BOTTIME LINE

From Wilkepedia: The recall vote was held on August 15, 2004. Record numbers of voters turned out, and polling hours were extended by at least eight hours. 59.25% of the vote was against the recall, for Ch?vez remaining in office. Election observers Jimmy Carter of the Carter Center and Organization of American States Secretary General Cesar Gaviria endorsed the results of Venezuela’s recall referendum

[/quote]

You know, I usually try to avoid getting down in the mud with the swine and wallowing around, I don’t have time to waste with infantile arguments that have been cherrypicked from Mao’s Little Red Handbook. It’s just that I have very strong opinions concerning Venezuela and the spread of communism that is taking place there.

Ok, for the last time, Jimmy Carter, he is the worst president we have ever had in this country. I have made it a point to be on the opposite side of every position this man ever took. It has served me quite well.

I am glad that you mentioned Pinochet, I think Venezuela could use a similar leader at this point in time. He killed lots of communists and socialists, thats good in my book. The guy rolled tanks up onto the lawn of the presidential palace and blasted the communist Salvador Allende. Sending him to meet his maker. Were the methods harsh, sure, but he saved that country. If you know your current events, you know that Chile is the most economically stable and prosperous country in South America. With that being said, I bid you guys adieu. I can’t waste any more time on stupid people, I have money to make, life to enjoy and hopefully, communists to kill.

82

[quote]Floortom wrote:
…

BOTTIME LINE

From Wilkepedia: The recall vote was held on August 15, 2004. Record numbers of voters turned out, and polling hours were extended by at least eight hours. 59.25% of the vote was against the recall, for Ch?vez remaining in office. Election observers Jimmy Carter of the Carter Center and Organization of American States Secretary General Cesar Gaviria endorsed the results of Venezuela’s recall referendum

[/quote]

Just as an FYI, wikipedia is a particularly bad source of information on items that are political or disputed. Given its “open source” nature, its easily manipulable based on political biases of whoever decides to contribute. And given the contributors are anonymous, you know even less about them than you would the author of a newspaper article.

83

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Floortom wrote:
…

BOTTIME LINE

From Wilkepedia: The recall vote was held on August 15, 2004. Record numbers of voters turned out, and polling hours were extended by at least eight hours. 59.25% of the vote was against the recall, for Ch?vez remaining in office. Election observers Jimmy Carter of the Carter Center and Organization of American States Secretary General Cesar Gaviria endorsed the results of Venezuela’s recall referendum

Just as an FYI, wikipedia is a particularly bad source of information on items that are political or disputed. Given its “open source” nature, its easily manipulable based on political biases of whoever decides to contribute. And given the contributors are anonymous, you know even less about them than you would the author of a newspaper article.
[/quote]

Those are all publicly available facts. Furthermore, neither of those groups were Chavez’s patsies. If you recall, they were very close to being expelled a few days before the elections due to disagreements between Venezuelan elections officials and the international observers. Venezuela eventually gave in to the strict demands.

Awwwww…the little wannabe murderous fascist is so cute.This must be the glorious “freedom” you want to spread around the world so generously!! Commies abound!! What are you doing wasting time–hurry up and get murdering lest you be a filthy communist appeaser!!

84

[quote]Clark Call wrote:
Floortom wrote:
Clark Call wrote:

Yeah, just like a dirty liberal reading the NY times.

More tinfoil consipracy stuff? Jeez, I bet you believe the kooky theories aboute shady dealings between Bush and Diebold…not to mention what happened in Florida in 2000 with all that talk about blacks being prevented from v

So what?? It’s none of our business. They have the right to live and elect their leaders without outside interference. But hey, we have had such great success installing military regimes in South Maerica that you and your fundie friend Robertson may be on to something. Maybe a class act like Pinochet is in order for the good people of Venezuela. That’ll learn em good

BOTTIME LINE

From Wilkepedia: The recall vote was held on August 15, 2004. Record numbers of voters turned out, and polling hours were extended by at least eight hours. 59.25% of the vote was against the recall, for Ch?vez remaining in office. Election observers Jimmy Carter of the Carter Center and Organization of American States Secretary General Cesar Gaviria endorsed the results of Venezuela’s recall referendum

You know, I usually try to avoid getting down in the mud with the swine and wallowing around, I don’t have time to waste with infantile arguments that have been cherrypicked from Mao’s Little Red Handbook. It’s just that I have very strong opinions concerning Venezuela and the spread of communism that is taking place there.

Ok, for the last time, Jimmy Carter, he is the worst president we have ever had in this country. I have made it a point to be on the opposite side of every position this man ever took. It has served me quite well.

I am glad that you mentioned Pinochet, I think Venezuela could use a similar leader at this point in time. He killed lots of communists and socialists, thats good in my book. The guy rolled tanks up onto the lawn of the presidential palace and blasted the communist Salvador Allende. Sending him to meet his maker. Were the methods harsh, sure, but he saved that country. If you know your current events, you know that Chile is the most economically stable and prosperous country in South America. With that being said, I bid you guys adieu. I can’t waste any more time on stupid people, I have money to make, life to enjoy and hopefully, communists to kill.[/quote]

You’ve made yourself clear. Communism is evil, and democratically elected socialist leaders should be murdered and replaced with dictators with pro-american beliefs. Sovereignty and democracy are meaningless in the face of american interests. No need for you to say any more.

85

[quote]snipeout wrote:
I think Clark makes a great point. Venezuela is in economic turmoil, and their leader is equally comparable to an unarmed hussein. If you asked an Iraqi what he thought of hussein before his capture they would all say they love him, this was out of fear for being reported and having his whole family blood line disappear. People in Iraq still fear him and his DEAD sons for all the attrocities committed. My closest friend is Cuban, his parents fled cuba in the 60’s. They still get to visit once a year for a few weeks. By their accounts it is a horrible place where people live in fear of castro and his army, yet proclaim love for fidel out of FEAR. Chavez is an avid supporter and friend of castro. Anyways my whole point is that people proclaim love of vicious leaders out of fear, just as they did in communist soviet union and east germany. Any bad mouthing of the mother country was met by a visit from the KGB and secret police. [/quote]

Refer to “the real Cuba thread”. I’m not saying that your friend is a bad guy, or his family did anything wrong, but the information provided by Cuban expatriates is stongly biased. Of course his family and all their Cuban friends are going to be anti-Castro, or they probably wouldn’t have left. I’m not saying that what they tell you isn’t true, because a lot of horrible things go on in Cuba, it’s just not the whole story. That being said, Chavez is not Castro. After being kidnapped and released, Chavez let the kidnappers go. What are the odds of Castro (or Bush, for that matter) doing the same? And comparing Chavez to Hussein is just too far fetched for me.

86

[quote]Clark Call wrote:

Why are there so many communists/fascists in America, it is starting to make me sick. If you are in such admiration of what these dictators provide for their people, move to Venezuela or North Korea or Iran. Get the hell out of the United States.
[/quote]

First, there’s that old first amendment. Your position is unconstitutional, and that’s all there is to it. Secondly, your arrogance prevents you from realizing that other people may actually not be american =O

But yor family fled when the soviets came, what do you know about what soviet life or technology was like? Justify the numbers you posted (hint: you can’t, they are BS)

[quote]
You want to defend Castro and Chavez, move to their contries, enjoy the lifestyle that their economic systems provide. Quit insulting our system of government and our international policy. My grandparents fled communism when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia because they knew what that type of government was going to bring. They most likely would have been killed in some gulag because they were well educated business people. [/quote]

I was a Soviet citizen, and still am a Cuban citizen. Guess what, everyone in my family is well educated. Believe it or not, the USSR had an incredible education system, which both of my parents believe is superior to the North American model. But the fact that you are calling the USSR communist tells me you don’t know what the word means. Maybe you should pick up an old economics book, and do a bit of learning. The USSR’s economic model fits no description other than state-capitalism (hint: communism and capitalism are mutually exclusive).

[quote]
I am glad that we as Americans have a strong history of killing communists and fascists, it’s what makes us a great nation. We don’t put up with that garbage.[/quote]

You believe murdering people who disagree with you is what makes America great?

87

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Isolationism is different from being involved in the international arena but looking out for U.S. interests first and foremost. The cranky isolationists of the late 19th and early 20th century just wanted to pull back U.S.troops from any and all international commitments, treaties or obligations – basically a “fortress America” type outlook, but really one that was wary of getting pulled into wars among European powers. They specifically didn’t like TR’s empire building or Wilson’s WWI involvement, and did fight against the idea of involving the U.S. in yet another “European conflict,” which is how they viewed WWII at the beginning.

Today most Republicans – especially those scary Neo-cons who are secretly part of the New World Order – aren’t isolationist at all. In fact, they generally favor projection of power and think of the U.S. as a global cop, something the isolationists of the previous era would have disagreed with most vehemently.[/quote]

That is true. You are technically very correct. But I believe you got that I was using the word “isolationist” not in the precise term you and – let’s give thunder the benefit of the doubt – thunderbolt were, but rather in the more generic meaning. There was indeed a shift in the way the GOP perceives as being the best to guarantee isolation – you sometimes need to go out to protect your cave – but that doesn’t mean that the underlying philosophy of being lonely (“going at it alone”) is not still there.

Basically, if you’re not a team player, you’ll be isolated very quickly. I’m not saying you need to be in the middle of the pack – you can be a leader but you need to be able to convince people to play with you. Or you’ll be… isolated. Which is what the US is right now – extremely isolated politically.

If the results – that de facto isolation – don’t speak for themselves, what will?

[quote]This is a whole different conversation. What I read you as saying is that essentially it doesn’t matter how horrible a dictator is in his own country – no matter how large that country is – provided he can’t project that awfulness outside his own borders.

I would differ in my assessment, at least in the humanitarian analysis. In the U.S. interests analysis, that may be a very good point (though of course we thought Saddam was stronger than he turned out to be – both times).[/quote]

Exactly. You got it right – that’s exactly what I wanted to say. And I find what you describe to be a profound contradiction that puzzles me. Isn’t the right wing supposed to focus on purely the US interests and leave humanitarian endeavors to the left?

How Republicans are behaving today is like forcing an old lady to cross the road when she really doesn’t want to – just because they think she should, even though it brings them no real tangible benefit.

As an Economist, I’m all for tangible benefits.

This was fundamentally different from WWII – the US’s interest was clearly at stake, and FDR – a true left-wing President if there was ever one – should have been allowed to do what he knew was the right [sic] thing to do.

88

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
You believe murdering people who disagree with you is what makes America great?
[/quote]

Of course he does. As, unfortunately, do a lot of Americans.

This is the country that made hypocrisy an art: we have beautiful pieces – I’d call them even uniquely brilliant pieces of the art of being human – like the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. We call ourselves a Democracy. However, we have a history of persecuting and murdering people that don’t agree with us or are generally different. Not only outside the US but also inside.

It’s as simple as this: for them, anything that is different must be exterminated.

Professor X made a comment on another thread I absolutely subscribe to: I actually prefer people that have the balls to come out and admit they do believe in murdering people that are different (or think different) to people who also think that but refuse to admit it.

Hypocrisy is the worst form of cowardice.

And, by the way, kudos for your guts too. Many of the things you have said, albeit true, are very hard to say. Thank you.

Namely, I can subscribe to your comment that indeed the USSR had an economic and political system that is better described as Totalitarian State Capitalism. Not that it really matters, as you might agree.

89

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:

But yor family fled when the soviets came, what do you know about what soviet life or technology was like? Justify the numbers you posted (hint: you can’t, they are BS)

[/quote]

What is a bolshevik doing writing op-ed pieces for Pravda on T-Nation? Seriously, if communism were so great, why is it that the system didn’t work as purported. Sure, you can spout on about how the Soviet Union wasn’t a true communist society, I am fully aware of that, a true communism has rarely been seen outside of the kibbutzes in Israel. So don’t argue along those lines Schmendrick.

As far as the reported numbers, sure, “Black Book of Communism” written by Stephane Courtouis, Jean-Louis Panne and others who experienced the “real” communism. The numbers are contained their in and are the result of over 20 years of economic and sociological studes performed by the aforementioned authors. So about the numbers, Hint: Learn how to read, bolshevik, did they teach that in Soviet Union or did you miss the class because you were in the Gulag?

90

[quote]hspder wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:

This is the country that made hypocrisy an art: we have beautiful pieces – I’d call them even uniquely brilliant pieces of the art of being human – like the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. We call ourselves a Democracy. However, we have a history of persecuting and murdering people that don’t agree with us or are generally different. Not only outside the US but also inside.

It’s as simple as this: for them, anything that is different must be exterminated.

Professor X made a comment on another thread I absolutely subscribe to: I actually prefer people that have the balls to come out and admit they do believe in murdering people that are different (or think different) to people who also think that but refuse to admit it.

Hypocrisy is the worst form of cowardice.

And, by the way, kudos for your guts too. Many of the things you have said, albeit true, are very hard to say. Thank you.

Namely, I can subscribe to your comment that indeed the USSR had an economic and political system that is better described as Totalitarian State Capitalism. Not that it really matters, as you might agree.
[/quote]

Look at you guys, with your mental masturbation and all. Sitting around an quiblling about the wording that pertains to the most destructive ideology ever wrought upon mankind. “Was it a communism, ooh, I don’t know, I like Totalitarian State Capitalism, that sounds like it could trick about half of the world into thinking we are semi-civilized.” Fools you are, total fools.

Kind of reminds me of the DDR, or Deutsche Democratic Republic, you would think those guys were sitting around reading "Wealth of Nations and calling for federalism. You guys would claim that teh STASI never existed, it was sunshine and lollipops for those comrades. It’s all a smoke screen put up by liars such as yourselves.

Now the suggestion that I do a little more study on the economy of the old USSR. I really think I have had enough, I can’t take another book that highlights the delights of the ramapant innefficiency and bread lines that plagued those poor people. After awhile it’s really just the same old story.

Oh, I like this, “hypocrisy is the worst form of cowardice”, wow, that was deep. Actually the worst form of cowardice is accepting evil as good and claiming good to be evil. You seem to be doing that quite well.

91

thank you clark call for demonstrating that it is possible to be so anti-communist that you stand against everything America stands for. Not the fat people in shopping malls, the idea of freedom.

I also really believe you do not go far enough. We should not only kill everyone disagreeing, we should also torture them and have public trials where they could confess the error of their ways before being executed. Um, wait a minute…

A lot of europeans don?t like Bush. Is it ok if we go after him? After all, if the gloves come off, they come off for everyone.

92

[quote]vroom wrote:

Rainjack, are you trying to take Zeb’s title as the chief mischaracterizer away from him? Surely you don’t want to do that![/quote]

More name calling by vroom…(yawn).

93

Zeb, if I were to call you a name, you’d know it… grow up already.

94

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, if I were to call you a name, you’d know it… grow up already.[/quote]

You call me “Chief Mischaracterizer” then accuse me of being immature when I point it out?

Yes vroom the best defense is a good offense, but this is ridiculous!

95

…maybe you two should get a room?.. there?s definitely some chemistry there… :slight_smile:

96

Clark Call is right. Communism is evil and should be resisted.

The level of resistance should be based on the level of the threat.

You can argue assassination is not the best solution to get rid of communists, but as soon as you start arguing the merits of communism you lose all credibility.

97

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Clark Call is right. Communism is evil and should be resisted.

The level of resistance should be based on the level of the threat.

You can argue assassination is not the best solution to get rid of communists, but as soon as you start arguing the merits of communism you lose all credibility.[/quote]

I don?t really care what someone believes in, but as soon as someone is convinced that he knows how everybody should live and is willing to kill people if they don?t bow down before his superior wisdom, he has crossed the line.

If that someone is a fascist, a communist or a fanatic muslim really doesn?t matter to me.

I think clark call has crossed that line and if he wonders why there are so many fascists in America, he only has to look into a mirror.

98

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Clark Call is right. Communism is evil and should be resisted.

The level of resistance should be based on the level of the threat.

You can argue assassination is not the best solution to get rid of communists, but as soon as you start arguing the merits of communism you lose all credibility.[/quote]

I’d like to suggest you pro-communist idealists read “The Sword & the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive” by Christopher Andrew & Vasili Mitrokhin. It highlights some of the delightful USSR foriegn policy.

99

[quote]orion wrote:
…
If that someone is a fascist, a communist or a fanatic muslim really doesn?t matter to me.

…
[/quote]

It matters to me. All of these ideologies are evil. All should be resisted.

100

Here is what you guys don’t get, to the USSR YOU were evil. It was empirialismthat had to be resisted. As many books as you guys have on the superiority of your system, and the evil of the other, the USSR had just as many. I’m sorry to offend you, but they were your counterparts.

Now, I am not going to talk about how great the USSR was, because it wasn’t. It certainly did have aspects that were better than the US, but there were major problems (the racism of the Russian people being a major one). Then again, I certainly wouldn’t consider the US in the same period as “great” either. Considering the civil rights abuses, the witch hunts, and the foreign policy that went on in the US, you have to be pretty bold to start criticizing another country. The difference is no one in the US is going to talk about these things. And if they, no one would want to listen.

Zap, communism is a system where the goal of production is to satisfy human need rather than to generate wealth. There is nothing inherently evil (or “good” for that matter) about it. It is an economic system, not a political one.

Raving, murderous, freedom loving fascist: calling me bolshevik? Yeah, being a member of the majority sucks… Don’t give me a book to read, I want the primary source. I know the numbers are BS, because this is not the first time I’ve had this argument. To save a lot of time, I’ll just say it now. The numbers are an exageration. Just like the hippies exagerate the number of civilian casualties in the current war, and the bush-lovers play it down. I know it’s hard to understand, but sometimes people have a bias, and that bias makes them skew their work to reflect what they want. If you spent as much time reading pro-USSR propaganda as you spent reading anti-USSR propaganda, you’d be singing a different tune. Read both, the truth is in between. Ultimately, there isn’t much you can say. My mother has lived under Stalin, and I have lived under Castro. At times like this, you should listen rather than talk.

But hey, I heard there were some people down the street that don’t realize coke is superior to pepsi, why don’t you go murder them? That is what makes america great, afer all.