Papal Candidate Says Church

[Cortes]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy. [/quote]

Why would there be?

Who has an interest to dig evidence up and how would he make priest be honest in a survey?

And that is if you do not count celibacy as a sexual deviancy, because then the numbers would be as high as 50% !!![/quote]

Good, then you agree with me that there is no basis for claiming any sort of correlation between the celibacy of Catholic priests and a tendency toward male child molestation or, more particularly, hebephilia.

And you also must agree that the data in particular do not support any such conclusion when pedophiles exist in at least the same and usually greater numbers of school teachers, uncles and males who happen to have access to time alone with children.

In other words, there’s nothing here. Move along. Find some other angle if you want to try and shit on the Catholic church.

[Sloth]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
“I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.”

Trick question, and one I will not be cornered into…
[/quote]

So you cant.

Cool, that’s what I thought. [/quote]

The ‘trick question’ bit had me laughing.

[orion]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy. [/quote]

Why would there be?

Who has an interest to dig evidence up and how would he make priest be honest in a survey?

And that is if you do not count celibacy as a sexual deviancy, because then the numbers would be as high as 50% !!![/quote]

Good, then you agree with me that there is no basis for claiming any sort of correlation between the celibacy of Catholic priests and a tendency toward male child molestation or, more particularly, hebephilia.

And you also must agree that the data in particular do not support any such conclusion when pedophiles exist in at least the same and usually greater numbers of school teachers, uncles and males who happen to have access to time alone with children.

In other words, there’s nothing here. Move along. Find some other angle if you want to try and shit on the Catholic church.
[/quote]

Well, if that were my intention I would point out how an organization, supposedly being the bride Christi, acted when they discovered such cases.

If all they can do is doing the same shitty song and dance number like all the rest, I might as well accept the DMV as my spiritual guide.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy. [/quote]

Why would there be?

Who has an interest to dig evidence up and how would he make priest be honest in a survey?

And that is if you do not count celibacy as a sexual deviancy, because then the numbers would be as high as 50% !!![/quote]

Good, then you agree with me that there is no basis for claiming any sort of correlation between the celibacy of Catholic priests and a tendency toward male child molestation or, more particularly, hebephilia.

And you also must agree that the data in particular do not support any such conclusion when pedophiles exist in at least the same and usually greater numbers of school teachers, uncles and males who happen to have access to time alone with children.

In other words, there’s nothing here. Move along. Find some other angle if you want to try and shit on the Catholic church.
[/quote]

I usually just read this stuff and don’t usually comment, but this post is disturbing.

It really seems as though you are saying that since there hasn’t been any evidence or studies created which show a higher correlation to pedophilia in the priesthood than in any other aspects of life, then it is not a problem within the Catholic Church, and there is nothing to address.

Is that actually your stance on this?

If so you truly are one sick unit. Having a higher incidence rate or corollary of child molestation in other aspects doesn’t mean that the Catholic priesthood isn’t a sick and fucked up institution. It only means that it is less fucked up than others.

That isn’t anything to be proud of.

[Sloth]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy. [/quote]

Why would there be?

Who has an interest to dig evidence up and how would he make priest be honest in a survey?

And that is if you do not count celibacy as a sexual deviancy, because then the numbers would be as high as 50% !!![/quote]

Good, then you agree with me that there is no basis for claiming any sort of correlation between the celibacy of Catholic priests and a tendency toward male child molestation or, more particularly, hebephilia.

And you also must agree that the data in particular do not support any such conclusion when pedophiles exist in at least the same and usually greater numbers of school teachers, uncles and males who happen to have access to time alone with children.

In other words, there’s nothing here. Move along. Find some other angle if you want to try and shit on the Catholic church.
[/quote]

Well, if that were my intention I would point out how an organization, supposedly being the bride Christi, acted when they discovered such cases.

If all they can do is doing the same shitty song and dance number like all the rest, I might as well accept the DMV as my spiritual guide. [/quote]

We’ve done a heck of a lot better than a system that hasn’t even tried to find solutions. So if you’re turned off by a media frenzy that somehow ignores an estimated 4.5 million children being abused by the time they graduate from high school, compared to 10,6667 abused by priests from 1950-2022, you weren’t even interested in the first place.

[Tiribulus]

Attacks on any church, including Rome, must be from declared authoritative sources. Some liberal who clearly doesn’t even accept his own church’s ecclesilogy says nothing about that church. Pro choice “Catholics” for example do not exist. They may SAY they are, but according to the authoritative dogmatic declarations of the church they cannot be. This guy speaks only for himself and there are millions of other professed Catholics who also speak only for themselves who espouse a whole list of anti Catholic positions.

The fact that they are allowed to remain in the church is problematic to say the very least when the apostle commands their excommunication in the clearest language possible (a huge issue of mine and another story). However, extrapolating anything about Catholicism from people who don’t actually practice it is strawman 101. The day the vatican explicitly recants explicitly declared dogma IS the end of that church. Her alleged authority which it’s no secret I do not buy, would be gone forever.

People don’t get this. Once dogma, it is the word of god to them. It CANNOT be reversed without immediately calling into question EVERYTHING she has ever taught. Guys like this will come and go. They have and are.

[Sloth]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

It really seems as though you are saying that since there hasn’t been any evidence or studies created which show a higher correlation to pedophilia in the priesthood than in any other aspects of life, then it is not a problem within the Catholic Church, and there is nothing to address.

Is that actually your stance on this?

[/quote]

Uh, no…That’s not what he’s saying. Did you even read what he was replying to?

Pedophilia is a problem in every aspect of life. Most pedophiles are molesting their family members, for instance. He addressed two things, that celibacy is (rather isn’t) correlated with pedophilia. You want a correlation? Male. Family. There I gave you two. Nor is it uniquely rampant within the church. The church, despite the media blitz, has about the same levels of incidence as other denominations.

Either you can’t follow a conversation, are you knew exactly what he was saying but decided to play stupid.

[Dr_Pangloss]

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Who cares? One liberal nut thinks he knows radical change is what is needed for an institution that has been chugging along tirelessly for two millenia now.

What, you posted this because it reflects your opinion? Let me guess: You aren’t Catholic. How’d I do?[/quote]

The man devoted his life to Christ, was a cardinal, and the archbishop of Milan but because you disagree with his views - views much more learned than our own - he must be a liberal nut. I’m going to assume that you’re frustrated with the direction you think my question is taking rather than actually thinking Martini is crazy, but feel free to correct me.

I was raised Catholic, I attend mass weekly, my children are being raised Catholic and attend a Catholic school. So, how do you think you did?

I posted the article because it’s unusual to hear criticism of the Church from someone of Martini’s stature and experience.

[Sloth]

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

The man devoted his life to Christ…

[/quote]

At some point he dedicated it to ‘let’s be cool and hip so MTV might even speak favorably about us.’

[SkyzykS]

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

It really seems as though you are saying that since there hasn’t been any evidence or studies created which show a higher correlation to pedophilia in the priesthood than in any other aspects of life, then it is not a problem within the Catholic Church, and there is nothing to address.

Is that actually your stance on this?

[/quote]

Uh, no…That’s not what he’s saying. Did you even read what he was replying to?

Pedophilia is a problem in every aspect of life. Most pedophiles are molesting their family members, for instance. He addressed two things, that celibacy is (rather isn’t) correlated with pedophilia. You want a correlation? Male. Family. There I gave you two. Nor is it uniquely rampant within the church. The church, despite the media blitz, has about the same levels of incidence as other denominations.

Either you can’t follow a conversation, are you knew exactly what he was saying but decided to play stupid.

[/quote]

Yes, I did read what he was replying to. It is the reply that I was addressing.

The rest of your bullshit is just that. I can construct a false dichotomy in which neither choice is true just as well as you too, like this- “Either you are in support of child molestation by being catholic, or are actively engaged in it.”.

See? But I don’t go there because that kind of stuff makes the person who does it look petty and stupid.

[Sloth]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

It really seems as though you are saying that since there hasn’t been any evidence or studies created which show a higher correlation to pedophilia in the priesthood than in any other aspects of life, then it is not a problem within the Catholic Church, and there is nothing to address.

Is that actually your stance on this?

[/quote]

Uh, no…That’s not what he’s saying. Did you even read what he was replying to?

Pedophilia is a problem in every aspect of life. Most pedophiles are molesting their family members, for instance. He addressed two things, that celibacy is (rather isn’t) correlated with pedophilia. You want a correlation? Male. Family. There I gave you two. Nor is it uniquely rampant within the church. The church, despite the media blitz, has about the same levels of incidence as other denominations.

Either you can’t follow a conversation, are you knew exactly what he was saying but decided to play stupid.

[/quote]

Yes, I did read what he was replying to. It is the reply that I was addressing.

The rest of your bullshit is just that. I can construct a false dichotomy in which neither choice is true just as well as you too, like this- “Either you are in support of child molestation by being catholic, or are actively engaged in it.”.

See? But I don’t go there because that kind of stuff makes the person who does it look petty and stupid.
[/quote]

Do you plan, at any point in time, on saying something that makes any sense, addresses what has actually been said, and offers some sort of data as a rebuttal? Or, are you here to waste my valuable time?

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Karado wrote:
I promise not to trap YOU into answering where in the Bible does it say That Jesus would send her Mother Mary Via any Apparitions and Messages that completely contradict the Messages of Scripture?
[/quote]

Prove that any approved apparitions of the Jesus, Blessed Virgin Mary, or the Saints give messages that completely contradict the message of scripture.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Karado wrote:
“If priests need to marry then explain why the public school system, which doesn’t make their faculty take a vow of celibacy, has a much bigger problem than the Church”.

Shhhhh, here’s a secret…ready? Come closer…maybe, JUST maybe, there are tens of Millions more Students
in Public School, as well as Millions more Teachers who are not vetted and not held to the much Higher Standard and Calling a Priest has…All things being equal for the sake of fairness I suspect that the problem is about the same, I STILL think Priests should Marry…There, I said it…“Should” Marry…Maybe “Need” was too strong a word…Yet SOMETHING tells me that still won’t “satisfy”
Will it??..I thought so. [/quote]

Priests can’t marry. That’s not an option. You can whine all day about it, but it won’t change.

However, married men can become priests and do, very often in the Catholic Church.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

Basically what this guy is saying is that men that can’t keep a vow with God should be allowed to take another vow with a woman…because you know that he’ll be faithful to the second vow.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]orion wrote:
Well, if that were my intention I would point out how an organization, supposedly being the bride Christi, acted when they discovered such cases.

If all they can do is doing the same shitty song and dance number like all the rest, I might as well accept the DMV as my spiritual guide. [/quote]

Two things to point out.

1. Those outside of the Church and in the pews, where not prosecuting child molestation cases.

2. The Church is made up of sinners, the Bride of Christ claims to have the fullness of truth not act perfectly.

Thus, the sinners inside the Church did as the sinners outside of the Church did and “rehabbed” the abusers and moved them. Dumb move, should have thrown them in the clink for the rest of their lives, but that brings up the question…who would have prosecuted them…

[pat]

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Who cares? One liberal nut thinks he knows radical change is what is needed for an institution that has been chugging along tirelessly for two millenia now.

What, you posted this because it reflects your opinion? Let me guess: You aren’t Catholic. How’d I do?[/quote]

The man devoted his life to Christ, was a cardinal, and the archbishop of Milan but because you disagree with his views - views much more learned than our own - he must be a liberal nut. I’m going to assume that you’re frustrated with the direction you think my question is taking rather than actually thinking Martini is crazy, but feel free to correct me.

I was raised Catholic, I attend mass weekly, my children are being raised Catholic and attend a Catholic school. So, how do you think you did?

I posted the article because it’s unusual to hear criticism of the Church from someone of Martini’s stature and experience.

[/quote]

I think this is just proof that the institution isn’t an archaic rigid institution. It allows free thought and exploration with in the confines of it’s dogma and that’s what makes it a rich varied and free church. Outside of the core dogma, there is wiggle room, there is room for divergent thoughts and explorations.
There is this idea, “Hey let’s look at somethings, is it true”. It’s a self correcting entity. If it were static, it would not have changed one iota since apostolic times. These explorations lead to path corrections. Man runs it, and at times people get away from the gospel, free thought is how we get back on message.
God gave the church to man to run, man screws up all the time, so we are always in need of course correction. It’s a living breathing body, with it’s target set on Christ in the Eucharist.
This Cardinal may not be al the way right, but he brings up points that need to be thought about. It’s how we adjust to reconcile a ever changing world with the unchanging body of Christ.

[Brother_Chris]

Anyway…

St. Mary's Catholic Center

[Brother_Chris]

From Fr. Z, he puts the interview in focus:

Act I: My Life Before I Surrendered to His Kingdom

[Karado]

“Skyzkys” made the point I’m trying to make…It’s like there’s no acknowlegement there’s even a problem
in the Church…and do not get me started on these Church Accepted Non-Biblical Marian Apparitions,
I’m holding my Aces on this Fairy Tale and Deception that was Prophesied no where in Scripture
because I’m a Believer as Well, and we are commanded to call out unbiblical sightings and messages
brought forth by “Her”, whoever the F*ck that is, and question “Her” to the Max.
My Savior sending “Mommy” for Apparition messages? Really?? Find in the Bible where Jesus would send his Mother and I’ll paypal anyone
100 bucks, if that was in the Bible I would actually consider it, I love the REAL
Mary BTW, but even SHE never said or hinted for a moment that she would appear to
Fallen Humanity in the Future…Anyone can see somethin’s not right here when it’s not
written in the Ancient Text, if it is, where can we find that Mary or the Saints will
appear To Modern Humanity? Where?

[thunderbolt23]

I am always puzzled and amused when people complain about the Catholic Church (or any church, for that matter) being “behind the times” - it makes about as much since as complaining that the genre of classical music is “behind the times” because classic music won’t include Metallica or Britney Spears as part of the genre of classical music.

“Classical music” is a thing and is governed by certain definitions - you can love Metallica or Britney Spears till you weep, but that doesn’t mean that the definition of “classical music” must be changed to accommodate new music outside the definitions of classical music to make “classical music” keep up with the times.

Same with churches.