Paris Attacks

[quote]LoRez wrote:
So this whole thing has gotten me a bit confused. I’m having trouble making sense of some things.

I can understand the idea of wanting to [re]establish an Islamic state, or at least, an Arab Islamic state. A lot of Arabia has been messed with by external forces for a very long time; from Turkish Ottoman rule, to British and French colonial rule, to the “false” governments of the last 80 or so years. We have this genuinely organic development of a nation-state, based on an ideology, and they’re willing to fight to the death for it. That’s happened a few times in history. I kind of get it.

If they want to try this grand experiment of a pure islamic state, and try and make it work in the modern world, and they figure out a way to coexist with the rest of the world, I’m pretty ok with that. (Now, obviously the human rights and women’s rights issues I’m less happy about, but I vary between the view of “that’s none of our business” at one end, and at the other end, psy-ops intervention to incite internal reform, once some things have stabilized.)

What I actually have a problem with is this whole terrorist contingent. That doesn’t seem to fit well into the narrative. There’s obviously a military contingent focused on expanding and defending their territorial claims, and I understand that, but these terrorist attacks all seem to work against that goal.

And perhaps the military leadership is trying to get control over that. (I mean, pissing off the EU, Russia, China and the US within a few weeks of each other is not exactly the best foreign policy. Kind of undermines their stated goals to be a nation-state.)

On the other hand, if they’re truly wanting to play by 7th century rules – 20th century tactics like the threat of destruction don’t seem to be making a dent – it seems like the only way they’ll concede defeat is by being conquered. A genuine invasion, occupation, and assimilation by some foreign power that intends to maintain the territory. Not someone who wants to create a transitional government, but someone willing to actually rule the territory and invest in infrastructure.

The chances of any European State or the US making a return to colonialism seems pretty slim, but there’s one way for that to happen. A corporation taking that role also seems unlikely; I mean, there’s no real equivalent to the East India Company any more, and I doubt any actual nation is going to allow that to happen.

From a regional standpoint, along the invasion-line, there’s really not much for big players in the area that I like, but given the current circumstances, I wouldn’t mind something like: Saudi decides to expand territory to the Northeast, Iranian secularists revolt against Muslim (Arab-ish) rule, and Iran invades to the Southwest, and the two of them somehow just figure it out. Obviously unrealistic.

But really, at the most basic level, I’m ok with any direction that leads toward building and maintaining infrastructure, and a cessation of all the destruction. If that can happen internally, that’s even better. If that has to be externally imposed, I guess that’s what will have to happen.

Right now there seems to be minimal infrastructure (left) to begin with, and it seems like many nations are hell-bent on destroying that. I just don’t see how that’s going to leave the situation any better.

I don’t have any answers. Just trying to make sense of some things.[/quote]

LoRez, regarding some things that Bismark copied and pasted, there does seem to be some credence that their goal is for Islam and the Crusaders (everyone else) to come to a head, and whoever wins has God on their side. It’s pretty fucked up.

I know it’s cracked but apparently this guy went through all of their Dabiq publications, and wrote about it, eg general trends, things that stood out.
Number 4 has what I just wrote about.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Good article.

Here’s one:

Been saying this for years:

â??‘The problem the Syrian people have with the United States is that we are suffering for five years with barrel bombs,’ one R.B.S.S. journalist said. ‘Assad has killed so many innocents, and many people have lost hope. After Assadâ??s chemical attack, when he crossed the so-called â??red line,â?? the U.S. just took the weapons. It made America look like a liar and weak.’"

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
And yet I wouldn’t quite call them European.[/quote]

Nobody cares what you would call them. They were European citizens. This argument isn’t about genetics, it’s about passports.[/quote]

Good thing you cant buy fake passports. [/quote]

It’s pretty hard to buy an entry in the social register. I’m not saying “they carried papers with them” - eight of them have been identified as EU citizens. You can’t buy all the stuff that comes up in a background check.

It also makes sense - ISIS has a large number of foreign fighters among them. If you plan an operation on European soil, why not send people who will have an easy time getting through the checkpoints?

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
LoRez, regarding some things that Bismark copied and pasted, there does seem to be some credence that their goal is for Islam and the Crusaders (everyone else) to come to a head, and whoever wins has God on their side. It’s pretty fucked up.

I know it’s cracked but apparently this guy went through all of their Dabiq publications, and wrote about it, eg general trends, things that stood out.
Number 4 has what I just wrote about.

[/quote]

That’s the point. Coexistance is not the long-term goal of the IS.

Let me get this straight, we ARM death cults like taliban, al-qaeda, isis for one reason or another and then we sit down asking what they want?

[quote]shorty_blitz wrote:
Let me get this straight, we ARM death cults like taliban, al-qaeda, isis for one reason or another and then we sit down asking what they want?
[/quote]

It’s a bit more complicated than that. After the USSR fell, arming batshit crazy islamic guerrilla desperadoes fell out of fashion. Not completely but for the most part. And after al qaeda, I figured we had learned our lesson about pumping money and arms into terrorists hands. But low and behold, the recent, failed attempt at arming and training the Free Syrian Army, we know now that we are still stupid enough to arm terrorists.

They may be terrorists, but their our terrorists.

The difference is, back when we armed the mujahideen, the USSR was the big enemy and there was no precedent set with respect to terrorism coming from these regions. Now we have seen that trusting anybody in that region is foolish at best. Yet, we still think we can do it and not suffer consequences.

[quote]TheCB wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone here willing to bet that a Paris type attack will not occur in the USA?[/quote]
Nope. This spike in activity tells me that these groups have somehow become emboldened. Like some newly found energy or power has invigorated them.[/quote]

I have been wondering what it could be.

For a terrorist group to brazenly attack both Russia and France within a fortnight while making videos threatening washington and new york is so fucking nuts.

Surely they have the strong backing of at least someone like Saudi Arabia to essentially pursue WW3 or else how do they possibly expect to survive? [/quote]

Or, MAYBE we simply haven’t made the progress against them that we thought we had.

Something to keep an eye on as it develops…

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
LoRez, regarding some things that Bismark copied and pasted, there does seem to be some credence that their goal is for Islam and the Crusaders (everyone else) to come to a head, and whoever wins has God on their side. It’s pretty fucked up.

I know it’s cracked but apparently this guy went through all of their Dabiq publications, and wrote about it, eg general trends, things that stood out.
Number 4 has what I just wrote about.

[/quote]

That’s the point. Coexistance is not the long-term goal of the IS.[/quote]

I’m not sure that’s a strong argument.

It’s almost literally equivalent to saying “the Bible says that only the chosen people will go to Heaven, and the rest will be destroyed, therefore coexistence is not the long-term goal of Christians.” The whole final showdown at Dabiq where “the Crusaders” are destroyed is from a statement talking about the End Times. It’s really not too far from someone looking at Revelations, reading it literally, and assuming that’s why Christians behave as they do. It’s certainly a convenient argument, but I’m not sure it’s an accurate one.

Thanks Matty for pointing me to that article. I actually wasn’t aware of Dabiq, but all the issues are available freely online.

I started reading through them. I’m only in the beginning pages of Issue 2 (of 12).

My impressions so far:

From a graphic design, layout standpoint, it’s very well put together. Very slick and polished.

From a religious argument level, it’s also very well put together. A number of the articles read like sermons, explaining certain passages of the Koran and Hadith, and using those ideas to establish legitimacy of the ISIS leadership.

In the first issue, there’s a description of the long path it’s been to even establish the caliphate, how the actions of Al Qaeda were part of that path, and even spells out some of the basic strategy taken to capture territory in Iraq and Syria. There’s a degree of transparency that I’ve never seen in the US government (or really anywhere else, but I haven’t looked too hard). It’ll be interesting to see if they keep that up in later issues.

There’s also an interesting spin on how they forcefully “recruited” groups of security forces too. The view is “they made a mistake and turned from Allah, but now that they’re on the right path, their past is forgiven”. They listed out these various groups as a point of pride, demonstrating public forgiveness.

But the most surprising part was that it seems to be written for an educated reader. I was expecting simplistic persuasion (like what we see in American media), and not expecting this degree of intelligence in the writing.

All that said, while I’m impressed with the quality, it doesn’t mean I agree with any of it.

They seem to be putting a lot of effort into

  1. persuading people that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is the rightful leader of this new caliphate
  2. persuading people to swear blind allegiance to the leadership; in the beginning of the 2nd issue, there’s an entire article focused on explaining why “freedom of choice” is wrong

Both of those seem like weaknesses that can be exploited.

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Panopticum wrote:
I’m not saying Christianity was the sweetest kid in it’s history
[/quote]

The temptation to hate muslims is strong, I get it. But we cannot. We know that pretty much all terrorism for the last 3 decades was done by muslims. The muslims have largely been silent about the problem in their religion. [/quote]

Everyone loves to cite how Christianity has been evil in the past, and that’s true. But people seem to gloss over the fact that this was in the PAST, centuries ago.

The muslims world still has that medieval world view. It’s not the religion, it’s the fact that their part of the world is still stuck in the middle ages with monarchies, no freedoms, cruel and unusual punishments; humanity needs to move forward for this ideology.
[/quote]

Which is also complete red herring by those making that argument.
When you are trying to talk terror and what is the best way to solve the problem, no one is served well by avoiding strong language just because it’s strong and hence leading to a mischaracterization of the issue itself.
If you cannot even define the issue, you have no hopes in solving it. And if you are trying to have a serious conversation about radical islamists who are terrorizing the world and the best way to defeat them and all someone can say is, “Well Christians did bad shit too!” That person isn’t trying to solve the issue, he is trying to derail the conversation from we have a terror problem whose source is radical islam to all religion is stupid and bad.
These people live in some stupid John Lennon atheist pipe dream that if all religion were destroyed, the world would be perfect. To them the problem isn’t terrorism, it’s religion.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone here willing to bet that a Paris type attack will not occur in the USA?[/quote]
Nope. This spike in activity tells me that these groups have somehow become emboldened. Like some newly found energy or power has invigorated them.[/quote]

I have been wondering what it could be.

For a terrorist group to brazenly attack both Russia and France within a fortnight while making videos threatening washington and new york is so fucking nuts.

Surely they have the strong backing of at least someone like Saudi Arabia to essentially pursue WW3 or else how do they possibly expect to survive? [/quote]

Or, MAYBE we simply haven’t made the progress against them that we thought we had.
[/quote]
Maybe? I think it’s obvious by now. If your goal is to destroy a terrorist group, but the group continues to carry out terror attacks, you are no where near your goal.

This president is not interested in defeating ISIS or anybody else for that matter. You have to remember who the real enemy is, it’s the Republicans! Watch his posture change from very stoic and measured when talking about ISIS, but he gets all fired up talking about Republicans. What an idiot.

[quote]

Something to keep an eye on as it develops…

Oh there’s lots of interesting things going on… Just not from the U.S.

China joining Russia…

Now the interesting thing is that apparently there has already been some Chinese involvement in Syria, not military action, but they have been there at some capacity.

Russia putting boots on the ground? A LOT of boots on the ground…

Now does obama think he has the remotest chance at deposing Assad now? Not a chance.

[quote]pat wrote:
This president is not interested in defeating ISIS or anybody else for that matter. You have to remember who the real enemy is, it’s the Republicans! Watch his posture change from very stoic and measured when talking about ISIS, but he gets all fired up talking about Republicans. What an idiot.
[/quote]

SPOT ON 100%. This jackass needs a teleprompter to talk about anything, expect when talking shit about the republicans, but the media/population at large are too stupid to pick up on this.

isis is not a threat to his/liberals power, it’s the gop… thus the real enemy.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone here willing to bet that a Paris type attack will not occur in the USA?[/quote]
Nope. This spike in activity tells me that these groups have somehow become emboldened. Like some newly found energy or power has invigorated them.[/quote]

I have been wondering what it could be.

For a terrorist group to brazenly attack both Russia and France within a fortnight while making videos threatening washington and new york is so fucking nuts.

Surely they have the strong backing of at least someone like Saudi Arabia to essentially pursue WW3 or else how do they possibly expect to survive? [/quote]

Or, MAYBE we simply haven’t made the progress against them that we thought we had.
[/quote]
Maybe? I think it’s obvious by now. If your goal is to destroy a terrorist group, but the group continues to carry out terror attacks, you are no where near your goal.

This president is not interested in defeating ISIS or anybody else for that matter. You have to remember who the real enemy is, it’s the Republicans! Watch his posture change from very stoic and measured when talking about ISIS, but he gets all fired up talking about Republicans. What an idiot.

[quote]

Something to keep an eye on as it develops…

Oh there’s lots of interesting things going on… Just not from the U.S.

China joining Russia…

Now the interesting thing is that apparently there has already been some Chinese involvement in Syria, not military action, but they have been there at some capacity.

Russia putting boots on the ground? A LOT of boots on the ground…

Now does obama think he has the remotest chance at deposing Assad now? Not a chance.[/quote]

From the Russia Today (owned by the Russian government) link:

"Meanwhile, an Israeli military news website, DEBKAfile, has cited military sources as saying that a Chinese aircraft carrier, the Liaoning-CV-16, has already been spotted at the Syrian port of Tartus on the Mediterranean coast. It was said to be accompanied by a guided missile cruiser. "

DEBKAfile is widely seen as an unreliable sensationalist source. Avoid it and stories that cite it like the plague. Their military and intelligence sources are almost always fabrications. Case in point - there is no evidence that China has deployed its sole aircraft carrier to Syrian territorial waters. It’s next to impossible to keep the travels of a ship the size of a skyscraper secret. If it were true, it would be front page news.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ok Bistro, for the third or fourth time, where is the Koran reference?[/quote]

Al-Baqara 2:173 reads, “He has only forbidden you carrion, blood, pig’s meat, and animals over which any name other than God’s has been invoked. But if anyone is forced to eat such things by hunger, rather than desire or excess, he commits no sin: God is most merciful and forgiving.” Shooting jihadists with pig laced ammunition or desecrating their corspes similarly would not be theologically disconcerting to them in the least. Through their ostensibly faithful acts, martyrs are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Even if they were not, forced contact with pork products would not constitute a sin, much less a damnation worthy one capable of deterring them.[/quote]

That’s kinda what I thought, namely you flat-out don’t know what you’re talking about…or the professor you’re echoing doesn’t. One or the other or probably both. The Koranic text you cited above does NOT even remotely imply that immersing a dead Muslim in pork lard is NOT desecration – which is what I mentioned to begin with.
[/quote]

Obviously it is by definition desecration. I never denied as much; in fact, I explicitly stated it multiple times. What was under discussion was whether or not it was theologically damning and thus capable of establishing deterrence. Desecration constitutes forced contact. Ergo, it wouldn’t be sinful for the lay Muslim, much less a martyr, especially so given that they are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Your “cure” isn’t pragmatic hardball; it’s counterproductive barbarism.

Apparently the Jews did it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ok Bistro, for the third or fourth time, where is the Koran reference?[/quote]

Al-Baqara 2:173 reads, “He has only forbidden you carrion, blood, pig’s meat, and animals over which any name other than God’s has been invoked. But if anyone is forced to eat such things by hunger, rather than desire or excess, he commits no sin: God is most merciful and forgiving.” Shooting jihadists with pig laced ammunition or desecrating their corspes similarly would not be theologically disconcerting to them in the least. Through their ostensibly faithful acts, martyrs are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Even if they were not, forced contact with pork products would not constitute a sin, much less a damnation worthy one capable of deterring them.[/quote]

That’s kinda what I thought, namely you flat-out don’t know what you’re talking about…or the professor you’re echoing doesn’t. One or the other or probably both. The Koranic text you cited above does NOT even remotely imply that immersing a dead Muslim in pork lard is NOT desecration – which is what I mentioned to begin with.
[/quote]

Obviously it is by definition desecration. I never denied as much; in fact, I explicitly stated it multiple times. What was under discussion was whether or not it was theologically damning and thus capable of establishing deterrence. Desecration constitutes forced contact. Ergo, it wouldn’t be sinful for the lay Muslim, much less a martyr, especially so given that they are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Your “cure” isn’t pragmatic hardball; it’s counterproductive barbarism. [/quote]

Well, for that matter there’s nothing in that text that even remotely implies it wouldn’t be a deterrent.[/quote]

It’s pretty clear that forced contact with pigs or pork products is not haram. Not haram, definitely not a credible deterrent. The vast majority of terrorism experts agree that religious terrorists are incapable of being deterred. After all, death in jihadism is rewarded with eternal paradise. Hell, the Qur’an makes it explicitly clear that suicide is a mortal sin. That certainly didn’t deter 19 al-Qaida terrorists from carrying out the September 11th attacks.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ok Bistro, for the third or fourth time, where is the Koran reference?[/quote]

Al-Baqara 2:173 reads, “He has only forbidden you carrion, blood, pig’s meat, and animals over which any name other than God’s has been invoked. But if anyone is forced to eat such things by hunger, rather than desire or excess, he commits no sin: God is most merciful and forgiving.” Shooting jihadists with pig laced ammunition or desecrating their corspes similarly would not be theologically disconcerting to them in the least. Through their ostensibly faithful acts, martyrs are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Even if they were not, forced contact with pork products would not constitute a sin, much less a damnation worthy one capable of deterring them.[/quote]

That’s kinda what I thought, namely you flat-out don’t know what you’re talking about…or the professor you’re echoing doesn’t. One or the other or probably both. The Koranic text you cited above does NOT even remotely imply that immersing a dead Muslim in pork lard is NOT desecration – which is what I mentioned to begin with.
[/quote]

Obviously it is by definition desecration. I never denied as much; in fact, I explicitly stated it multiple times. What was under discussion was whether or not it was theologically damning and thus capable of establishing deterrence. Desecration constitutes forced contact. Ergo, it wouldn’t be sinful for the lay Muslim, much less a martyr, especially so given that they are exempt from the practice of ghusl. Your “cure” isn’t pragmatic hardball; it’s counterproductive barbarism. [/quote]

I don’t know that I considered it a cure, Bistrolita. More like a poke in their eye.

Don’t sweat it though as I won’t get crowned emperor anytime in the next few months or even years.
[/quote]

It plays right into the al-Qaida narrative of a clash of civilizations. ISIL has explicitly embraced a strategy of destroying the gray space between Islam and the secular state system. Emotive and from the hip retaliatory responses are exactly what the enemy wants. Why play right into their hands?

[quote]Bismark wrote:
It plays right into the al-Qaida narrative of a clash of civilizations. ISIL has explicitly embraced a strategy of destroying the gray space between Islam and the secular state system. Emotive and from the hip retaliatory responses are exactly what the enemy wants. Why play right into their hands? [/quote]
Can you provide some sources? I’ve seen similar things mentioned elsewhere, but I haven’t seen any firsthand statements.