[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The problem is the Seal Team was American, thus they are wrong no matter what the did. Had a Pakistani special forces team done the same, Orion wouldn’t be complaining.
[/quote]
this is perfect.[/quote]
No.
It is perfectly possible to convey the idea of stupidity more succinctly.
[/quote]
I agree…just read your last couple of posts.
[quote]orion wrote:
Just for the record, if he charged them with a scimitar he deserves at least 3 semi attractive virgins.
[/quote]
What do Austrian dicktators get for chosing the cowards way out?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Just for the record, if he charged them with a scimitar he deserves at least 3 semi attractive virgins.
[/quote]
What do Austrian dicktators get for chosing the cowards way out?[/quote]
LOL!
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
Let me guess, you aren’t from America, right?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
So apparently he had no weapon, did not use a woman as a shield, his wife was shot in the leg trying to defend him and the woman killed was someone else entirely.
Ahem.
Bonus points because he was killed “resisting arrest”.
Ah those weaponless diabetics, no choice but to put em down.
Any Navy Seal who can say that with a straight face deserves a medal just for that alone.
[/quote]
Dude, don’t you know all spec ops are sociopaths. Every single one of them.
They kill for a living. You think they cannot lie with a straight face?[/quote]
clearly you’ve never met one.[/quote]
ahahahahahaha
ok, chief.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
Let me guess, you aren’t from America, right?
[/quote]
Yes.
And will say it once more.
I dont dislke or hate Americans. Its just unfair what your government does to the world in the name of your nation for the benefit of a few.
Just think about it. Who pays the price. You citizens, with the people that died in S-11 and the soldeirs that die every day fighting for them to profit.
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
But this is nearly impossible, you see. They are mostly raised by government schools which indoctrinate them with propaganda about how awesome the US government is for ALL HUMANITY; that and the fact that primitive minded people do not have what it takes to question authority – even if they could get over their own sheepishness to do so.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Just for the record, if he charged them with a scimitar he deserves at least 3 semi attractive virgins.
[/quote]
What do Austrian dicktators get for chosing the cowards way out?[/quote]
What does that have to do with anything?
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
Let me guess, you aren’t from America, right?
[/quote]
Yes.
And will say it once more.
I dont dislke or hate Americans. Its just unfair what your government does to the world in the name of your nation for the benefit of a few.
Just think about it. Who pays the price. You citizens, with the people that died in S-11 and the soldeirs that die every day fighting for them to profit.[/quote]
So wait, let’s just take one thing at a time here. I understand English is not your first language (I’m guessing European…Italian?), so perhaps this is just an issue of miscommunication, but, are you saying that the victims of the September 11th mass murder died because of American actions? Like, Noam Chomsky style science fiction type stuff?
I get a kick out of some posters who think that the Navy Seal team might have done something wrong. In reality the only thing they could have done wrong was aim, shoot and miss. And since we know they hit their target that pretty much settles it for me.
Job well done guys.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
But this is nearly impossible, you see. They are mostly raised by government schools which indoctrinate them with propaganda about how awesome the US government is for ALL HUMANITY; that and the fact that primitive minded people do not have what it takes to question authority – even if they could get over their own sheepishness to do so.
[/quote]
Yes i know thats the huge obstacle in the way.
Thats why the few see what really is going on should do something. Even something as posting like i do.
But i just dont accept that people dont see what goes on. The government just messes with U.S. lives either by sending poor soldeirs to die for something they believe, and sadly is not true. Or by screwing your economy on purpose.
What they do is not fair for the world and its not fair for americans.
Something must be done. Doesnt matter if it seems insignificant, it will make a diference. At least you’ll who really is hitting you.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
So wait, let’s just take one thing at a time here. I understand English is not your first language (I’m guessing European…Italian?), so perhaps this is just an issue of miscommunication, but, are you saying that the victims of the September 11th mass murder died because of American actions? Like, Noam Chomsky style science fiction type stuff?
[/quote]
It’s not his use of English. It’s your understanding of it.
He clearly said it was no because of individual Americans but rather the US GOVERNMENT.
And this is why America will fall…people cannot understand ideas let alone have the guts to act upon them.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I get a kick out of some posters who think that the Navy Seal team might have done something wrong. In reality the only thing they could have done wrong was aim, shoot and miss. And since we know they hit their target that pretty much settles it for me.
Job well done guys.[/quote]
Yeah because we all know taking orders to kill people is an awesome way of life.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
[quote]k-dingo wrote:
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Perhaps it is the economist in me, but I can’t help looking at the CBA of our actions. As has been posted it certainly doesn’t mean multiple wars and bombing strikes were necessitated to track down Osama. Counter terrorism doesn’t have to mean large scale intractable wars that include nation building. I don’t have the figures in front of me, but if you total up all the people killed in 9/11 and then compare all the people killed in our war effort not counting the displaced, financially maligned, etc. it becomes a hard question to answer whether our actions were justified. We probably lost more Americans in the fight than in all the terrorist attacks in our nation’s history combined by some margin. [/quote]
We know that the Iraq war was not justified on the stated merits (WMD).
From the news reports I’ve heard, the intel on bin Laden’s couriers came from Guantanamo. Possible as a result of persons captured in Iraq. To that extent, the Iraq war may have helped. I don’t know.
I do agree that if the calculus is of those killed to the aim of simply capturing bin Laden, the numbers very simply don’t add up. The experience of the Arab Spring uprisings suggests that a peaceful, indiginous uprising could likely have occured with far fewer casualties (hundreds or possibly low thousands, but not tens to hundreds of thousands as in Iraq).
Israel’s methods may be brutal, but they’re also very targeted, very specific, and pretty effective. Their larger image problem comes from the less directed and indiscriminate repression and brutalization of a larger population (much as various US freedom takedowns and policies since 9/11 have tarnished the US’s image). The OBL take-down was specific, targeted, and surgical. It also relied on having a lot of intel, local assets: the strike force was launched in Afghanistan. Without ready local assets it would have been more difficult to launch and support such a mission.
How much of the current situation was helped or hurt by past actions? There’s little way of knowing now, though I suspect it’ll be the subject of policy debate for decades to come. Did US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan help or hurt the Arab Spring? How much of this is a fall out of economic pressures (particularly rising fuel and food prices)? What are the ideological motivations of the factions within the Arab uprising? Note that as with any group, especially a revolution, there are many diverse groups and interests represented.
To the first point, whether the Iraq war helped us get Osama or not I find unimportant. If Guantanamo was the cause of the information gathering I am even more disquieted. Here is my calculus for this event. In effect, we sold our soul and all of our principals and morality to capture one lone figure. We suspended habeas corpus, invaded two foreign countries, violated the sovereignty of others (Pakistan particularly), impoverished future generations of Americans with unprecedented debt and soon-to-be inflation, imprisoned men without hard evidence indefinitely, suspended man civil liberties (patriot act) and have resorted to torture in the name of what? Revenge? Killing a single, albeit important, terrorist? Preserving liberty?
Again I don’t deny I am relieved and somewhat cheered the man is finally dead, but when you stop to survey what all we did and sacrificed to kill one man I find it difficult to be more than slightly happy. Now that all of the preceding has been done, I’m glad he is at least dead at the end of it, but honestly I think it would have been better to have foregone most of that bullshit and still have a country I can respect at the end of it.
To your final point about the effectiveness of targeting leaders, I will try to dig up the paper, but this has been very well studied and to say that the results are mixed would be about the best you can claim. Only in extremely selective circumstances does it do any good at all and more often than not it has been shown to cause more problems than it solves. Depending on the structure of the organization (e.g. whether it has cells or not) it may or may not have any permanent effect at all. Egypt and Jordan are hardly terrorist organizations either. Hamas and a slew of other actual terrorists groups are alive and well. Is Israel partly to blame? Yes, and that is my point. Their policies are brutal and meant to intimidate and, wonder of wonders, they have only further entrenched their enemies and increased their resolve and hatred. To which I again reply, is this really the strategy we need to be taking? But without the paper this is all just my own opinions so I will try to find it and post it up.
EDIT: Link to the paper I referenced- http://cpost.uchicago.edu/pdf/Jordan.pdf[/quote]
The above is one giant strawman. Although we might have committed some or all of the acts in the first part of your post, we did not do it solely to capture bin Laden. I have no opinion on the targeting of leaders. [/quote]
Yes, the above was a simplification of the admittedly very complex conflict, but I would hardly call it a straw man. Osama and Al Qaeda were certainly the catalyst which started this ‘war on terror’ and the quest to kill Osama and his terrorist organization very much was a major selling point used by our government. Without the stated need to remove Al Qaeda from power in Afghanistan we wouldn’t have gone to war there. So I would not consider this a straw man argument, as popular a criticism as that is these days. Substitue ‘terrorism’ in for Bin Laden and my point stands regardless of how important you think Bin Laden was to kicking this whole shindig off.
In the name of revenge for several thousand lives (a tragic figure certainly) we sacrificed many thousands more American lives and most all of our remaining principles, not too mention our financial security. Was it worth it? Ask the people who were thrown in prison without cause for 10 years and then released because ‘there never was any actual evidence. Whoops!’ (one of many references available: The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines .) Hindsight is 20/20, I admit that, but again at the very least we should be reticent about all that has unfolded, not joyful.
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
But this is nearly impossible, you see. They are mostly raised by government schools which indoctrinate them with propaganda about how awesome the US government is for ALL HUMANITY; that and the fact that primitive minded people do not have what it takes to question authority – even if they could get over their own sheepishness to do so.
[/quote]
Yes i know thats the huge obstacle in the way.
Thats why the few see what really is going on should do something. Even something as posting like i do.
But i just dont accept that people dont see what goes on. The government just messes with U.S. lives either by sending poor soldeirs to die for something they believe, and sadly is not true. Or by screwing your economy on purpose.
What they do is not fair for the world and its not fair for americans.
Something must be done. Doesnt matter if it seems insignificant, it will make a diference. At least you’ll who really is hitting you.[/quote]
All we can do is change people’s minds as peacefully as we can.
That is the only moral way to do it.
We cannot change the world with a snipers bullet.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
Let me guess, you aren’t from America, right?
[/quote]
Yes.
And will say it once more.
I dont dislke or hate Americans. Its just unfair what your government does to the world in the name of your nation for the benefit of a few.
Just think about it. Who pays the price. You citizens, with the people that died in S-11 and the soldeirs that die every day fighting for them to profit.[/quote]
So wait, let’s just take one thing at a time here. I understand English is not your first language (I’m guessing European…Italian?), so perhaps this is just an issue of miscommunication, but, are you saying that the victims of the September 11th mass murder died because of American actions? Like, Noam Chomsky style science fiction type stuff?
[/quote]
I am from Paraguay, South America. I studied english since I 5 years old.
I meant to say what you understood.
what this video, this is one of many others that show what S-11 really was.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
But this is nearly impossible, you see. They are mostly raised by government schools which indoctrinate them with propaganda about how awesome the US government is for ALL HUMANITY; that and the fact that primitive minded people do not have what it takes to question authority – even if they could get over their own sheepishness to do so.
[/quote]
Yes i know thats the huge obstacle in the way.
Thats why the few see what really is going on should do something. Even something as posting like i do.
But i just dont accept that people dont see what goes on. The government just messes with U.S. lives either by sending poor soldeirs to die for something they believe, and sadly is not true. Or by screwing your economy on purpose.
What they do is not fair for the world and its not fair for americans.
Something must be done. Doesnt matter if it seems insignificant, it will make a diference. At least you’ll who really is hitting you.[/quote]
All we can do is change people’s minds as peacefully as we can.
That is the only moral way to do it.
We cannot change the world with a snipers bullet.[/quote]
You could not have said it better.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]JESGPY wrote:
I read many of the posts in here.
I just cant believe some still buy the lies your government feeds you.
There a simple reasons for everything that happens to you people.
You have a government that is managed by a group of people that gives a fuck about anyone, its all about profit and power. They will spare any lives to reach that goal, being that American lives or from any nationality.
They have used the rest of the world as their backyard. Placed dicatators in Central and South America. Invaded coutries for their oil(Iraq is one of the last ones). They make YOU AMERICAN CITIZENS live in FEAR so that you approve any measure they propose. They are taking away your freedom and you are aplauding them.
The whole world if tired of your government and thats why we have Islamic fanatics and people like that.
Dont think that they are the only ones that hate you government, here in south america, we despise it too.
But you gotta have ONE THING very clear…
THE WORLD AGAINST THE CITIZENS FROM THE U.S. IT AGAINTS ITS GOVERNMENT.
IF you want to change that feeling many have towards your country stop playing the victim role and open your eyes and see the world has been the victim of your country. And to change that you gotta start doing something.
[/quote]
Let me guess, you aren’t from America, right?
[/quote]
Yes.
And will say it once more.
I dont dislke or hate Americans. Its just unfair what your government does to the world in the name of your nation for the benefit of a few.
Just think about it. Who pays the price. You citizens, with the people that died in S-11 and the soldeirs that die every day fighting for them to profit.[/quote]
So wait, let’s just take one thing at a time here. I understand English is not your first language (I’m guessing European…Italian?), so perhaps this is just an issue of miscommunication, but, are you saying that the victims of the September 11th mass murder died because of American actions? Like, Noam Chomsky style science fiction type stuff?
[/quote]
By the beach, his pose and the girl in the background adjusting her bikini on his avatar and the passion in his convictions, I would say Brazilian.
