[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Justice is not granted by any state. Only a slave would accept that it were.[/quote]
But you said a conviction was needed.
[/quote]
A conviction need come from the state?
Why should only they have that right?
Should not the victims families have a right to justice?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
Orion went on and on about how “the great superpower can’t even kill one 3rd world criminal” for years.
Now, he’s all in a tizzy about how it was conterproductive to do so…
Orion’s approach to PWI is a brillaint one: Just criticize anything the US does, says or, hell, even debates.
The man’s a study in the frustrations of impotency.[/quote]
Or maybe he just doesn’t accept what the US propaganda machine spoon feeds the mindless masses…?
I don’t.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The go-forward victory in this (aside from the death of an evil man) are the hard drives and computers recovered:
Passwords, bank accounts, secret phone numbers, websites, etc.
It’s a veritable Shin Bet/CIA treasure trove of stuff.[/quote]
Precisely.
A thought further: contrary to popular belief, OBL did not finance AQ out of his own fortune; he was a fund-raiser. He sent his minions out to “donors” in the Gulf states to collect millions in blood money, under his imprimatur.
Even if the comptrollers of AQ are fast enough, and transfer money out of the bank accounts, AQ’s donor will now go to ground for fear of being exposed. There will be a crisis of “legitimacy” in the sense that no courier will have the OBL signature, and Zawahiri’s appeals will not be so honored, for fear of being exposed by an agent or swindled by an imposter. It takes years to build trust and accountability.
And that is how you disarm an ideology.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
No, it did not take 10 years. It actually took much longer. A lot of this started with Clinton. Clinton had intelligence that Bin laden and the Al Qaeda planned to fly commercial air liners into buildings back in 1996. Sudan even captured Bin Laden back then and Clinton simply refused to request him so they let him go. Literally in 96 he was offered to Clinton on a fucking silver platter. This goes back a lot further than most of you apparently remember.[/quote]
He was busy getting blow jobs.
Also remember the Bojinka plot and the world trade centre truck bombing planned/executed by Ramzi Yousef and uncle Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and financed by you know who. Every major newspaper forgot the Bojinka plot and described the use of liquid explosives on airliners as a ‘new threat’. The Bojinka test run killed a Japanese businessman and maimed 10 people.
What about the Egyptian pilot who may or may not have taken the controls of an airliner and crashed it into the ocean killing all on board? A test for 9-11?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A conviction need come from the state?
Why should only they have that right?
Should not the victims families have a right to justice?[/quote]
Red herring. A conviction doesn’t have to come the state, but it can/could - and would/does under the circumstances, because we outlaw mob justice. So the only conviction available was through the state - and you said there was no justice because there was no conviction.
So, the state needed to convict OBL before justice would be done? And because it didn’t…no justice?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A salute, from a grateful citizen, to the men who carried out this operation. A nod to Obama, who said what needed saying. Despite my opposition to just about any policy this President has pushed, the man is an American. Despite his cool and measured demeanor, I could sense the urge to let out a great big “Awww yeah! How about them apples AQ? You like them apples? Think I might just make me some apple pie!”[/quote]
I think they thank Allah that they finally have their martyr.
Excellent recruiting tool, and he is no longer around to give unsolicited advice.
If they could drink I guess they would.
[/quote]
They can thank Allah till they’re blue in the face. When the new guy steps in to fill Osama’s sandals, we’ll give them another martyr. If Al Qaeda wants to be a martyr vending machine, we’ll oblige. [/quote]
No, you are the martyr vending machine, they are the Pentagon funding machine.
[/quote]
Lew really does breed a special kind of stupid. Shouldn’t your time be spent denying the denials of a holocaust denier, eh Ahmadinapologist? Justice was served, sorry if that darkened your day. No, wait, I’m not. [/quote]
LOL.
Orion went on and on about how “the great superpower can’t even kill one 3rd world criminal” for years.
Now, he’s all in a tizzy about how it was conterproductive to do so…
Orion’s approach to PWI is a brillaint one: Just criticize anything the US does, says or, hell, even debates.
The man’s a study in the frustrations of impotency.[/quote]
The Ahmadinapologist fulminates pollution, as predicted (The Secret History of Money - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation), when he runs out of facts or insight. We can’t expect him to follow logic, too.
I take notice, despite all the gas, of repetitive nonsense that implicates the West in providing “reasons” justifying the murderous actions of Fanatics; e.g., killing OBL somehow provides “reasons” or rationale for further terrorism, and this would not happen if we simply stopped every action perceived as hostile, and traded cuckoo clocks and lederhosen with Al Qaeda.
This is nonsense, but it does point to the failed conceit of Western Rationalism: we are all alike and have similar interests and goals, East and West, secular or religious, etc.
But not everyone in the world necessarily shares the values of Wester Culture; and why should they and why should one presume they should?
The Fanatic is a different sort of person. It is a tautology, but what defines his fanatacism is the absence of material reasons for his action; he needs no new excuses to commit terrorism because he has 1400 years of excuses to justify hatred. OBL did not care about John Locke. The Fanatic does not honor, life, liberty, and the pursuit of property–even Austrian cuckoo clocks-- because he answers to a higher and unsatisfiable power.
Fanatics will use our acts to excuse their own; whether OBL were alive or dead he served as an effective recruting tool. If Fanatics use the OBL assassination as a recruiting tool, they does so in order to fool its target audience, which also includes gullible Western European Rationalists.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A conviction need come from the state?
Why should only they have that right?
Should not the victims families have a right to justice?[/quote]
Red herring. A conviction doesn’t have to come the state, but it can/could - and would/does under the circumstances, because we outlaw mob justice. So the only conviction available was through the state - and you said there was no justice because there was no conviction.
So, the state needed to convict OBL before justice would be done? And because it didn’t…no justice?[/quote]
No, tb, you simply do not understand Lifty’s nuanced understanding of law, justice and minarchist government.
The aggrieved families would simply join in an all-inclusive Anarcho-Syndicalist Organization (sanctioned by whom?–never mind), recreate the intelligence capabilities of the CIA, appoint a board of members to decide, direct, and train a special forces unit (on what authority?–never mind), and then go about catching OBL–perhaps by putting salt on his tail–and bring him before a spontaneous council for an arbitrated settlement.
Clear now?
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
The Ahmadinapologist fulminates pollution, as predicted (The Secret History of Money - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation), when he runs out of facts or insight. We can’t expect him to follow logic, too.
I take notice, despite all the gas, of repetitive nonsense that implicates the West in providing “reasons” justifying the murderous actions of Fanatics; e.g., killing OBL somehow provides “reasons” or rationale for further terrorism, and this would not happen if we simply stopped every action perceived as hostile, and traded cuckoo clocks and lederhosen with Al Qaeda.
This is nonsense, but it does point to the failed conceit of Western Rationalism: we are all alike and have similar interests and goals, East and West, secular or religious, etc.
But not everyone in the world necessarily shares the values of Wester Culture; and why should they and why should one presume they should?
The Fanatic is a different sort of person. It is a tautology, but what defines his fanatacism is the absence of material reasons for his action; he needs no new excuses to commit terrorism because he has 1400 years of excuses to justify hatred. OBL did not care about John Locke. The Fanatic does not honor, life, liberty, and the pursuit of property–even Austrian cuckoo clocks-- because he answers to a higher and unsatisfiable power.
Fanatics will use our acts to excuse their own; whether OBL were alive or dead he served as an effective recruting tool. If Fanatics use the OBL assassination as a recruiting tool, they does so in order to fool its target audience, which also includes gullible Western European Rationalists.[/quote]
Excellent post, Doc - and it crystallizes the great failure of this conceit. Why do so many always assume a rationalist-materialist explanation to the cause and effect of what terrorists do or don’t do? Why start with an unfounded presumption that Islamic terrorists act in obeyance to this kind of rationalism - when nothing they otherwise do gives any indication that they are operating under this intellectul architecture?
Terrorists don’t kill because they are a form of Marx’s proletariat “havee nots” acting out against oppression by “the haves” - they kill because they are consumed with an ideology that demands they kill.
Again, excellent post.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Why do so many always assume a rationalist-materialist explanation to the cause and effect of what terrorists do or don’t do?
[/quote]
They don’t assume that really. It’s just been awfully trendy to undermine your own society since the late 60’s. We’re just not ‘with it’. It requires daily doublethinks that we’re just not capable of.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
The Ahmadinapologist fulminates pollution, as predicted (The Secret History of Money - Politics and World Issues - Forums - T Nation), when he runs out of facts or insight. We can’t expect him to follow logic, too.
I take notice, despite all the gas, of repetitive nonsense that implicates the West in providing “reasons” justifying the murderous actions of Fanatics; e.g., killing OBL somehow provides “reasons” or rationale for further terrorism, and this would not happen if we simply stopped every action perceived as hostile, and traded cuckoo clocks and lederhosen with Al Qaeda.
This is nonsense, but it does point to the failed conceit of Western Rationalism: we are all alike and have similar interests and goals, East and West, secular or religious, etc.
But not everyone in the world necessarily shares the values of Wester Culture; and why should they and why should one presume they should?
The Fanatic is a different sort of person. It is a tautology, but what defines his fanatacism is the absence of material reasons for his action; he needs no new excuses to commit terrorism because he has 1400 years of excuses to justify hatred. OBL did not care about John Locke. The Fanatic does not honor, life, liberty, and the pursuit of property–even Austrian cuckoo clocks-- because he answers to a higher and unsatisfiable power.
Fanatics will use our acts to excuse their own; whether OBL were alive or dead he served as an effective recruting tool. If Fanatics use the OBL assassination as a recruiting tool, they does so in order to fool its target audience, which also includes gullible Western European Rationalists.[/quote]
Excellent post, Doc - and it crystallizes the great failure of this conceit. Why do so many always assume a rationalist-materialist explanation to the cause and effect of what terrorists do or don’t do? Why start with an unfounded presumption that Islamic terrorists act in obeyance to this kind of rationalism - when nothing they otherwise do gives any indication that they are operating under this intellectul architecture?
Terrorists don’t kill because they are a form of Marx’s proletariat “havee nots” acting out against oppression by “the haves” - they kill because they are consumed with an ideology that demands they kill.
Again, excellent post.[/quote]
Yes, it also is a failure of Materialism, another “gift” of the Enlightenment to generations of the misguided. Whether expressed as Rationalism, or Marxism, or indeed as “Libertarianism” (as expressed often in this forum), Materialism has its faces, but it all presumes delimited and “axiomatic” and perforce universally held motivations for human action: “reason,” or the “force of history,” or “absolute property rights” are wreathed in the exclusive claim to human interest.
(I do not limit Fanatacism to Islam, or course. Fanatacism has its faces, too, and Islamacism–a political movement–however, serves as the immediate example, an example defined by its demand to kill.)
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Erasmus wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Erasmus wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Erasmus wrote:
I’m glad the bastard is dead and he deserved it. However if you look at what evils the US government had perpetrated upon innocent Afghani’s/Pakistani’s alone, Osama looks like a petty thief.[/quote]
This is not the time or place to be saying such things. It is a celebratory time. Someone who wreaked havoc on America and killed thousands of innocent civilians has been killed by our guys. I’m very proud of our military.
So on behalf of every good American I want to tell you from the bottom of my heart, SHUT THE FUCK UP!
[/quote]
They killed Osama alright! Along with thousands of civilians! Millions dead because of international trade sanctions, rise in disfigured babies being born, more and more money stolen from tax-slaves and the complete rape of personal liberties.
You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!
This is why some quotes get immortalized, because they touch something deep down.
[/quote]
Sorry, too busy celebrating Bin Laden’s death to worry about what someone from Holland thinks…LOL. Either join in this celebratory thread or take my original advice.[/quote]
hahaha, yeah that’s true!
My responses are pretty out of place here, I will prob not be posting here anymore.
I really mean this! No joke or bad feelings/sarcasm!
Thanks for open my eyes to some things just made my life a little easier!
Goodbye and have a good life![/quote]
Thank you, you too. And good luck trying to sort out all of the political problems in…Holland.
:)[/quote]
He concedes and leaves… and you kick him on the way out.
Classy.[/quote]
He’s the ad hominem king. It’s his unshakable faith shining through. Don’t you see it’s made him a better person?[/quote]
And you’re the porno pusher who instructs 20 somethings on how to make better pornography. Tell me scum bag when your son is old enough to ask you what you do in your spare time, are you going to tell him?
crawl back under your rock.[/quote]
Ahh that Christianity shines thru at every chance 
Are you still on parole for embezzling from your employer? The porn post is tongue-in-cheek. You “finding Christ” when you’ve stepped in your own shit is just calling for a lifeline.
But just wondering…how did your kids handle the felony charges against you? I know they were a bit older and they probably understood the whole thing. Was it don’t ask don’t tell in your house?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The ‘message we’ve been sending’? It takes us 17 years to kill your leader and we want to win your hearts and minds with far-reaching acts of appeasement and submission. We’re even willing to dismantle our forward observation posts in line with your demands to assure you we aren’t ‘spying on your women’.[/quote]
The message sent is that we will not bow to terror tactics. AQ lives in a world where you can rape and decapitate your political will into place, and the “peaceful” people will just drop their heads and go about their diminished lives. They now have a concrete example that shows we will not forget, and we will pursue justice. I’m pleased that OBL got comfortable and felt secure, yet the last thing he experienced in life (aside from a bullet above the eye) was absolute dread as his door exploded in and half a dozen soldiers in black poured out.
[quote]
Happy to allow your forward observers to safely direct incoming mortar fire and stake out Kabul airport too. Not allowed to shoot anyone till they shoot us and only if there are no ‘civilians’ near by. Not allowed to return mortar fire/use artillery in case ‘civilians’ get killed. Not allowed to pursue retreating enemy. Busy building schools and hospitals for you and happy to take IED casualties from you in the process. Enjoying regular sit downs with your ‘elders’(read Taliban warlords) even when these involve getting an axe planted in our commander’s head. Also happy to protect your Karzai approved poppy fields.
I think we need to send a new message.[/quote]
It doesn’t take much for you to kick it into high gear, does it? Go ahead and try to justify that little rant as a “message” sent from us sending a SEAL team in to put a bullet in the face of global terror.
You’re an idiot. The point was that Assange would never leak information related to the raid, because he can’t selectively edit it to manufacture so-called evidence in support of an agenda. These specific ends are incompatible with his chosen means. All of that is apparent to anyone who asks themselves the question “Why would wikileaks post this?” and comes to the inevitable conclusion that “They wouldn’t”
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have to say that I am happy that justice prevailed today, but I am not happy that someone died.[/quote]
Brother Chris, you need to spend less time in the NT and more time in the OT:
‘The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death’
Deuteronomy 13:1-5[/quote]Justice was absolutely done and hence good was accomplished. That does not necessitate being joyous about a man being killed and by all accounts without Christ. Bin Laden was an evil man and deserved death and damnation, but then again left to myself so am and so do I.
[/quote]
What is it with you believers? Comparing your sins/damnation to Bin Laden’s and expressing sorrow that ‘a man has been killed without Christ’? Perhaps we should have let him shoot our Seals till he ran out of ammo then tried to convert him to Christianity? After all, the Seals are sinners too right? And who are we to make moral distinctions between the people who put their lives on the line to protect our arses and the ones who kill us?[/quote]You’re characterizing my attitude which I do not have time to address at the moment.
[quote]borrek wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The ‘message we’ve been sending’? It takes us 17 years to kill your leader and we want to win your hearts and minds with far-reaching acts of appeasement and submission. We’re even willing to dismantle our forward observation posts in line with your demands to assure you we aren’t ‘spying on your women’.[/quote]
The message sent is that we will not bow to terror tactics. AQ lives in a world where you can rape and decapitate your political will into place, and the “peaceful” people will just drop their heads and go about their diminished lives. They now have a concrete example that shows we will not forget, and we will pursue justice. I’m pleased that OBL got comfortable and felt secure, yet the last thing he experienced in life (aside from a bullet above the eye) was absolute dread as his door exploded in and half a dozen soldiers in black poured out.
AQ lives in Afghanistan/NWFP/Baluchistan. Do you know ANYTHING about the history of those places and the people who inhabit them?
Assange ‘would never leak information related to the raid, because he can’t selectively edit it to manufacture so-called evidence in support of an agenda’?
‘These specific ends are incompatible with his chosen means’
His ‘chosen means’ are to release EVERYTHING he gets his bloodstained hands on! He’s already admitted that. He doesn’t hold back anything. He released 250,000+ Whitehouse communications cables, many of which were classified as secret. He’s a fucking liability the size of the moon.
His ‘specific ends’ are to undermine Western democracies.
BTW - The photo you refer to is FAKE. The Whitehouse hasn’t released the real one/s. They’re waiting to see if it’s necessary. i.e. if nutters/idiots/Islamists get a ‘Bin Laden truth’ conspiracy rolling. He was shot in the side of the head as the Whitehouse has stated and as you would know if you had a fully functioning brain.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A conviction need come from the state?
Why should only they have that right?
Should not the victims families have a right to justice?[/quote]
Red herring. A conviction doesn’t have to come the state, but it can/could - and would/does under the circumstances, because we outlaw mob justice. So the only conviction available was through the state - and you said there was no justice because there was no conviction.
So, the state needed to convict OBL before justice would be done? And because it didn’t…no justice?[/quote]
Yes, precisely, what is versus what should be are not the point. I hold you statists to your own terms of justice. That is the only way it can be…because of how you say, circumstances.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, precisely, what is versus what should be are not the point. I hold you statists to your own terms of justice. That is the only way it can be…because of how you say, circumstances.[/quote]
Nope, justice can exist outside of a civil or criminal court conviction - even “statists” recognize that. There is nothing that says a court conviction is the only form of justice - it is one, but not the only.
Thanks for playing.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Ahh that Christianity shines thru at every chance :)[/quote]
Actually it does, I condemn your lifestyle and the filth that you spread on these pages in the form of how to make better porn.
And here’s something that might help you, give it a click instead of the usual places you go:
Hope it helps.
More lies, it was a very methodical step by step post on how to make better porn. You covered the topic completely. You even fielded questions and answers from the 20 something’s that took part.
You’re addicted to porn and your addictive personality shines through in many of your posts. Actually I thought you left PWI when 3 or 4 people exposed you for the fraud that you were on a thread a few weeks back. I had a good laugh at the way you could not handle the in depth questions.
Never been charged with a crime in my life, but what else do you have to fall back on but lies? It’s what you do. You’re a detestable human being and lying is like a second language to you (you speak your father’s language). Because you’ve exposed yourself as a sleaze online you now make things up to drag me down to your level. It fits your profile perfectly.
Well here’s what we should do, why don’t we each post our evidence?
I’ll post all of the damming evidence which shows you to be a pornographer, a bully who picks on women, and an ass clown who challenges people to fight over the Internet. All of course from your own words. And you can post all your evidence about me in my own words. Fair enough sleaze ball?
One of us is a dirty liar and I think we all know which one it is. Is this how you’re raising your son? “And when someone has bested you in an argument son just make stuff up that looks bad. It’s okay to lie if it might help your case son.” What a great Dad you are, a pornographer and a liar. You should have given custody to your wife, give the poor kid a chance in life.
You were correct about what you said about yourself - You are your own worst enemy.
Get help!
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A conviction need come from the state?
Why should only they have that right?
Should not the victims families have a right to justice?[/quote]
Red herring. A conviction doesn’t have to come the state, but it can/could - and would/does under the circumstances, because we outlaw mob justice. So the only conviction available was through the state - and you said there was no justice because there was no conviction.
So, the state needed to convict OBL before justice would be done? And because it didn’t…no justice?[/quote]
Checkmate Lifty!
Wait, what’s wrong with porn?