[quote]Croooz wrote:
Strawman? WOW. I continue to bring up that I hold the scriptures up to be the final authority and you choose not to and there’s a strawman there?
You guys are stuck in your fact that you need more than the Bible. You need every other teaching of your Apostolic Fathers…that’s fine. [/quote]
Our apostolic fathers wrote and edited your bible.
[quote]der Koning wrote:
PK,
Okay, I must apologize for being insulting.
Stellar Horizon, did provide some good links and some thoughtul responses. I can’t help but get the feeling that that this talk about Apostolic Succesion and Lineage is thinly veiled ethnocentric pride; but admittedly I’m completely ignorant about the Orthodox Church.[/quote]
Which ethnicity? I’m Scottish and German. Keep in mind that by 900 AD, 70% of the people in Europe and Asia and over half of Africa were Orthodox.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
der Koning wrote:
PK,
Okay, I must apologize for being insulting.
Stellar Horizon, did provide some good links and some thoughtul responses. I can’t help but get the feeling that that this talk about Apostolic Succesion and Lineage is thinly veiled ethnocentric pride; but admittedly I’m completely ignorant about the Orthodox Church.
Which ethnicity? I’m Scottish and German. Keep in mind that by 900 AD, 70% of the people in Europe and Asia and over half of Africa were Orthodox.
[/quote]
Like I said I’m totally ignorant about the orthodox church.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Croooz wrote:
Strawman? WOW. I continue to bring up that I hold the scriptures up to be the final authority and you choose not to and there’s a strawman there?
You guys are stuck in your fact that you need more than the Bible. You need every other teaching of your Apostolic Fathers…that’s fine.
Our apostolic fathers wrote and edited your bible.
[/quote]
The thing, I don’t consider them to be YOUR church fathers any more then mine; what constitutes THE ONE true church? Anyways Stellar Horizon provided me with some info to digest; I will go and read that before I make any more blanket statements about the orthodox church.
JeffR,
[quote]JeffR wrote:
pkradgeek, crooz, stellarhorizon,
I wanted to let you know that there are other Gods that have illuminated my existence.
One of my all time favorites is: DEOHAKO
…
DEOHAKO!!! Worship the holy gourd!!!
JeffR[/quote]
And I thought Mummu was the LAST ANSWER??? Can I go and start calling you a satan-equivalent now, claiming that you fell from the ONLY TRUE BELIEF? We could have a schism, and send each other insulting messages arguing that THE TRUE SCRIPTURE is only right if translated personally from Urdu to Anasazi? Oh, THE ONLY TRUTH is sooo much fun…
Eeeaah! Eeeeah!
Mulekun 
Jeffy, nice try. But these guys are WAY into this. I think that they are blinded to the one truth which is…
AMATERASU OMIKAMI
The Great Goddess Spirit Shining in Heaven, this Japanese Sun Goddess ruled weaving and agriculture. Disgusted with her brother because of his violence toward women, Amaterasu enclosed herself in a cave and refused to come out. Eight hundred deities gathered outside her self-made isolation and tried to lure her out with a loud celebration. Hearing the loud commentaries on an erotic dance being performed by the crone Goddess Ame No Uzume, Amaterasu emerged, overcome with curiosity. Seeing her radiance reflected in a mirror that had been set up outside the entrance, she was amazed at her brilliance which she had never seen before. She returned to the world and life was renewed.
Now if that isn’t a message of hope for us all, I don’t know what is. Sun worship kicks ass. It’s definitely better than hippie worship.
You guys are just not acting like adults. Bad form.
Does God’s involvement in producing the Bible mean anything or are the ‘Apostles’ or any other men more important? God is the author of the Bible and all Christian teaching not any apostles or the church or what have you.
How did anyone who lived before Jesus exercise faith and have God’s approval without the ‘church’ or the apostles?
Stellar_horizon you tread some very dangerous ground with assertions that you can add one word to the Bible. Perhaps remember these words of Revelation 22:18,19 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away…”
Additionally, why did the apostle Paul defer authoritative decisions on Christian doctrine regarding the early teachings to ones who were not apostles? “…and the apostles AND older men gathered to see about this affair.” Acts 15:6. This affair was what Paul and Barnabas came to Jerusalem to ascertain the answer to rather than answer themselves. Obviously they didn’t see themselves as having the authority to do so.
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
[quote]dond1esel wrote:
You guys are just not acting like adults. Bad form.[/quote]
So I suppose that getting into a debate over stuff like the lineage of apostles and the priesthood and the intrinsic value of that lineage as it applies to ONE TRUE way to God is more adult?
Don’t talk down to me and my faith in Amaterasu you elitist pig. Just because there are more people that worship Jesus than the sun doesn’t mean that you have the market cornered on religious faith. My undying belief in Amaterasu holds just as much water in this life and the one beyond as your belief in Jesus as your savior.
Hey!!!
At least I didn’t put three exclamation points after every sentence!!!
Thank You!!!
Yeah, it’s a pretty adult discussion. The resolution of which, everyone can benefit from knowing. You on the other hand…
Didn’t you have something better to do with your time than searching for and gratuitously displaying pagan religious jargon in the middle of a Christian theological debate? Donkey!
…Of course you did; you’re just doing it so that I’ll write this post. You’re in sub-donkey territory now.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Stellar_horizon you tread some very dangerous ground with assertions that you can add one word to the Bible. Perhaps remember these words of Revelation 22:18,19 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away…”
[/quote]
Its called Apocryphal. BY 50 AD the church (which included John’s own flock) took it to mean that Revelation was not to be read (in part) in the weekly services because it was easy to misinterpret (as so many protestants have).
If you haven’t been baptized in the Orthodox church you can not understand Revelation.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Stellar_horizon you tread some very dangerous ground with assertions that you can add one word to the Bible. Perhaps remember these words of Revelation 22:18,19 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away…”
[/quote]
And the Protestants have removed several BOOKS from the bible-because they didn’t understand them.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Does God’s involvement in producing the Bible mean anything or are the ‘Apostles’ or any other men more important? God is the author of the Bible and all Christian teaching not any apostles or the church or what have you.
How did anyone who lived before Jesus exercise faith and have God’s approval without the ‘church’ or the apostles?
Stellar_horizon you tread some very dangerous ground with assertions that you can add one word to the Bible. Perhaps remember these words of Revelation 22:18,19 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away…”
Additionally, why did the apostle Paul defer authoritative decisions on Christian doctrine regarding the early teachings to ones who were not apostles? “…and the apostles AND older men gathered to see about this affair.” Acts 15:6. This affair was what Paul and Barnabas came to Jerusalem to ascertain the answer to rather than answer themselves. Obviously they didn’t see themselves as having the authority to do so.
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
[/quote]
Thank you. So it’s not just me after all.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Additionally, why did the apostle Paul defer authoritative decisions on Christian doctrine regarding the early teachings to ones who were not apostles? “…and the apostles AND older men gathered to see about this affair.” Acts 15:6. This affair was what Paul and Barnabas came to Jerusalem to ascertain the answer to rather than answer themselves. Obviously they didn’t see themselves as having the authority to do so.
[/quote]
I want to clear something up. The Orthodox Church fathers are not infallable in their writing. Only councils of bishops representing each city working together make decisions for the Orthodox church. But to be clear, most of the theological debates of Orthodoxy were agreed upon by 500. Its not like we meet and invent theology like the Romans “Purgatory” or “Holy Days of Obligation”. An appointed representative of apostolic succession from each city meets. They discuss what tradition their founding apostles brought to them, and they historically have found one another to be in 99% agreement. The other 1% are called heresies.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
[/quote]
Ok so you are not a believer in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He established. That’s fine and dandy by me. laters pk
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Now if that isn’t a message of hope for us all, I don’t know what is. Sun worship kicks ass. [/quote]
Amen.
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
Ok so you are not a believer in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He established. That’s fine and dandy by me. laters pk[/quote]
Where do you possibly make a link between what you’ve quoted me saying and your reply? I’m speechless at the seeming irrelevance of your point. Interestingly you don’t question the historical FACT that all the geneological records were destroyed in 70 AD making it impossible for any today to claim apostolic succession. Kinda makes the whole succession arguments moot. The ability to establish lineage was only critical to establishing the identity of the Messiah(as far as Christians are concerned). Once the Messiah had arrived and his lineage authenticated lineage really didn’t matter anymore, hence God allowed all the records to be destroyed in his own judgement against Jerusalem.
This hang-up a number of you on this thread have on apostolic succession seems to make the time from 33AD to the time the first gospels were written(approx. 20 years) of monumental importance. An important time period of course, but any importance to us was recorded in the the portions of the Bible written later. You want to make the Bible, which was in development for approx. 1500 years BEFORE the apostles were ever picked, inferior. Why would you want to do that?
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
Ok so you are not a believer in The Lord Jesus Christ and what He established. That’s fine and dandy by me. laters pk[/quote]
Strawman. The point is the destruction of the geneological records and claiming authentic lineage and NOT belief in Jesus Christ or what He established.
This is where the differences lie: Some here believe in the Church as in the Orthodox church or Roman Catholic church and others believe in the Church of Christian believers…not a static building but a dynamic group of believers.
Since I seem to be resident idiot here let’s at least keep this on topic and not snipe. Stellar is doing a fine job addressing Orthodoxy. If you can do nothing else than snipe and/or erect strawmen then please refrain from posting. In contrast I enjoy the Moomoo and such post because it brings some needed levity to an otherwise deep and abrasive discussion.
The issue I have with the Apocrypha is there are 263 direct quotations of the O.T. found in the N.T. Beside this, there are 370 statements found in the N.T. which are references to passages in the O.T. In both the O.T. and N.T., there are no quotes and no allusions to any of the writings of the Apocrypha.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Does God’s involvement in producing the Bible mean anything or are the ‘Apostles’ or any other men more important? God is the author of the Bible and all Christian teaching not any apostles or the church or what have you.[/quote]
If God is the author of the Bible, then why are the 21 epistles contained within signed off by Apostles James, Peter, John, Jude, & Paul rather than Jesus Christ Himself? Why have theologians attributed the Gospel according to four different authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John rather than Jesus Christ Himself? I pose the same question to you regarding Acts of the Apostles and Revelations.
God is not the author of the Bible as you claim. His chosen Apostles, on the other hand, actually were. Who were these Apostles who you almost seem to degrade? They were Divinely inspired humans who wrote and spoke things by the authority of the Holy Spirit. The Bible encompasses the written expression of these Apostles, but it does NOT encompass their oral expression. Unfortunately, audio recorders and video cameras didn’t exist back then to archive their oral expressions. Well then why didn’t they write everything down? Three reasons: (1)Papyrus was a very expensive commodity in ancient times.
(2)Through speech, ideas are communicated much faster than when written, ie. what’s taken 10 minutes to write you would’ve taken 30 seconds to say. Since I’m unable to confront you in a face-to-face dialogue to speak with you, I have no other choice but to write to you.
(3)The Apostles knew that the Orthodox Church and all Her faithful would accept their teachings regardless of the manner they chose to communicate the proper Life in Christ.
In fact, the main reason the Apostles put anything in writing was when they were unable to actually visit and speak with those whom they were addressing. Confirm this by flipping through the Bible and reading every epistle within.
Furthermore, the Bible does NOT encompass the entirety of writings which these Divinely inspired humans formulated. Did you know Saint Paul developed a third letter to the Corinthians which was lost and couldn’t be entered in the New Testament canon of the 4th century which compiled the Bible? Had this letter to the Orthodox Christian church of Corinth survived, it too would’ve been included in the Bible.
Was the Orthodox Christian Church crippled by the loss of this third letter to the Corinthians? Of’ course not! St. Paul’s teachings were still preserved within the Church via oral transmission. Is it appropriate to exclude teachings of the early Church simply because they aren’t contained in the Bible? Of’ course not! For even St. Paul implored us long ago to preserve the teachings of the Apostles, whether transmitted through verbal or written communication:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
“Therefore brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by WORD or our epistle.”
The Bible contains fragments of the Truth. The Orthodox Christian Church contains the totality of the Truth. Peace be with you.