http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1115000334240.hell.jpg
So, anyone who is not Orthodox is going to Hell, right?
In addition to the obvious infidels, like muslims and hindus and buddhist, all baptist, methodist, lutherans, catholics, etc are going to burn in hell forever. Yes or no?
[quote]pookie wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
See, in the sky there stands a shining circle, and from it light is born and warmth is emitted. God the Father, like the solar disk, is without beginning or end.
Unfortunately, our sun had a beginning and will also have an end. Once it finishes fusioning hydrogen into helium and helium to other heavier elements, it will burn out.
Each can distinguish separately the solar disk, and light, and warmth, but the sun is one in the sky. So is the Holy Trinity: three Persons in Him, but one and indivisible God.
The sun, it’s light and the warmth you feel aren’t three different distinct things; they’re all the same one thing.
Would you say that because a table has a surface, some legs and a color that it is a trinity of things in one?
Also, the Indians (from India) had their trinity god (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva all being aspects of the same god) way before the church decided to borrow the concept (it is a cool one, after all) and make it “dogma”.
Is someone who follows dogma a dogman?[/quote]
Again, these are tangential arguments against the specifics of analogies. Lets stick to the topic.
If you want an analogy, how about spacetime, matter and gravity?
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Matthew 28:18
Go, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
(God is trinity. “Baptize in the name”, not the names. “Teach them to observe” if the Bible stood alone, shouldn’t it say-give them a copy?)[/quote]
mertdawg how can you put this stuff out there without utter embarrassment? Most bible versions will repeat ‘name’ before each of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But that’s neither here nor there. Allow me to give you an English lesson. If the verse had said ‘name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ your argument might seem to hold water to the uneducated eye. However each is broken up by saying ‘and of the’ before each element. Therefore the word ‘name’, by language rules, would be inferred as applying to each element in the verse.
Or let me put it all more simply. If I said to get baptized in the name of the cat, and of the dog and of the neighbors squirrel would you assume they all have the same name? Yeah I think you should be gettin’ it by now.
Case dismissed.
And the ‘teach them to observe’ part. If you knew your bible you’d recognize NOBODY became a Christian without being taught. No, simply reading the bible(or part thereof) would leave you in the same boat as the Ethiopian Eunuch who answered Philip’s question if he knew what he was reading(from Isaiah) with the words ‘How could I ever do so unless someone guided me?’ Acts 8:26-31
[quote]futuredave wrote:
So, anyone who is not Orthodox is going to Hell, right?
In addition to the obvious infidels, like muslims and hindus and buddhist, all baptist, methodist, lutherans, catholics, etc are going to burn in hell forever. Yes or no?[/quote]
Nope, we covered that a while back. Thats a Latin "painting: by the way.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Open question to my religious friends: Do you think that the world is coming to an end anytime soon? Like in the next thousand years or so? Seriously.[/quote]
To be at the end of the world is to be outside of time. The universe SHOULD last (in its reference frame) for what about 100 billion more years, but if you were falling into a black hole for example, in your reference frame you would experience things speeded up to the end.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
mertdawg,
Our opponent proclaims,
“To believe the Trinity idea put forth by the Council of Nicea is to completely distort and muddy the clear waters of Christianity.”
It’s obvious our opponent fails to accept the early Church dogma on the the Holy Trinity which manifests Itself in Three Persons by the Essence of One God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is one of the deepest mysteries of the inner life of God. Since God in His essence is one, then all of God’s characteristics - His immortality, omnipotence, omnipresence, and others belong in equal measure to all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. In other words, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are eternal and omnipotent, as is God the Father.
Aside from Apostolic teachings that bore testimony to the Holy Trinity, the plurality of the Triune God is indicated in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.
Genesis 1:26
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
Us, uhhhhhhh, usually refers to more than one person. Perhaps God was schizophrenic and liked talking to himself?
Genesis 3:22
“Behold, the man is become as one of us.”
Ditto.
Genesis 11:7
“Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language.”
Ditto again.
1 John 5:7
“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”
There you go again using highly disputed scripture texts to try and prop yourself up. The wording you quote above has been firmly established as spurious to the authentic Greek text which reads: ?For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." A verse altered by those wishing to support the Trinity belief.
Our opponent rejects the early Church dogma of a Triune God because he lacks the mental capacity, as do all humans, to understand this unfathomable mystery. The most edifying manner by which this dogma can be presented is described by the Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles Cyril in 869 AD during a discussion with Muslims when he pointed to the sun and said to them: “See, in the sky there stands a shining circle, and from it light is born and warmth is emitted. God the Father, like the solar disk, is without beginning or end. From Him, the Son of God is born, like light from the sun, and as warmth goes from the sun together with rays of light, proceeds the Holy Spirit. Each can distinguish separately the solar disk, and light, and warmth, but the sun is one in the sky. So is the Holy Trinity: three Persons in Him, but one and indivisible God.”
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/god.htm
May this be edifying for all those rejecting the early Church dogma of a Holy Trinity.
[/quote]
Stella, I’m sure you know the name Eusebius Pamphili from the Nicean Council. He put his name to that council decision. HOWEVER, did he really subscribe to its views? These espressions of his recorded by his biographer Valesius give us the answer: ?As not inquiring into truths which admit of investigation is indolence, so prying into others, where the scrutiny is inexpedient, is audacity. Into what truths ought we then to search? Those which we find recorded in the Scriptures. But what we do not find recorded there, LET US NOT SEARCH AFTER. For had knowledge of them been incumbent upon us, the Holy Spirit would doubtless have placed them there .?.?. Let not anything that is written be blotted out .?.?. Speak what is written and the strife will be abandoned.?
Might do you good to re-read that a few times.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Matthew 28:18
Go, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
(God is trinity. “Baptize in the name”, not the names. “Teach them to observe” if the Bible stood alone, shouldn’t it say-give them a copy?)
mertdawg how can you put this stuff out there without utter embarrassment? Most bible versions will repeat ‘name’ before each of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. [/quote]
Sorry, I am embarrased. I should have asked Do you believe in three Gods?
Keep in mind Stellar’s verse:
“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”
And you seem to have skipped over 7-8 other previous points. If you missed them, could you check them out please.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Open question to my religious friends: Do you think that the world is coming to an end anytime soon? Like in the next thousand years or so? Seriously.[/quote]
I hate that term. Too many religious fanatics who completely misunderstand the biblical ‘end of the world’(not earth) has made it sound so ludicrous. A definitive time-table can’t be put on it but my post earlier of the conditions listed at 2 Tim. 3 and Matt. 24 give us something to look for when that ‘end’ would be close. I can’t see things lasting too much longer with the fulfillment of biblical signs almost complete but that doesn’t mean I’m out there buying and storing rations either. When God’s servants in times past survived major conflagrations it was only by relying on his help.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
And the ‘teach them to observe’ part. If you knew your bible you’d recognize NOBODY became a Christian without being taught. No, simply reading the bible(or part thereof) would leave you in the same boat as the Ethiopian Eunuch who answered Philip’s question if he knew what he was reading(from Isaiah) with the words ‘How could I ever do so unless someone guided me?’ Acts 8:26-31[/quote]
So we can agree that the Bible is not a stand alone theology source-that the apostles were called to teach it, not just to pass it out or speak the words? That’s good because it takes one question off the table. Except of course that you will not allow me to include the teachings of the apostles as evidence-right?
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips: How do you interpret Peter’s vision in Acts 10.
Also, do you personally follow ALL of the regulations of the Torah?[/quote]
Just discovered this post by accident.
First, I don’t interpret anything. Let the bible interpret itself.
The short version - this was God informing Peter that he would now accept Gentiles into His congregation(church) and that the Law’s prohibition on certain foods was not in effect for Christians.
The Torah is irrelevant for Christians as far as a standard to keep. Much can be learned from it but Christians are not under the Law.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
And the ‘teach them to observe’ part. If you knew your bible you’d recognize NOBODY became a Christian without being taught. No, simply reading the bible(or part thereof) would leave you in the same boat as the Ethiopian Eunuch who answered Philip’s question if he knew what he was reading(from Isaiah) with the words ‘How could I ever do so unless someone guided me?’ Acts 8:26-31
So we can agree that the Bible is not a stand alone theology source-that the apostles were called to teach it, not just to pass it out or speak the words? That’s good because it takes one question off the table. Except of course that you will not allow me to include the teachings of the apostles as evidence-right?[/quote]
No we certainly do not agree. The apostles had God’s spirit and were able to understand and teach the bible. They certainly did not deviate from what it said though. Their teaching was BASED ON THE BIBLE nothing else.
The real teachings of the apostles are in the bible.
So I’ve got one no and one maybe. Okay.
I’m also curious about how some of y’all religious folks refer to a few prophecies in the bible coming true (which is debatable) as proof of the bible’s “correctness” overall.
I mean, let’s say someday two thousand years in the future or something, humans figure out how to build spaceships that are faster than light. And then we discover how to transport ourselves and other stuff through a beam of light over great distances.
Are we then going to look back two thousand years, and assume that because Gene Roddenberry wrote about this stuff in Star Trek, that we will necessarily find Vulcans and Klingons out in space somewhere?
Let’s take this one step further. If we also have hand-held phasers, tricorders, an Engineer named Scotty who hangs out with a doctor nicknamed “Bones”, and Captain Kirk is in charge of a ship named “Enterprise”… are we going to find those Klingons or not? I mean, if he was right about so much stuff happening so far in the future, then he must be right about everything else.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
The Torah is irrelevant for Christians as far as a standard to keep. Much can be learned from it but Christians are not under the Law.[/quote]
You argued that drinking Jesus’ blood would go against the Torah and we agree, the Torah is irrelevant for Christians.
By the way, could you, once again read back through my 4 questions from page 10 up to this point when you get the chance? Thanks. It looks otherwise like your evading 3/4s of the points and looking for the things you can dismiss trivially.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
So I’ve got one no and one maybe. Okay.
I’m also curious about how some of y’all religious folks refer to a few prophecies in the bible coming true (which is debatable) as proof of the bible’s “correctness” overall.
I mean, let’s say someday two thousand years in the future or something, humans figure out how to build spaceships that are faster than light. And then we discover how to transport ourselves and other stuff through a beam of light over great distances.
Are we then going to look back two thousand years, and assume that because Gene Roddenberry wrote about this stuff in Star Trek, that we will necessarily find Vulcans and Klingons out in space somewhere?
Let’s take this one step further. If we also have hand-held phasers, tricorders, an Engineer named Scotty who hangs out with a doctor nicknamed “Bones”, and Captain Kirk is in charge of a ship named “Enterprise”… are we going to find those Klingons or not? I mean, if he was right about so much stuff happening so far in the future, then he must be right about everything else.[/quote]
Logical
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
The Torah is irrelevant for Christians as far as a standard to keep. Much can be learned from it but Christians are not under the Law.
You argued that drinking Jesus’ blood would go against the Torah and we agree, the Torah is irrelevant for Christians.
Yes, against the Torah which applied to the Jews Jesus was talking to.
By the way, could you, once again read back through my 4 questions from page 10 up to this point when you get the chance? Thanks. It looks otherwise like your evading 3/4s of the points and looking for the things you can dismiss trivially.
[/quote]
I will have to look at those and some other points of yours I missed tomorrow.
mert: lol
But actually, it’s not logical at all. Even if we throw in Sulu and Chekov, too. And that fine chick with the nice rack that always wore blue and worked in the infirmary with Bones.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
See, in the sky there stands a shining circle, and from it light is born and warmth is emitted. God the Father, like the solar disk, is without beginning or end.
pookie wrote:
Unfortunately, our sun had a beginning and will also have an end. Once it finishes fusioning hydrogen into helium and helium to other heavier elements, it will burn out.[/quote]
Thanks for this groundbreaking revelation pookie! I never knew the sun would burn out… How’s that for sarcasm?
Your jocular remarks add anything but thought-provoking feedback to this thread. Have you ever considered that a circle has no beginning and no end being that it’s round? Hence the reason St. Cyril uses a circle to help us understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Anyways, the analogy isn’t meant to be perfect; it’s supposed to help us understand the concept of the Holy Trinity which as already stated, can not be fathomed or explained by the human intellect. Think before you post, lest you prove yourself a moron.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Also, the Indians (from India) had their trinity god (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva all being aspects of the same god) way before the church decided to borrow the concept (it is a cool one, after all) and make it “dogma”.[/quote]
Show me proof by an accredited theologian or historian that Christianity’s dogma on the Holy Trinity was borrowed from the Hindues. Despite any similarities you perceive as existing between Christianity and Hinduism, the bottom line is that these are two completely different faiths.
Tell me:
[i]Just because Hindues fast and the Jews fast also, would you say that the Jews are copying the Hindues?
Just because agnostics pray and the Buddhists pray also, would you say that agnostics are copying the Buddhists?
Just because Santarians sacrifice chickens, and the Luciferians sacrifice chickens also, would you say that Santarians are copying Luciferians?
Just because the Native Americans believed in many gods and spirits, would you say they’re copying off Shintoism?[/i]
Think before you post, lest you be proved a moron.
[quote]futuredave wrote:
So, anyone who is not Orthodox is going to Hell, right?
In addition to the obvious infidels, like muslims and hindus and buddhist, all baptist, methodist, lutherans, catholics, etc are going to burn in hell forever. Yes or no?[/quote]
It’s not the label which gets you into heaven, but the Faith you believe in and the Life that you live that makes the difference. In the beginning, Christians weren’t even called Christians - they were called Nazarenes.
The Bible says that nobody goes to the Father except through the Son (Jesus Christ). Similarly, whoever denies the Son (Jesus Christ) here on earth will be denied by the Son before the Father in heaven. Assuredly, whoever does not believe in the Lord & Savior Jesus Christ will not enter the kingdom of God. Bye-bye to all the non-Christians…
As for Protestants & Roman Catholics, some of them live more righteous lives than their Orthodox Christian counterparts. As Orthodox Christians, we bear witness to the true Faith. We know we need to live the Life by following the teachings & traditions which the Apostles and the early Church established which often isn’t quite that easy. Protestants fail to meet this standard; ie. when Jesus Christ commands His faithful to partake of the Eucharist so they may inherit eternal life and the Protestants fail to adhere to this teaching, what does logic imply that their final fate shall be?
Regarding the Roman Catholics, they have the traditions but their teachings are substantially corrupted with heresy; the Bible explains that heretics will not enter the kingdom of God.
Ultimately, it appears that Orthodox Christians are messengers of doom to those not part of the Body of Christ. In the Second Coming, many will wish they’d received our message; for He who judges also knows whose eyes & ears our messages are seen and heard by. The light-heartedness of those failing to seek after the Truth will prove self-condemning for many.
stellar: You are that guy who demands that the sky be called blue instead of azure.
Here’s a link that explores the striking similarities of the Hindu Trinity and the Christian Trinity. The author doesn’t say who came first, the chicken or the egg, but there you are:
http://www.godquest.org/brahmanic%20hinduism.htm
Let’s say that there is absolutely no influence from one religion to another. That’s pretty coincidental and cool that your Gods are so freakin’ similar. I also like how some of the passages of your bible are so similar to Hindu ideals.
Rock on.