Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
782

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
A while back Pookie said the following to me:

“The problem with your “belief” is that while you can see that others hold different “beliefs”, you can’t allow for the possibility that those “beliefs” are just as valid as yours.” [/quote]

In the context of people of differing faiths or religions arguing on which one is the “right” one.

Everyone argues that there is only one valid faith. Of course it also always is the one they’re currently following.

[quote]Pookie ALSO said this to me:

“But I’m not a Christian. I do not accept your christian axioms. So for me, by definition, your axioms are invalid.”[/quote]

In the sense that you can’t call them “axioms” in the usual accepted meaning for that word. Axioms are statements that are accepted as true on their own merits. Your christian axioms require christian “faith” to be accepted; hence they aren’t axioms and can’t be used as such.

The problem here is that there is no such thing as “atheistical beliefs”. Atheism is the lack of beliefs. I’ve addressed that previously on this thread.

It’s not dogma, but simple logic. You believe things for which there is no evidence. God, Heaven, souls, etc.

So, yes, by definition you are wrong. The Flat Earth Society has members. They firmly believe the Earth is flat, contrary to all evidence that it is sphere-like. Ergo, they are wrong in their beliefs. In their case, it’s easy to see, since there exists ample evidence to the contrary.

In your case, no one can prove that heaven does not exist, or the soul or whatever. You can’t prove it either. So you accept it “by faith” and believe it to be true. There still is no evidence for it, but you act as if there was. That’s where you’re wrong.

You can’t prove that unicorns don’t exist. You can’t prove that we don’t have “auras” visible on some metaphysical plane and so on. You could have “faith” and believe that unicorns have truly beautiful auras but such beliefs, while just as “valid” for the faithful would still be wrong.

That’s what I meant when I said that all beliefs could be equally valid. Since there is no evidence for any of them, they are all “equal” in the sense that they have no reasonable or logical foundation. If you prefer, they are all wrong, but none is “wronger” than any other. Each believer, if he is honest, truly believes what his faith tells him.

Huh? Is that supposed to mean something?

[quote]Am I putting too much emphasis on the words that were written by Pookie? The words “valid” and “invalid”-- and not the message behind them, which is “I will apply a standard to you which I am not willing to apply to myself.”
[/quote]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Previously, when I explained from where I derived my moral values, I specifically said that I recognized for others all rights I wanted for myself.

On the message, to make myself clear: I think the message from the New Testament part of the Bible is a valid one. The message of brotherly love and forgiveness. But we see very little of this message discussed on this thread; rather, we’ve got mental masturbation about how many beings compose God; whether someone can be a virgin and give birth; how many dunks to a baptism and so on.

It appears that those details are excrutiatingly important; because from what I can see, you can burn in Hell for Eternity if you’re one baptismal dunk short; no matter if you’ve followed the (supposedly important) message all your life. I find it amusing to see that your “personal gods” are so small-minded and petty. So obviously primitive human inventions…

783

Massif wrote:[quote]
I have said previously in other similar threads that I personally believe that many people, including yourself, SH, put too much emphasis on the words that were written and not the message behind them. I believe this the same way that you believe everyone else is wrong.[/quote]

pookie wrote:[quote]
I don’t believe it! Someone here actually makes sense! Alleluia![/quote]

Massif wrote:[quote]
The entire point of Baptism is to welcome Jesus into your heart and soul. In the end, I do not believe that Jesus would sit back and think “Screw this guy. The priest didn’t even say it in Aramaic”.[/quote]

pookie wrote:[quote]
Churches also charge for it (or at least “expect” a donation). They also get your name, your family’s name and other assorted infos that are quite useful for when they’ll need further “donations.”

Yes, I am a cynical man.[/quote]

Massif wrote:[quote]
I don’t even believe that a person has to be a member of a church to be “saved”. If a person welcomes Jesus into their heart and lives a good life, I believe that to be enough.[/quote]

pookie wrote:[quote]
You’re on the right track. Have you noticed that you can have a good heart and lead a good life without Jesus? The message existed long before he ever came along (ie, the “Golden Rule”).

If you must have some kind of “scripture” or written guidelines and principles, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a pretty good guide.[/quote]

Massif wrote:[quote]
Being a Christian is not about following every word ever written about Jesus to the letter. It is about believing in Jesus and the Big Man Upstairs, living a good, wholesome life, and helping your fellow man to do the same. Jesus never said “Follow the Orthodox Church to the letter”, he said “Believe in me”.[/quote]

pookie wrote:[quote]
“Living a good, wholesome life, and helping your fellow man to do the same.”

The rest is fluff.
[/quote]

Massif, as even the atheist has pointed out, you don’t need the Bible or Jesus Christ to be moral and “live a good life”. The demon-worshipping Hindues, Buddhists, and Taoists can even meet this criteria. What does Christ mean to you? Jesus Christ did not hang on that Cross just to introduce another faith into the world.

Bookmark this site:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/page6.htm

If you believe Jesus Christ is God, then you believe and honor His teachings as infallible. Jesus Christ preached that anyone who breaks even the [i]smallest[/i] of commandments is on the brink of damnation. Forget about murder, theft, rape, & adultery; Jesus Christ highlighted things like evil thoughts such as anger and lust, calling a brother or a friend “fool”, and failing to pray and forgive your enemy, etc. This goes [b]way[/b] beyond the morality of our world.

I don’t think [i]everyone[/i] else is wrong. There are millions upon millions of Orthodox Christians throughout the world that share the same Truth, Faith, and Lord of the early Christian Church exactly as I do. Mertdawg who lives some ~1800 miles away is a prime example. I didn’t even know him before this thread was initiated.

Anyways, when you refer to the method of an authentic baptism, the language of the service does not matter. The importance is primarily who conducts the baptism, and secondly, how the baptism is conducted. Some religious groups claim you don’t need to be baptized while others say you do. You either need to get baptized or you don’t. And if you think it doesn’t matter, then why on earth did Jesus Christ get baptized and instruct us to partake of this mystery? Everything He said and did had a particular meaning.

Granted, as mertdawg has pointed out, there are those who will experience the kingdom of God without having been authentically baptized, but that in no way signals the green light for us to stray from the proposed guidelines of baptism which Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught. Apostolic succession is key since the one who conducts the ceremony needs to be empowered by the authority and grace of the Holy Spirit just like the Twelve were. The ritual should also be conducted by triple immersion in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ instructed it. The member then should be anointed with chrism in another mystery (chrismation) so that the seal of the Holy Spirit will be set upon them.

What are the fruits of an authentic baptism?

[quote]b[/b][/quote] membership into the One Body of Christ

[quote]b[/b][/quote] remission of sins

[quote]b[/b][/quote] a Guardian angel being assigned to us by God
What are the fruits of chrismation?

[quote]b[/b][/quote] the seal of the Holy Spirit being set upon us

Every letter of the word is critical. Not one jot or tittle shall pass away… When Jesus Christ spoke with Saint Photini at the well (the Samaritan woman), He corrected the apparently minor infractions of her belief system. The Samaritans worshipped on another mountain and also adhered to other scriptures which prompted Jesus Christ to inform her that, “salvation is of the Jews”. Obviously, the specifics of where one worships, and how one is baptized, and what doctrines one adheres to in some way, shape, or form determine the difference between salvation and damnation.

Continue to believe in Jesus Christ and “the Big Man” upstairs, live a good, wholesome life, and help your fellow man, but remember that there’s more to it than that. As far as believing in Him goes, that’s the whole reason you should be a part of the Church which He established some 2,000 years ago. He commissioned the Church by selecting Eleven of the Twelve Apostles who participated in Pentecost. The Twelfth Apostle was selected by the grace of the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles themselves. Each generation of humans that participates in the Divine-Human Organization which is the Orthodox Christian Church will be united with Christ in the Second Coming as is recorded in Revelations.

If someone discounts the [b]totality of Christ’s teachings and traditions[/b] and the Church which He established (which was empowered by the Holy Spirit), then I continue to warn that this person’s soul is in grave spiritual danger.

I have lots of scriptural support to defend my statements, but since we discussed baptism, and you frown upon the use of scripture, I’ll post just one that sums things up quite concisely:

St. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ summoned the Apostles to Himself, NOT the multitudes of the faithful. He commands those who’ll possess Apostolic succession to conduct the mystery of baptism.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ also commands that the Apostles baptize in the names of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] The Apostles are to teach the nations to observe all that He has commanded them; ie. every single word (not just 3%, or 21%, or 59%, or 92%, but 100% of it!) If you truly believe you aren’t meant to live by every word of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then you’re picking & choosing what’s important and what’s not (which is the actual definition of a heretic). It is precisely this attitude amongst the faithful which obligates the Orthodox Christian Church to perform excommunications. And just so you think it’s a foreign tradition to excommunicate, the Apostles themselves implemented this tradition. Either follow everything Jesus Christ taught like an Orthodox Christian or follow nothing at all like an atheist. The decision is yours.

=======================================
As for you pookie, I believe that no one is good but God. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be the best that we can be, or as kind to our neighbors and those in need, but that when we’ve accomplished all our tasks for the day, we should still count ourselves unworthy. The faithful steward should expect no praise from the master after a hard day’s labor.

And regarding your issue with providing donations, I know of many parishes gathering funds to feed and clothe the homeless. Other funds go to pay the mortgage of the church while yet other funds go to support Christian communities that aren’t as financially stable. Think about Christian churches in a third world country like Sudan for example. Try spreading the Faith in a predominantly Muslim region without allocating financial resources from a Christian community that’s willing to donate support. Don’t the faithful in Sudan deserve an Orthodox Christian house of worship, an Orthodox Christian bishop to deliver the Eucharist, to baptize them, to confess them, and to conduct the blessed divine liturgies of the Apostles and all the other essential spiritual functions?

Either way, you don’t have to give a penny. The other day I walked into church and didn’t have any small bills to donate so I grabbed a few candles to light, and guess what, [b]nobody[/b] said a word when I didn’t throw any money in the basket. As far as any solicitation is involved, like providing my personal information, a social security number, household address, or my employer, I have yet to experience that with my church so I can’t relate. Next time that happens to you, defer on giving anything besides monetary support (and this too can be in the form of a few dollars or pocket change) if you’re suspicious of any sort of scam.

Peace be with both of you.

784

[quote]pookie wrote:
On the message, to make myself clear: I think the message from the New Testament part of the Bible is a valid one. The message of brotherly love and forgiveness. But we see very little of this message discussed on this thread; rather, we’ve got mental mstrb*t**n about how many beings compose God; whether someone can be a virgin and give birth; how many dunks to a baptism and so on.

It appears that those details are excrutiatingly important; because from what I can see, you can burn in Hell for Eternity if you’re one baptismal dunk short; no matter if you’ve followed the (supposedly important) message all your life. I find it amusing to see that your “personal gods” are so small-minded and petty. So obviously primitive human inventions…
[/quote]
pookie, what I find amusing is that when Biotest introduces a new supplement, they specify an optimal range of dosing and guidelines for consumption. Then T-Nation fans come along and ask if they can split up the dose, double-dose safely, combine this supplement with any other, etc. A scientist has gathered feedback and introduced a product based on a particular design. A bodybuilder will then put the supplement to the test to assess its efficacy and his personal tolerance.

So it is with Jesus Christ and the Saints. Jesus Christ introduced a belief system that leads mankind unto salvation based on the design of man’s current spiritual condition (which is fallen). We are to put this belief system into practice to assess our personal tolerance and spiritual health. The Saints are God-seers; those who’ve applied this system and eventually received His revelation in the noetic faculty of their hearts. The Saints testify (like the bodybuilder) that Jesus Christ’s system (like the scientist’s supplement) is highly efficacious.

There’s no need to tamper with a perfect supplement, just like there’s no need to tamper with a perfect Faith. If you don’t believe that the Faith which Jesus Christ preached was perfect, then you’re obviously not going to apply the totality of the belief system He introduced. You want someone to preach about brotherly love and forgiveness? I believe I’ve done that a few times in this thread. If you think the buck stops there though, you’re ([b]spiritually[/b]) dead wrong.

The Saints communicated aspects of the Faith which go way beyond brotherly love & forgiveness. The Nicolaitans preached brotherly love & forgiveness yet approved of sexual immorality; was God fully revealed in their hearts? No! The Arians preached brotherly love & forgiveness yet denied the divinity of Christ; was God fully revealed in their hearts? No! So it is evident, that anyone who does NOT bear witness by experience to the revelation of the Holy Trinity is not bearing the kingdom of heaven in their heart; God is not fully revealed within them. I believe in the Holy Trinity not because this dogma was revealed to me in my own noetic faculty, but because I maintain Faith in the testimony and dogmas of the God-seers and miracle-makers who came in the Holy Name of the Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

What I consider petty is how the Savior and His Apostles preached One Truth, One Faith, and One Body, yet man in his feebleness decides he’s going to deviate from it, just because God’s given him free will to do so.

Fallen man is always challenging God to save us:

Gee Bob, will dunking someone twice rather than three times effect their salvation?

I don’t know Robert, let’s try it and find out!

Gee Bob, I wonder if we tamper around with the scriptures and develop new theology if Jesus Christ will get mad at us.

I was thinking the same thing, let’s give it a shot!

Gee Bob, I was just figuring that maybe fasting, and praying, and going to church weren’t really all that important since the Giants are playing this Sunday afternoon. What do you think? Isn’t loving your brother and forgiving enough?

Yeah, I think we should just forget about all the other rules and regulations. The only ones I really care about involve football! Woohoo! Pass me a cold one buddy!

785

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
As for you pookie, I believe that no one is good but God. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be the best that we can be, or as kind to our neighbors and those in need, but that when we’ve accomplished all our tasks for the day, we should still count ourselves unworthy. The faithful steward should expect no praise from the master after a hard day’s labor.[/quote]

Yeah, yeah, I heard the drill before. No matter how hard you try; how much effort you put into it, at the end of everyday you’re still a wicked sinner.

Christianity has elevated the abnegation of pleasure to a masterful art.

I’d suggest the Red Cross or Oxfam for your donations.

786

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
pookie, what I find amusing is that when Biotest introduces a new supplement, they specify an optimal range of dosing and guidelines for consumption. Then T-Nation fans come along and ask if they can split up the dose, double-dose safely, combine this supplement with any other, etc.[/quote]

Actually, it’d be nice if posologies where given by bodyweight. Seems to me that 5g of creatine, for exampe, won’t have the same effect on a 115 pound woman and a 250 pound man.

The main point, though, is that you can test different dosage and interactions and arrive at values that can be objectively justified.

Why not take 100g of creatine per day? Well, you’ll excrete most of it, it’ll stress this or that organ, and you won’t see any more effect than with 30g. (Hypothetical example).

[quote]A scientist has gathered feedback and introduced a product based on a particular design. A bodybuilder will then put the supplement to the test to assess its efficacy and his personal tolerance.

So it is with Jesus Christ and the Saints. Jesus Christ introduced a belief system that leads mankind unto salvation based on the design of man’s current spiritual condition (which is fallen). We are to put this belief system into practice to assess our personal tolerance and spiritual health. The Saints are God-seers; those who’ve applied this system and eventually received His revelation in the noetic faculty of their hearts. The Saints testify (like the bodybuilder) that Jesus Christ’s system (like the scientist’s supplement) is highly efficacious.[/quote]

That’s crap. There’s no way to test anything. Those “saints” are gone, like everybody else who’s dead; they’re not testifying anything, except in your mind.

Perfect supplement? No such thing. Perfect faith? Faith is a weird mental defect as far as I can see. The only “perfect” faith is none at all.

You can argue the details of all your rituals 'til your blue in the face; the number of dunks is an insignificant detail of an insignifcant ritual; and the same goes for all the other ones.

The important part is the values; how you act. What you think or what you say also has some importance, but what you do is where it’s at. (Or should be, anyway).

Don’t tell me they let go of the abnegation of pleasure part…

So you don’t believe in the Trinity by yourself, but because someone else believed it?

Yeah, well man has been around for about 100,000 years (give or take); and only 2,000 years ago was God able to fit us in his busy schedule; so you’ll have to allow a little more time for those bad “free will” habits to wear off.

Rationality is quite fun, you should try it sometimes. You’ll find it a welcome change from “feebleness”.

[quote]
Fallen man is always challenging God to save us:
Robert:
Gee Bob, will dunking someone twice rather than three times effect their salvation?
Bob:
I don’t know Robert, let’s try it and find out!
Robert:
Gee Bob, I wonder if we tamper around with the scriptures and develop new theology if Jesus Christ will get mad at us.
Bob:
I was thinking the same thing, let’s give it a shot!
Robert:
Gee Bob, I was just figuring that maybe fasting, and praying, and going to church weren’t really all that important since the Giants are playing this Sunday afternoon. What do you think? Isn’t loving your brother and forgiving enough?
Bob:
Yeah, I think we should just forget about all the other rules and regulations. The only ones I really care about involve football! Woohoo! Pass me a cold one buddy![/quote]

Two men actually enjoying life and having fun in their free time. An end must be put to this! Quick, before they stop paying their taxes and become child-rapists!

787

[quote]pookie wrote:
In the sense that you can’t call them “axioms” in the usual accepted meaning for that word. Axioms are statements that are accepted as true on their own merits. Your christian axioms require christian “faith” to be accepted; hence they aren’t axioms and can’t be used as such.[/quote]

All philosophies, whether theistic or atheistic have axioms. They all start their thinking somewhere. They all say that their axioms are to be accepted as true on their own merits. Your atheistical axioms require atheistic “faith” (i.e., foolishness) to be accepted; but does it follow from this that they aren’t axioms and can’t be used as such? Of course not.

So the belief that there is no God, is not a belief? A belief in the big bang theory is not a belief? No, that’s not what you’re saying is it? Nope. You are saying basically that Atheism lacks belief in fairy tales. Tell me Pookie, what is YOUR view of the origin of man and the universe? Is it as scientific, logical, and as reasonable as Dr. Crick’s theory of “Directed Panspermia”? This ought to be good. I’ll try not to laugh.

[quote]pookie wrote: It’s not dogma, but simple logic. You believe things for which there is no evidence. God, Heaven, souls, etc. So, yes, by definition you are wrong. The Flat Earth Society has members. They firmly believe the Earth is flat, contrary to all evidence that it is sphere-like. Ergo, they are wrong in their beliefs. In their case, it’s easy to see, since there exists ample evidence to the contrary.
[/quote]

Simple logic huh? That’s funny since I don’t see any evidence for the big bang theory, or whichever modification of it that you happen to hold to.

What do the ‘big bang’ advocates usually start with? Don’t they usually start with some kind of swirling mass before the actual bang happened. Well, where did that swirling mass come from? Is there some sort of power behind the swirling mass? Was it always there, from eternity past? Also Pookie, what exactly would you call “ample evidence” for the existence of God? What to you, would be considered irrefutable evidence of the existence of God?

[quote]pookie wrote: In your case, no one can prove that heaven does not exist, or the soul or whatever. You can’t prove it either. So you accept it “by faith” and believe it to be true. There still is no evidence for it, but you act as if there was. That’s where you’re wrong.

You can’t prove that unicorns don’t exist. You can’t prove that we don’t have “auras” visible on some metaphysical plane and so on. You could have “faith” and believe that unicorns have truly beautiful auras but such beliefs, while just as “valid” for the faithful would still be wrong.[/quote]

You believe the big bang theory (or whatever) to be true, don’t you? Yet there is no evidence for it, but you act as if there was.

There is no evidence for your beliefs. From what you have said thus far, your beliefs have no reasonable or logical foundation. Is it reasonable and logical to conclude that something comes from nothing? Life from non-life? Matter or particles, after “billions and billions” of years, somehow turn into people? Sounds real reasonable all right.

A very “logical” and “reasonable” man named Dr. Francis Crick–Nobel Prize winning scientist credited with codiscovering DNA–concluded that it would be impossible for one cell to have evolved, even if one assumed the earth to be 4.5 billion years old. Thus the Dr. concluded that it was not reasonable to hold to that particular theory, in fact, downright impossible. Now will the Dr. own up to the truth that the “unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse”? No, he will not. He will continue to suppress this truth, which he does by developing a new theory called “Directed Panspermia.” This theory of Crick’s states that some sperm of an advanced living race somewhere in the galaxy seeded the human race on earth. This was (or still is) a popular theory being taught in many colleges–or so I hear. Again, sounds real reasonable.

I (extol)wrote: This is simply to expose Pookie’s hypocritical dookie.

Yeah. The charge of hypocritical dookie still stands. Oh, what does it mean? It means that you apply the standard of “evidence equals valid. No evidence equals invalid”; And yet, there is no evidence** for your beliefs and yet you insist that they are not only valid, but true, logical, and reasonable.

** I think that you even admitted regarding the Big Bang theory that it?s “just the best one we have right now”–or something along those lines.

788

[quote]pookie wrote: It appears that those details are excrutiatingly important; because from what I can see, you can burn in Hell for Eternity if you’re one baptismal dunk short; no matter if you’ve followed the (supposedly important) message all your life. I find it amusing to see that your “personal gods” are so small-minded and petty. So obviously primitive human inventions…
[/quote]

The “personal gods” of idolaters are most definitely human inventions. They set up idols and worship them instead of the true and living God of the Bible. So what distinguishes the true God from the false gods (idols) that are manufactured in the vain reasonings of unregenerate man?

Now, I could just say, “The God of the Bible is the true God, and any god that’s contrary to the God of the Bible is a false God.” And I would be right in saying this. But how many religionists who come in the name of Christianity, at least conservative Christianity would say they agree with this statement? Pretty close to 100% of religionists who come in the name of conservative Christianity or “evangelicalism” would say they agree with this statement. So I need to be more specific in naming the things that distinguish the true God from all idols.

God is distinguished from false gods in that He CONTROLS what He CREATES (Isaiah 40:12-28; 46:5-11).

So not only is God the Creator of all things, God is Sovereign over all things, and He accomplishes whatever He desires in all things. Any god who is not in total control of all things is an idol.

Many so-called “evangelicals” will even say they agree with THIS, although there are fewer that agree with this than agree that God is the creator. But you weed out many of them when you show them the truth that God is in ACTIVE control of all things, INCLUDING all actions of human beings. God does not have a “permissive will.” For if God merely “permits” something to happen rather than actively controlling what happens, then there is some kind of power that is independent of God, that God just lets happen or does not let happen. This is not the God of the Bible. Here is a Scripture passage that proves this:

Deuteronomy 32:39: “See now that I, I am He, and there is no other God with Me. I kill, and I keep alive. I wound and I heal, and there is no deliverer from My hand.”

Is God permitting anything here? No. He is actively causing.

Here’s a few passages that show that God is in control of the actions of men:

Proverbs 16:4: “Jehovah has made all for His purpose, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

Proverbs 21:1: “As streams of waters, the king’s heart is in the hand of Jehovah; He turns it wherever He desires.”

That’s enough for now. So, as you can see Pookie, the God of the Bible is altogether unique and different than the idols of men’s imaginations. Not many “professing Christians” believe in the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible actively controls what you do, say, and think Pookie. And this is not a human invention, for human inventions say things like “there is no God”, or “there is an impotent little idol god who wishes that you would let him save you.” What say you to that?

789

I just popped on to read this post since it is so popular and was blown away… I only read excerpts but some of you people are really out there… I had no idea that this side of T-Nation existed…

I guess TC will sell protein powder to anyone, even the crazies who invoke the power of God and “the evil one” into their online rhetoric…

-Speechless

790

[quote]usdsig wrote:
I just popped on to read this post since it is so popular and was blown away… I only read excerpts but some of you people are really out there… I had no idea that this side of T-Nation existed…

I guess TC will sell protein powder to anyone, even the crazies who invoke the power of God and “the evil one” into their online rhetoric…

-Speechless[/quote]

Crazies need their protein, too.

791

[quote]usdsig wrote:
I just popped on to read this post since it is so popular and was blown away… I only read excerpts but some of you people are really out there… I had no idea that this side of T-Nation existed…

I guess TC will sell protein powder to anyone, even the crazies who invoke the power of God and “the evil one” into their online rhetoric…

-Speechless[/quote]

LOL!! Shut up dude, they might stop… :slight_smile:

792

[quote] pookie wrote:
Your “savior” has a debatable historical existence as far as I’m concerned; and IF he actually existed, he MIGHT have been an exceptional man, but certainly of mortal origin. The only sure thing is that whatever story the gospels relate, that story has been embellished many times over, to the point that it is now mythology.
[/quote]

Pookie-

I must have skimmed over this one the first time and missed it. You assert that the historical existence of Jesus Christ is debatable? Wow. I don’t know what your profession is, but it certainly cannot be a historian. Or, if you are presently employed as a historian, you’d better start looking for work elsewhere since you just lost your reputation as a credible historian. Man, virtually no historian would dare question it. Not even the pagan Celsus–who despised Christ and denied His deity–ever considered claiming that Jesus Christ did not have a historical existence.

Again, absolutely amazing. There can’t be many atheists like you who will make a rational and reasonable statement like that.

793

extol7extol,
Although I continue to denounce as heresy your belief that God controls humans (thus rendering us without a free will to act or think), I’m in accord with almost every other statement you’ve posted on this thread. I could refute your understanding of the passages you’ve cited by calling upon the authority of the early Church to settle the issue.

If there is but one article I would have you read, it would be this:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sola_scriptura_john_whiteford.htm
Take some time to read it, and then hit me off with a pm. I’d be interested in knowing what you think.

Peace be with you!

794

pookie,
Christians are people teaching you about concepts you understand only on the shallowest of levels. When you observe a tree, you see the bark, the branches, the fruits, and the leaves but testify that the tree must be hollow and have no roots beneath the soil. You need to grab an axe to start chopping and a shovel to start digging. Hopefully you do this sooner rather than later because when you die and a lumberjack chops that tree down and makes a coffin from its heartwood, and a gravedigger sets your burial 6-feet under along its deepest of roots, it’ll be too late for you to change your views or ways. By then, the epitaph [i]Rest in Peace[/i] may well be irrelevant in describing you.

795

[quote]usdsig wrote:
I guess TC will sell protein powder to anyone, even the crazies who invoke the power of God and “the evil one” into their online rhetoric…
[/quote]
How ironic that three glorious Crosses should decorate the crown depicted in your avatar. Just remember, every knee shall bow to the Great King in that Day of Judgment.

Revelations 17:14
“These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Better to remain this way until you come to your spiritual senses.

796

So Stellar,

I’m still interested in why your God is worthy of our admiration.

797

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:

-Speechless

Better to remain this way until you come to your spiritual senses.[/quote]

Witty… You are right about one thing, I should not have posted- I have nothing constructive to add to your conversation… If you are happy, great…

BTW, the avatar is the logo for Columbia Universiy, which got its start as King’s College in the 1800’s or so… as you probably know, most of the earliest universities were founded on religious core beliefs…

798

[quote]doogie wrote:
So Stellar,

I’m still interested in why your God is worthy of our admiration.[/quote]

You would not believe me, even if I gave you a hundred reasons, but I shall provide you with three:

b[/b] He created man physically and spiritually to reign with Him in glory over all creation.

b[/b] He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to rejuvenate mankind after we became dead in sin.

b[/b] He guides sinners onto the path of salvation thru His Body, the Orthodox Christian Church, so that we commune with Him and be purified, illuminated, and sanctified and thus be prepared to experience the reign of God’s kingdom within our hearts.

799

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
doogie wrote:
So Stellar,

I’m still interested in why your God is worthy of our admiration.

You would not believe me, even if I gave you a hundred reasons, but I shall provide you with three:[/quote]

I’m honestly interested. Nothing so far on this thread makes me see this God as the kind of guy I’d want to drink a beer with, much less worship.

[quote]
b[/b] He created man physically and spiritually to reign with Him in glory over all creation.[/quote]

I don’t exactly understand what you mean by this. From everything you’ve written on this thread, God created men to follow a set of very narrowly defined rules (Orthodoxy). That makes us at best servants, and at worse playthings.

[quote]
b[/b] He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to rejuvenate mankind after we became dead in sin.[/quote]

I don’t understand why this is a good thing. He created the sin we commit. He created us the way we are, he created everything we interact with, he had to know how we’d turn out. It’s like punching us in the nose, and then being worshipped for giving us an ice pack.

And I really don’t get what you see as glorious about sacrificing your only son. First, it’s not like God couldn’t make more kids if he wanted them. Second, God could have just snapped his fingers and wiped the slate clean. Why let an innocent suffer? Third, he killed his son only to have mankind end up right back in sin? Not a great plan.

[quote]
b[/b] He guides sinners onto the path of salvation thru His Body, the Orthodox Christian Church, so that we commune with Him and be purified, illuminated, and sanctified and thus be prepared to experience the reign of God’s kingdom within our hearts.[/quote]

There is really no way to respond to this without coming across as a total A-hole, so I’ll leave that alone.

800

Some interesting questions to reason on:

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, where would they be now?

Were Adam and Eve warned they would go to hell if they disobeyed?

Who/what did Job think was causing his problems and was he wrong or right?

Why does the bible relate Jesus to Adam and in what way?

Not too many for now.

Go.

801

God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions.

He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind.

-St Anthony as quoted in the Philokalia (Chap. 150)