Pastor Dennis Terry and Santorum

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I gotta go will finish this up later.[/quote]

Just please don’t jerk us around on this. If you say they don’t have inalienable rights, then they didn’t. No atrocity was committed. Society at the time didn’t grant as much. And, as you said, a society determines if ‘rights’ exist, and for who. If you’re attempting to project your own ideals backwards onto a society you weren’t part of, stop. You’re now portraying rights as timeless and independent of human whim and society. That’s not your position, so lets keep it consistent.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m still waiting for you to address this: If they were truly against slavery WHY did they own slaves themselves? Most of them did.[/quote]

For the economics of it.
[/quote]

Really? You’re defending why they PERSONALLY had slaves on the basis of it being economical?

Oh by the way I sleep with prostitutes because it’s cheaper than dating. Oh by the way I’m against prostitution.[/quote]

You asked why they had slaves…

Your zealotry is showing, again.
[/quote]

A little mistranslation here.

If they were truly against slavery, they would not have owned slaves personally in favor of personal economic gain.
[/quote]

Humanity is quite capable of not living up to it’s own ideals, living in tension with them, as they continue to practice…a practice.
[/quote]

I agree.

But We’re talking about a horrible atrocity, not something basic or trivial. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but didn’t you say that rights are dependent on the whim of a society? That society didn’t give slaves rights, so no atrocity could’ve been committed. It wasn’t until society changed it’s mind that slavery was an atrocity. And, it will only remain an atrocity today so long as it decides it should be.
[/quote]

???

Just because that specific society does not give certain people the right to freedom doesn’t make it any less an atrocity.

[/quote]

You’re falling off your earlier statement. You said slaves don’t have inalienable rights. So if they don’t have rights, no atrocity.
[/quote]

No.

Rights and Freedoms are granted by society but that doesn’t change whether something is moral or not.
[/quote]

So good and evil are timeless, and independent of human society…

This probably deserves to go into Hijack Haven, but oh well.

The Founders inherited slavery, they didn’t invent it. If you actually read a number of founding-era documents from the prominent men who participated in the founding, they struggle with this question - we have it, it’s been around since time immemorial, how do you get ride of it? How do we do deal with it? It was deeply entrenched in much the culture, and even if you were a rabid abolitionist, there was no easy solution to actually ending the practice. Ending the prractice meant enormous shifts in economy, civil and political rights, logistical problems, etc.

And enough of the nonsense - it’s not as though when the Founders “founded” the nation (which pre-dates the Constitution, by the way), they instituted law that ended history and solved all of mankind’s problems. The Founding was the birth of a constitutional republic built on ordered liberty, and there was no idiotic belief at the time that they had answers to all of humanity’s problems in fell swoop. What was great - and indeed, almost miraculous - was that they founded the nation and so therefore set off the process by which to give life to the protections of Natural Law.

Don’t forget, prior to the founding of the US, most non-slaves weren’t free - not in the sense that we understand it - that is why we had the Revolution in the first place. Once we established (somewhat precariously) the government by which colonists would be free to self-govern, then we could begin the process of approaching the slavery question…but not before.

This buffoonery that we should have simply “made uur-body free!” at the Founding is just that - buffoonery.

Also, the US is in many senses a Christian nation - when the Constitution was ratified, it “formed” a new nation by modifying the old one, but did not modify the place of religion among the populace, and mainly, the states. The Constitution did not declare the US to be a Christian nation in name, but the Constitution didn’t unmake the architecture of the state-church relationship that existed at the state level. If the US was intended to be a “secular” country, the Founders would have used the Constitution to dismantle the marriage between church and state at the state level (such as state support for a church). They didn’t.

But, it’s also clear the Founder had no intention of the nation being governed by outright Christian source of rules. The Founders knew well of the sectarian squabbles and intentionally devised some version of a wall between church and state, as much to protect the church as the state.

In short, the Founders weren’t secularists and had no vision of secular government*, but they did prefer that much of that debate be handled at the more local levels of government out of the (well founded) fear that were the levers of power at the federal level available for competition among the various sects of Christianity, there would be eternal internecine struggle over that control, which would doom the United States to the fate of European countries.

*And by the way, what is it with the “I contend…” arguments these days? There seems to be no shortage of “I contend [ridiculous, unsupported argument]” statements without any sense of irony that just because you say “I contend” doesn’t make an unsupported argument a decent one.

And if we recognize timeless and independent moral actions and thoughts in our interactions and relationships with others, we’re recognizing value inherent to them as others. Inalienable rights.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No they weren’t all Christians. Didn’t we already go over this?

[/quote]

In the context in which I used it, “literally all” means almost all. It’s a figure of speech.

I never said they intended to do so. It’s not the role of the constitution to do so.

Er…it already was a Christian nation. And there is no need to mention Jesus in the constitution. That’s not its purpose.

[quote]

Even after the fact there were several attempts to put Jesus into the Constitution and it failed.[/quote]

I know. Like I said, that’s not the purpose of the Constitution. You don’t seem to know so I’ll explain it.

The constitution and bill of rights are simple. They grant limited, specific and enumerated powers to Congress and everything else to the states and people(10th). Specific, enumerated powers to the executive, the structure of the judiciary is described and its own specific powers enumerated(and slightly modified by the 11th).

The 1st protects freedom of speech, assembly, freedom of religion and bars the establishment of a state religion by Congress. Now why would they need to mention Jesus there?

2nd - you don’t like that one I’m sure. The right to keep and bear arms.

3rd - No soldiers in your house.

4th - to invade privacy, search and seizure need probable cause

5th - capital crimes get a jury, don’t have to be a witness against yourself, get due process, government can’t take your stuff without compensation.

6th - Legal stuff

7th - Legal stuff

8th - Legal stuff, and no cruel or unusual punishment(that means like being hung, drawn and quartered or something. Doesn’t mean having someone pour some water on your face.)

9th - Important one. The enumerated rights in the constitution cannot be ‘construed to deny or disparage’ other rights retained by the people.

10th - Very important one. See above.

The whole purpose of this was to secure their unalienable rights, endowed by their creator amongst which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You see raj, ‘to secure these rights, governments are instituted amongst men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.’

There you have it.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m still waiting for you to address this: If they were truly against slavery WHY did they own slaves themselves? Most of them did.[/quote]

For the economics of it.
[/quote]

Really? You’re defending why they PERSONALLY had slaves on the basis of it being economical?

Oh by the way I sleep with prostitutes because it’s cheaper than dating. Oh by the way I’m against prostitution.[/quote]

You asked why they had slaves…

Your zealotry is showing, again.
[/quote]

A little mistranslation here.

If they were truly against slavery, they would not have owned slaves personally in favor of personal economic gain.
[/quote]

Humanity is quite capable of not living up to it’s own ideals, living in tension with them, as they continue to practice…a practice.
[/quote]

I agree.

But We’re talking about a horrible atrocity, not something basic or trivial. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but didn’t you say that rights are dependent on the whim of a society? That society didn’t give slaves rights, so no atrocity could’ve been committed. It wasn’t until society changed it’s mind that slavery was an atrocity. And, it will only remain an atrocity today so long as it decides it should be.
[/quote]

ZING!

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

ZING![/quote]

Seconded. The secularist believes (and really can’t believe anything else) that “rights” are whatever a given society says they are, even ones considered fundamental. So, if you can get a good old fashioned majority to say “black people are slaves”, there is nothing inherently wrong with that, by the lights of “secularism”.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

*And by the way, what is it with the “I contend…” arguments these days? There seems to be no shortage of “I contend [ridiculous, unsupported argument]” statements without any sense of irony that just because you say “I contend” doesn’t make an unsupported argument a decent one.[/quote]

Prefixing a ridiculous, unsupported argument with “I contend” gives it the illusion of more substance and cogency. That’s my contention anyhow.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
We’re winning, also.[/quote]

I am not sure where you got this graph from, but I highly doubt it was Gallup. First, there is no way that gallup would present their data this way. Why would they lump the “legal in a few cases” in with “illegal in all cases?” If I had to guess, I would say that that graph was produced by a third party in order do deceive others into thinking that anti-abortionists are “winning.” In fact, I went to Gallup’s website and that graph does not match up with their data at all. In fact, gallup seems to only have three categories: Legal in all circumstances, illegal in all circumstances, and legal in some cases. They do not have a distinction between “a few” and “most.” Here is a link to the website with their actual data from 1975 to the present. It shows that the “illegal in all cases” currently is about 20%, which is almost exactly what it was in 1975. There has been a slight increase in the percentage of supporters in the past few years (from a local minimum of 15% in 2006), but not outside of the margin of error for this poll, so there is no possible way to honestly say that anti-abortion is on the rise.

Here is where I got my data from:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
I am not sure where you got this graph from, but I highly doubt it was Gallup.[/quote]

From the link to gallup I provided.

Heh, the graph IS from gallup.

Third graph down…

If it was up to the public, according to gallup, abortion would only legal in a few circumstances.

[quote]Here is where I got my data from:

Now add up the illegal under all, and legal in only in a few, and you have the gallup graph I produced.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
I am not sure where you got this graph from, but I highly doubt it was Gallup.[/quote]

From the link to gallup I provided.

Heh, the graph IS from gallup.

Third graph down…

If it was up to the public, according to gallup, abortion would only legal in a few circumstances.

[quote]Here is where I got my data from:

Now add up the illegal under all, and legal in only in a few, and you have the gallup graph I produced.
[/quote]

I didn’t see a link provided, so I apologize. Actually, that data is also on the link I provided, just not in graph form. I wonder why they need two different pages on the topic? It is still a very misleading graph. In order to make the claim that anti-abortionists are “winning,” the percentage of people who think it should be illegal in all cases needs to be going up, which it isn’t (not outside the margins of error anyway). This data really just shows that the majority of the population is still in favor of at least limited abortion rights. None of the categories have percentages that have changed significantly outside of the margin of error, except i the early 90’s.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
I am not sure where you got this graph from, but I highly doubt it was Gallup.[/quote]

From the link to gallup I provided.

Heh, the graph IS from gallup.

Third graph down…

If it was up to the public, according to gallup, abortion would only legal in a few circumstances.

[quote]Here is where I got my data from:

Now add up the illegal under all, and legal in only in a few, and you have the gallup graph I produced.
[/quote]

I didn’t see a link provided, so I apologize. Actually, that data is also on the link I provided, just not in graph form. I wonder why they need two different pages on the topic? It is still a very misleading graph. In order to make the claim that anti-abortionists are “winning,” the percentage of people who think it should be illegal in all cases needs to be going up, which it isn’t (not outside the margins of error anyway). This data really just shows that the majority of the population is still in favor of at least limited abortion rights. None of the categories have percentages that have changed significantly outside of the margin of error, except i the early 90’s.[/quote]

I think that abortions under no, or only under a FEW, circumstances is miles away from the current ‘right’ to elective abortion nearly on demand. That is, a far cry from the post conception contraception that it is now.

And yeah, taking a look, the link wasn’t with the graph. I could’ve sworn I added a link. I did link to it again a few posts down. But I’m pretty certain I had linked to with the graph. Don’t know.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I think that abortions under no, or only under a FEW, circumstances is miles away from the current ‘right’ to elective abortion nearly on demand. That is, a far cry from the post conception contraception that it is now.
[/quote]

I will definitely agree that there needs to be limitations placed on when abortions can be obtained.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Not at all. But I think if someone’s going to criticize and get very upset at Santorum then they’d better DAMN WELL get upset at pastor Wright and Obama for the same thing. Otherwise it’s just plain double standard partisanship.

Raj as I recall was a pretty big defender of Obama with that whole pastor thing. He’s swinging a mighty big hypocritical club here when he jumped up to defend Obama.
[/quote]

I wasn’t getting upset, I felt the same way about Obama and the Rev Wright.

Who I voted for was questions immediately in this thread (which I think is pretty childish)[/quote]

Oh I didn’t mean YOU were getting upset. I meant every other person holding this up and screaming about how inappropriate it is. It was a general statement on the hypocrisy being thrown about.

I didn’t question who you voted for. I never even mentioned it…?[/quote]

Who was screaming about this?

Really…who were the people who were “screaming?”[/quote]

Oh for crying out loud. A little bit of hyperbole and you’re gonna call me out on that or what? This is PWI for crying out loud! I could call you out on every time you posted a bit of hyperbole but it would take too long. That’s just lame. Besides which there are people outside of the internet who seem up in arms about this. In real everyday life. They might be leftists, but they can also be loud.

At any rate (mild) hyperbole is–or should be–self explanatory in context of the argument at hand and the hypocrisy of people criticizing Santorum but not Obama for something like this.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Not at all. But I think if someone’s going to criticize and get very upset at Santorum then they’d better DAMN WELL get upset at pastor Wright and Obama for the same thing. Otherwise it’s just plain double standard partisanship.

Raj as I recall was a pretty big defender of Obama with that whole pastor thing. He’s swinging a mighty big hypocritical club here when he jumped up to defend Obama.
[/quote]

I wasn’t getting upset, I felt the same way about Obama and the Rev Wright.

Who I voted for was questions immediately in this thread (which I think is pretty childish)[/quote]

Oh I didn’t mean YOU were getting upset. I meant every other person holding this up and screaming about how inappropriate it is. It was a general statement on the hypocrisy being thrown about.

I didn’t question who you voted for. I never even mentioned it…?[/quote]

Who was screaming about this?

Really…who were the people who were “screaming?”[/quote]

Oh for crying out loud. A little bit of hyperbole and you’re gonna call me out on that or what? This is PWI for crying out loud! I could call you out on every time you posted a bit of hyperbole but it would take too long. That’s just lame. Besides which there are people outside of the internet who seem up in arms about this. In real everyday life. They might be leftists, but they can also be loud.

At any rate (mild) hyperbole is–or should be–self explanatory in context of the argument at hand and the hypocrisy of people criticizing Santorum but not Obama for something like this.[/quote]

You’ve over reacted to this just as you did in the post that quoted above. But, as long as YOU brought it up why don’t you refer to the times that I’ve used hyperbole. You don’t have to site everyone as you said it would take too long. So just give me a handful. Make sure that you’re specific…as long as YOU brought it up.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Not at all. But I think if someone’s going to criticize and get very upset at Santorum then they’d better DAMN WELL get upset at pastor Wright and Obama for the same thing. Otherwise it’s just plain double standard partisanship.

Raj as I recall was a pretty big defender of Obama with that whole pastor thing. He’s swinging a mighty big hypocritical club here when he jumped up to defend Obama.
[/quote]

I wasn’t getting upset, I felt the same way about Obama and the Rev Wright.

Who I voted for was questions immediately in this thread (which I think is pretty childish)[/quote]

Oh I didn’t mean YOU were getting upset. I meant every other person holding this up and screaming about how inappropriate it is. It was a general statement on the hypocrisy being thrown about.

I didn’t question who you voted for. I never even mentioned it…?[/quote]

Who was screaming about this?

Really…who were the people who were “screaming?”[/quote]

Oh for crying out loud. A little bit of hyperbole and you’re gonna call me out on that or what? This is PWI for crying out loud! I could call you out on every time you posted a bit of hyperbole but it would take too long. That’s just lame. Besides which there are people outside of the internet who seem up in arms about this. In real everyday life. They might be leftists, but they can also be loud.

At any rate (mild) hyperbole is–or should be–self explanatory in context of the argument at hand and the hypocrisy of people criticizing Santorum but not Obama for something like this.[/quote]

You’ve over reacted to this just as you did in the post that quoted above. But, as long as YOU brought it up why don’t you refer to the times that I’ve used hyperbole. You don’t have to site everyone as you said it would take too long. So just give me a handful. Make sure that you’re specific…as long as YOU brought it up.

[/quote]

I’ll make you a deal. I’m not going to go surfing all the back threads for it. But I will be sure to bring it up in the future everytime I read something that’s similar. Which I am sure you’re going to argue me on, even though it is completely irrelevant to the point that you would be making in your post (similar to what you just did here, because I know you agree with my overall point wrt Wright/Obama/Terry/Santorum and you’re just picking at things).

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ZEB wrote:
… you’re just picking at things. [/quote]

Now why would I be doing that?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ZEB wrote:
… you’re just picking at things. [/quote]

Now why would I be doing that?[/quote]

since I am off your Christmas card list , it is because you are a DICK :slight_smile:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ZEB wrote:
… you’re just picking at things. [/quote]

Now why would I be doing that?[/quote]

since I am off your Christmas card list , it is because you are a DICK :slight_smile:

[/quote]

HEY…that’s no way to get back on Pit, ha ha.

Have a good night my friend.