Open Letter to Sean Hannity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]kroby wrote:
Wrong. Gestapo tactics were all they needed to hold power. And they already occupied France, Poland, etc… Germany’s downfall was:

  1. Hitler was frakkin’ CRAZY
  2. Winter wartime in Russia.

…

Do you even believe in Liberty?
[/quote]
The reasons you cited above was good enough reason for the US to stay out of Europe and let nature takes its course don’t you think?

Besides that, why does it matter who controls Europe? That place has always been a clusterfuck of power-mad authoritarianism. There never would have been any stability and things would have eventually changed as they always have–maybe to our benefit, maybe not.

Do I believe in Liberty? Yes, but I also believe in self-determination and self-government. Liberty can not be awarded as a prize for winning a war. It has to be demanded by independence from the citizens to the government in question as it was between the US and Britain. When the US goes into a country and “liberates” a people that is not liberty. That is the US imposing its view of government.

I strongly believe in the defensive measures cited by Smedley Butler, allowing of course for changes in technology. The US has no business storming into other countries. Let the countries in question fight it out on their own.

I just think it is funny that we get all emotional about the killing of Jews but we neglect the other atrocities that have happened and are happening on other continents to people with darker shades of skin. That is the height of hypocrisy.

22

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
kroby wrote:
Wrong. Gestapo tactics were all they needed to hold power. And they already occupied France, Poland, etc… Germany’s downfall was:

  1. Hitler was frakkin’ CRAZY
  2. Winter wartime in Russia.

…

Do you even believe in Liberty?

The reasons you cited above was good enough reason for the US to stay out of Europe and let nature takes its course don’t you think?[/quote]

And let USSR take over? That was your worst case scenario. Is that “letting nature take it’s course?”

[quote]Besides that, why does it matter who controls Europe? That place has always been a clusterfuck of power-mad authoritarianism. There never would have been any stability and things would have eventually changed as they always have–maybe to our benefit, maybe not.

Do I believe in Liberty? Yes, but I also believe in self-determination and self-government. Liberty can not be awarded as a prize for winning a war. It has to be demanded by independence from the citizens to the government in question as it was between the US and Britain. When the US goes into a country and “liberates” a people that is not liberty. That is the US imposing its view of government.[/quote]

So, the liberty of France, Germany and others doesn’t warrant our support? Instead, we let USSR take them over, as they did Eastern Europe? Remember, this is one of your possible outcomes you offered.

Like Kuwait. Brilliant. Congratulations, Lifty. I hope no one ever depends on you.

I have spoken of Darfur on many occasions. Keep your charges of hypocrisy to yourself.

23

[quote]kroby wrote:
And let USSR take over? That was your worst case scenario. Is that “letting nature take it’s course?”
[/quote]
Perhaps the cold-war would have ended much sooner when they over extended themselves–the US is going that route soon.

Independence and liberty is completely on the country in question–who do we depend on for our liberty? Why should other countries be dependent on me, my family, or my tax dollars? Is that fair?

If one is too weak to stand-up for their self then there is little we can do without committing ourselves completely to that country and we might as well claim it as our own. We can protect ourselves and I have served my country in that capacity–but I will not serve some other country’s needs indefinitely–like Iraq will end up needing.

Like I said, who controls whom doesn’t change anything except who gets to eat the cookies–the US isn’t the supreme-benefactor to the world nor should it attempt to be–it isn’t fair to ask people to take responsibility for the life of others.

Life sucks for some people! Get over it.

[quote]
I have spoken of Darfur on many occasions. Keep your charges of hypocrisy to yourself.[/quote]

You may have spoken about Darfur but our government has not and you do not speak for the official chosen foreign policy of our country. I couldn’t care less what one person thinks. What about Cambodia, Indonesia, Armenia, Rwanda, or Nanking–did they not deserve America’s benevolence? The only place we have gone is Bosnia to help some more white people.

Do you not remember what happened in Somalia when all we tried to do was feed people–we couldn’t even do that?

24

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You may have spoken about Darfur but our government has not and you do not speak for the official chosen foreign policy of our country. I couldn’t care less what one person thinks. What about Cambodia, Indonesia, Armenia, Rwanda, or Nanking–did they not deserve America’s benevolence? The only place we have gone is Bosnia to help some more white people.

Do you not remember what happened in Somalia when all we tried to do was feed people–we couldn’t even do that?[/quote]

The US was involved in Cambodia. It was when the cowards decided to flee SE Asia that the real slaughter began.

We went to war with Japan because we were trying to stifle their imperial ambitions so another Nanking would not occur.

25

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The US was involved in Cambodia. It was when the cowards decided to flee SE Asia that the real slaughter began.

We went to war with Japan because we were trying to stifle their imperial ambitions so another Nanking would not occur.
[/quote]
Khmer Rouge was a result of our involvement in Vietnam because we wanted and “ally”–one more data point against our foreign policy.

Japan was a legitimate war as far as I am concerned but we didn’t go to help Nanjing before we were attacked.

26

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
kroby wrote:
And let USSR take over? That was your worst case scenario. Is that “letting nature take it’s course?”

Perhaps the cold-war would have ended much sooner when they over extended themselves–the US is going that route soon.[/quote]

You’ve forgotten the brutality of the Soviet Union. It’s to this you’re turning a blind eye when you let nature take it’s course. It’s this same blind eye you bemoan wrt “[quote]Cambodia, Indonesia, Armenia, Rwanda, or Nanking–did they not deserve America’s benevolence?[/quote]”

[quote]
Life sucks for some people! Get over it.

You may have spoken about Darfur but our government has not and you do not speak for the official chosen foreign policy of our country. I couldn’t care less what one person thinks. What about Cambodia, Indonesia, Armenia, Rwanda, or Nanking–did they not deserve America’s benevolence? The only place we have gone is Bosnia to help some more white people.

Do you not remember what happened in Somalia when all we tried to do was feed people–we couldn’t even do that?[/quote]

The haphazard foreign policy aside, I believe America is right in offering aid to those that wish for liberty. I understand your interest in isolationist ideals. However, we cannot stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best internationally.

When a great injustice is perpetrated (ie Darfur), we as humans should rise up and put a stop to it. Not just our country, all countries. You see the ones that don’t? Russia, China… you think their (in)actions are responsible? You’d have America be the same as them? Turn a blind eye?

The country you believe in is far different than the country I believe in. We can help. We have the means, we’re not a third world country. So it costs us. We’re not living in mud huts.

27

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
new2training wrote:
What do you think would have happened had we not become involved?

Serious question.

Really hard for me to say, though I have done some serious speculating.

Worst case scenario, Germany would have expanded outward to the Russian frontier and taken France and Britain as well; best case scenario, Russia would have prevented it from the Eastern Front and might have taxed Germany too heavily, militarily–in effect saving France and Britain. I really doubt they would have been able to hold on to these places as long as Russia was in the picture.

Here’s an other scenario I envisioned:

Because Japan attacked us directly and we used nuclear weapons on them in response I really think we could have applied more “pressure” on Germany and need not have engaged them directly. We could have armed France and Britain and they could have done the job themselves–or could have threatened to. I think this would have also given Russia pause on their expansionist enterprise as well.

In short, WWII in Europe could have been a commercial enterprise and not a military one. My opinion is that our involvement in WWII only made the “Cold War” possible because we were in Russia’s “territory” and viewed European interests as our own.

Let the flaming begin…[/quote]

Thanks for the response Liftic.

I can understand the urge to remain more on a defensive posture and I also realize we can’t be the world’s police. However, I tend to agree with Kroby of this one.

I believe the stakes were too high in the European theater for us to stay out of it militarily. I’m not sure if our friends in Europe could have held out on their own. Even if they could have the brutality they would have endured would have been unbearable to behold.

The brutality would not have remained contained in Europe either.

The next genocide would have been in Africa and the middle east.

Even if/when Germany fell, we needed to have a force in Europe to balance the Soviet presence. If we did not, Western Europe could not have stood against them (after defeating the Germans and Italy.

We would not have one the cold war if the Soviets ruled all of Eurasia and North Africa.

In the end, it was in our self interests and in the best interests of the human race to step in. We should have probably been involved sooner in my opinion.

Edit:

In rereading this it sounds like a statement of fact. Not meant to come off like that. Just my opinion.