Occidental and Oriental Philosophies

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Eastern philosophy tells us, it is ‘being’ and the ‘meaning of with-in’. To me it sounds on the surface profound, but in essence it’s ultimately meaningless. We are so special that ‘with-in’ necessarily means much.

BTW, I am trying to arouse people and evoke negative feelings but ultimately I want people to support and make a case for eastern philosophy, not attack my simpleton lack of actualization and unification with existence.
[/quote]

Eastern philosophy tells us nothing that you can’t find out for yourself. If you can’t trust your senses to tell you the truth than that includes any kind of philosophy and religion, including yours.

Why is one thing meaningless and the other meaningful if both are devoid of truth?[/quote]

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I do feel, however, like I “opened” myself up. So that I was no longer able to lie to myself or that I was able to recognize certain things in myself that would have remained hidden to me for many more years but for these experiences.

[/quote]

The value of psychedelics is this^ but I also think psychedelic drugs do not contribute to uncovering the truth about buddhist notions of self.

The use of these drugs can infact hinder realisation and epiphany with respect to ‘self’.

Nevertheless, as a therapeutic tool [whilst being great fun too] shroom and LSD are wonderful [in the right set/setting ofcourse].

Nice to have something in common (:[/quote]

Actually that’s just the distinction I want to get at in my next question, which I might as well ask here, as you seem to be in my head.

I am now getting the impression that some of my earlier confusion came from the fact that we are actually discussing two different, maybe very very different philosophies here.

One I agree with. The other I probably still don’t understand but I don’t feel comfortable with it. You seem to draw a distinction between the two different concepts in this very post.

It’s damned late here and I need to get off this computer so I’ll attempt to adopt a kamui-esque style:

I feel like we need to draw a distinction between two ideas: The first asserts true, lasting happiness will never be achieved via the material, and that an epiphany or sometimes a process of “stripping away” of hindering elements can reveal to us unfettered reality and the means to real happiness.

The other I am more hesitant to describe, but intuitively I feel like this one leads, ultimately, to a freedom from? destruction of? values and the idea of individuality or independence of any sort. As I said, I am much less sure of this one so I am probably misrepresenting it again. Please feel free to correct me.

BG’s touching recollection of his grandmother, my intentions and experiences with psychedelics, and maybe even kamui’s description of eastern philosophy above all seem to me to fall more under the umbrella of the former.

One thing I’ve learned so far from all of this, I am not suited to writing in the kamui-esque style, lol :wink:

[quote]
One thing I’ve learned so far from all of this, I am not suited to writing in the kamui-esque style, lol ;)[/quote]

You write too well for that :stuck_out_tongue:
The so-called “kamui-esque style” is the direct consequence of the imperfections of my english skills.
I do my best to synthetize and i try to avoid complex sentences and expressions because i don’t master them.
I wrote short paragraphs because longer ones can quickly become a linguistic pain in the ass for me.

if i understood your criticism correctly, i think it may be a special case of the “moving the goalpost” fallacy.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I do feel, however, like I “opened” myself up. So that I was no longer able to lie to myself or that I was able to recognize certain things in myself that would have remained hidden to me for many more years but for these experiences.

[/quote]

The value of psychedelics is this^ but I also think psychedelic drugs do not contribute to uncovering the truth about buddhist notions of self.

The use of these drugs can infact hinder realisation and epiphany with respect to ‘self’.

Nevertheless, as a therapeutic tool [whilst being great fun too] shroom and LSD are wonderful [in the right set/setting ofcourse].

Nice to have something in common (:[/quote]

Actually that’s just the distinction I want to get at in my next question, which I might as well ask here, as you seem to be in my head.

I am now getting the impression that some of my earlier confusion came from the fact that we are actually discussing two different, maybe very very different philosophies here.

One I agree with. The other I probably still don’t understand but I don’t feel comfortable with it. You seem to draw a distinction between the two different concepts in this very post.

It’s damned late here and I need to get off this computer so I’ll attempt to adopt a kamui-esque style:

I feel like we need to draw a distinction between two ideas: The first asserts true, lasting happiness will never be achieved via the material, and that an epiphany or sometimes a process of “stripping away” of hindering elements can reveal to us unfettered reality and the means to real happiness.

The other I am more hesitant to describe, but intuitively I feel like this one leads, ultimately, to a freedom from? destruction of? values and the idea of individuality or independence of any sort. As I said, I am much less sure of this one so I am probably misrepresenting it again. Please feel free to correct me.

BG’s touching recollection of his grandmother, my intentions and experiences with psychedelics, and maybe even kamui’s description of eastern philosophy above all seem to me to fall more under the umbrella of the former.

One thing I’ve learned so far from all of this, I am not suited to writing in the kamui-esque style, lol :wink:

[/quote]

Description #1 is fine by me.

Description #2 is the insight/knowledge/realisation/observation that the self, the whole of the personality/ego/character traits/memories/desires and fears are a product of the brain, and does not exist independently of the body.

But eastern philosophy does acknowledge the mystery and has as “goal” to let-go of the conditions that prevent direct experience of the mystery. Whether that happens [enlightenment] is never certain, but even at a level of understanding of the principles behind the philosophy the benefit of those realisations do not just end at the person.

A relaxed, non-judgmental, kind person is a benefit to all.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

The community is their convent and they aid the outside world by prayer. That’s all they do, except for acting as a retreat for the curious.

My joy is fresh air and a clear mind. That makes me happy.
[/quote]

What about a big hit of DMT?
[/quote]

I’ve come to the conclusion that DMT is not my cup of tea (:
[/quote]

Acid’s better.
[/quote]

I haven’t done acid since I was 19 or 20 years old but I did quite a bit of it during my formative years (first dropped at 16, believe it or not). I loved it every single time, and, though I would not recommend it to most people, I think it is one of the few drugs that, when used appropriately, truly can have a net positive effect upon one’s life.

Even at 16, I was interested in the self-discovery and mystical aspect of the drug (I had just watched Oliver Stone’s excellent “The Doors” and fallen into complete infatuation with Jim Morrison), of breaking down the wall of the subconscious and consciously accessing it, analyzing and acting upon it. I remember writing in the desperate need to record the wisdom I was receiving (only to read what I’d written the next day and say wtf? :wink:

I would love to do it again if I had any clue where to secure it. It’s not exactly a street corner drug and I’m not even sure if I could get ahold of any if I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew where to get some stuff, here in Japan.

Sorry, not trying to take this thread somewhere else, but when you talk about the self at the level we are discussing, I think acid is actually probably pretty close to the topic at hand.
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s been a loooooooong time for me too, but I used to drop a lot, and loved it. But now I think I’d prefer shrooms but I really wouldn’t know where to get either. High School I guess, but that wouldn’t be creepy or anything :slight_smile: I am guessing college would be a good source, maybe it’s time I revist the whole grad school thing…[/quote]

Grow them yourself. Very easy and cheap. There are a few sites that will mail you 1-2 spore prints. You just have to search.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Yeah, it’s been a loooooooong time for me too, but I used to drop a lot, and loved it. But now I think I’d prefer shrooms but I really wouldn’t know where to get either. High School I guess, but that wouldn’t be creepy or anything :slight_smile: I am guessing college would be a good source, maybe it’s time I revist the whole grad school thing…[/quote][/quote]

Attention: I DO NOT recommend ANY of these drugs, by the way, to ANYONE, ANYWHERE! Although it probably sounds about as believable as using SWIM as a pronoun, the novella below is not by any means intended as a romanticization of the drug culture. I don’t do ANY drugs anymore and haven’t for about 10 years. I hardly even drink alcohol anymore and I do not drink to drunkenness ever. This is intended as an account of a short portion of a life that has been devoted to self-discovery and self-realization. That’s right, I said SELF. :wink:

Hahah! That’s nearly exactly the thought I had about needing to hang around high school kids. In high school and the first couple of years after I could get aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanything. Usually within of my requesting it.

I used both psilocybin and LSD pretty extensively over the period of a few years (relatively speaking, of course…for the curious, I have greater than 10 and less than 100 experiences with each. Certain other drugs I can only say that I have greater than 10 :wink:

I am aware of the differences between the two and, in my experience they are FAR different drugs that essentially achieve nearly the same result. My individual experience of acid was always completely different from that of mushrooms. I am not sure how reliable my memory is now, but with psilocybin, the waves of chest clenching euphoria were always far more intense almost to the degree that they would cause me some mild anxiety as that tension would appear to build and build impossibly much like when you are dizzy the room appears to spin and spin but never manages to make it all the way around. Those waves of euphoria came with acid, but they seemed always to remain at a level where I just felt Perfect, like I had actually caught ahold of that dragon you always hear about by the tail and instead of him slipping away again he came to me and gently coiled about me and melded to me.

LSD visuals were always FAR more intense than mushrooms. The tracers, the writhing pulsating colors of people’s mutable faces, like creatures of light crawling beneath their skin, the film reel in photographic negative of fireworks exploding silently in the darkness. We used to set the channel to pure snow and watch in rapt awe the shapes emerge from the plasmatic sparks. Sometimes there were animal scenes. A hundred birds falling from a hundred trees. A herd of infinite buffalo driven over a cliff like a waterfall. And pinwheels, so many pinwheels.

With mushrooms, I cannot remember anything so, heh, memorable. But the experience was no less powerful. I remember the feeling more as a melding of the physical and the emotional. Like I could feel all of this pent up power roiling inside of me that I could have directed and released like a wizard through my hands.

Okay, I know I got a little carried away just now and this probably seems more appropriate to an erowid trip report than to this thread; but I actually am going somewhere with this.

Aside from, admittedly, my just wanting to have a great time and feel awesome, my best friend, with whom I shared ALL my experiences during that period of my life, and I always used psychedelics as entheogens. As I mentioned, though we were still in high school, the movie The Doors was massively instrumental in moving us, for better or worse, to everything we could to rip down the walls of our consciousness. To strip away our protections, our excuses, our false reasoning, the lies we told ourselves. We wanted to peel away the layers of motivations and drives and fears and desires until all that was left was the pure being.

Lofty. I know.

I could go on and on (obviously!) but I’ll end with this: The psychedelically assisted forays into the subconscious came to an end when, out of no where, my best friend had a really weird, really bad trip using mushrooms. I was with him the whole time and couldn’t understand what was happening (and never would). After that he never wanted to use those kinds of drugs again and I just stopped bothering because I wasn’t interested in pursuing that kind of experience alone.

I had not achieved, perhaps, what I had hoped to, but I am absolutely sincere in my assertion that not one bad thing came of use of those drugs during that time in my life. And, because I was looking for something, I sincerely feel that I did realize certain aspects of my intention. I didn’t become some kind of enlightened spiritual master, of course. I do not think it is possible to do so from drugs and even if it were I was much too immature and ignorant at the time to attain any such thing.

I do feel, however, like I “opened” myself up. So that I was no longer able to lie to myself or that I was able to recognize certain things in myself that would have remained hidden to me for many more years but for these experiences.

[/quote]

I do not have the same admonitions as you… If you are an adult, and are willing to deal with the potential consequences go nuts.

I did like LSD quite a bit, and there’s nothing better than a Grateful Dead show tripping your nards off. Of course, being me, I had to push it. I wanted to see how far I could go so I can safely say I have had some very bizarre moments. I like mushrooms better simply because they are always fun, they don’t have the dark side that acid could, and you don’t have to dedicate 12 hours to it and you can sleep.
I did sort of ‘figure’ it out, in terms of the profundity of it. It’s actually not really profound it just changes your perspective and usually made things hysterically funny.
I can’t say I’d never do it again, but I really don’t have any desire. I did it enough to squeeze everything beneficial out of it. Further, then I had college and that’s it. Now I shoulder true and very important responsibilities. I am not sure how that reality would mix with surreality. I could do shrooms, I can suspend reality for 4-5 hours and have fun, they aren’t a psychologically demanding as LSD. I can say LSD is more than a drug, it’s a commitment. You don’t just pop a couple of hits and carry on with your day.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Eastern philosophy tells us, it is ‘being’ and the ‘meaning of with-in’. To me it sounds on the surface profound, but in essence it’s ultimately meaningless. We are so special that ‘with-in’ necessarily means much.

BTW, I am trying to arouse people and evoke negative feelings but ultimately I want people to support and make a case for eastern philosophy, not attack my simpleton lack of actualization and unification with existence.
[/quote]

Eastern philosophy tells us nothing that you can’t find out for yourself. If you can’t trust your senses to tell you the truth than that includes any kind of philosophy and religion, including yours.

Why is one thing meaningless and the other meaningful if both are devoid of truth?[/quote]

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?
[/quote]

No, I discussed religion in a response to Brother Chris a little bit ago on page 6 at 11:05. I am directing you there because I address this in detail and I don’t just want to copy and paste it and repost it.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?
[/quote]

No, I discussed religion in a response to Brother Chris a little bit ago on page 6 at 11:05. I am directing you there because I address this in detail and I don’t just want to copy and paste it and repost it.
[/quote]

It won’t surprise you that I think religion works exactly like that, but I can’t find the post you’re refering to. Link perhaps?

[quote]pat wrote:

I do not have the same admonitions as you… If you are an adult, and are willing to deal with the potential consequences go nuts.

[/quote]

It’s not really the adults I was addressing that to. Literally and figuratively.

I do think that people who are not already in the habit of being honest with themselves about who they are have any business near psychotropics. One thing I discovered through about psychotropics that was later confirmed by my study of the brain is that one of the consequences of removing the protective wall around the subconscious mind and allowing the two to “flow into” each other is that the subconscious is incapable of lying.

For someone who is already accustomed to strict, frank personal analysis, this is a fantastic tool. But to someone who is hiding and repressing certain ugly truths that they are incapable or terrified of dealing with, psychedelics can throw the gates wide open and release every single demon you’ve kept locked in that dark corner of the deep cellar of your mind. And what’s worse, once they are out, because you’ve spent all this time working on keeping them at bay, you’re not equipped in any manner to deal with them when they do come.

I’ve seen this happen a couple of times and it was very disturbing and the effects do not end with the drug.

So I was really not writing that disclaimer as a kind of CMA insurance. I really mean it. I don’t recommend psychedelics to anyone.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?
[/quote]

No, I discussed religion in a response to Brother Chris a little bit ago on page 6 at 11:05. I am directing you there because I address this in detail and I don’t just want to copy and paste it and repost it.
[/quote]

It won’t surprise you that I think religion works exactly like that, but I can’t find the post you’re refering to. Link perhaps?
[/quote]

Well it’s on this page but the time stamp was 11:09, not 11:05. My bad…If you still can’t find it I will repost it for you. I think it answers your question well.

[EDIT]: I forgot got the whole “Europe” thing…It may be 5:09 PM on your system. I am east coast U.S. -5 GMT

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I do not have the same admonitions as you… If you are an adult, and are willing to deal with the potential consequences go nuts.

[/quote]

It’s not really the adults I was addressing that to. Literally and figuratively.

I do think that people who are not already in the habit of being honest with themselves about who they are have any business near psychotropics. One thing I discovered through about psychotropics that was later confirmed by my study of the brain is that one of the consequences of removing the protective wall around the subconscious mind and allowing the two to “flow into” each other is that the subconscious is incapable of lying.

For someone who is already accustomed to strict, frank personal analysis, this is a fantastic tool. But to someone who is hiding and repressing certain ugly truths that they are incapable or terrified of dealing with, psychedelics can throw the gates wide open and release every single demon you’ve kept locked in that dark corner of the deep cellar of your mind. And what’s worse, once they are out, because you’ve spent all this time working on keeping them at bay, you’re not equipped in any manner to deal with them when they do come.

I’ve seen this happen a couple of times and it was very disturbing and the effects do not end with the drug.

So I was really not writing that disclaimer as a kind of CMA insurance. I really mean it. I don’t recommend psychedelics to anyone. [/quote]

Well, one thing is for damn sure. You can’t be dishonest with LSD… It will kick the that door off of it’s hinges in a quick minute.

[quote]EvanX wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

The community is their convent and they aid the outside world by prayer. That’s all they do, except for acting as a retreat for the curious.

My joy is fresh air and a clear mind. That makes me happy.
[/quote]

What about a big hit of DMT?
[/quote]

I’ve come to the conclusion that DMT is not my cup of tea (:
[/quote]

Acid’s better.
[/quote]

I haven’t done acid since I was 19 or 20 years old but I did quite a bit of it during my formative years (first dropped at 16, believe it or not). I loved it every single time, and, though I would not recommend it to most people, I think it is one of the few drugs that, when used appropriately, truly can have a net positive effect upon one’s life.

Even at 16, I was interested in the self-discovery and mystical aspect of the drug (I had just watched Oliver Stone’s excellent “The Doors” and fallen into complete infatuation with Jim Morrison), of breaking down the wall of the subconscious and consciously accessing it, analyzing and acting upon it. I remember writing in the desperate need to record the wisdom I was receiving (only to read what I’d written the next day and say wtf? :wink:

I would love to do it again if I had any clue where to secure it. It’s not exactly a street corner drug and I’m not even sure if I could get ahold of any if I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew where to get some stuff, here in Japan.

Sorry, not trying to take this thread somewhere else, but when you talk about the self at the level we are discussing, I think acid is actually probably pretty close to the topic at hand.
[/quote]

Yeah, it’s been a loooooooong time for me too, but I used to drop a lot, and loved it. But now I think I’d prefer shrooms but I really wouldn’t know where to get either. High School I guess, but that wouldn’t be creepy or anything :slight_smile: I am guessing college would be a good source, maybe it’s time I revist the whole grad school thing…[/quote]

Grow them yourself. Very easy and cheap. There are a few sites that will mail you 1-2 spore prints. You just have to search.[/quote]

“Hey Daddy, what’s that box of dirt and cowshit in the basement for? Can I play in it!”

[quote]pat wrote:

I did sort of ‘figure’ it out, in terms of the profundity of it. It’s actually not really profound it just changes your perspective and usually made things hysterically funny.
I can’t say I’d never do it again, but I really don’t have any desire. I did it enough to squeeze everything beneficial out of it.[/quote]

I know just what you mean by this. All of our social constructs, our posturing, our strutting and peacocking and primping and pretending to our roles are exposed for what they really are. All of a sudden we see all of these things intensified and enhanced and enlarged and made into caricatures of what we once knew. A world dreamed up by Jonathon Swift. Later all returns to normal. We can feel again the necessity and pull of conventions. But now, suddenly, we are free to adopt them without our prior innocence or ignorance. We can take some, leave others, no longer enslaved, we can make slaves of our prior masters. Not a bad deal.

I have a feeling my description of it sounds decidely western.

I wouldn’t have it any other way.

[quote]pat wrote:

Well, one thing is for damn sure. You can’t be dishonest with LSD… It will kick the that door off of it’s hinges in a quick minute.[/quote]

I could not count the number of times I have said exactly this about LSD when talking about it. It is THE main aspect of the drug I remember. Once you are trippin, you CAN NOT lie.

Matter of fact, that’s why people look so silly. Because it seems so completely absurd.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?
[/quote]

No, I discussed religion in a response to Brother Chris a little bit ago on page 6 at 11:05. I am directing you there because I address this in detail and I don’t just want to copy and paste it and repost it.
[/quote]

It won’t surprise you that I think religion works exactly like that, but I can’t find the post you’re refering to. Link perhaps?
[/quote]

Well it’s on this page but the time stamp was 11:09, not 11:05. My bad…If you still can’t find it I will repost it for you. I think it answers your question well.

[EDIT]: I forgot got the whole “Europe” thing…It may be 5:09 PM on your system. I am east coast U.S. -5 GMT[/quote]

So we’re on equal footing? I don’t think so pat. I’m not making positive statements regarding the existence of a supernatural being, but you do.

And eastern philosophy, in essence, observes mindfulness, which is our only frame of reference in dealing with reality.

I think that’s big difference.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

For some I don’t doubt that’s the case, but as a rule this statement is bullshit.[/quote]

Forgetting for a moment that the sentence at face value is nonsensical. [/quote]

It’s the same schtick as saying, “not having a belief is still a belief in something”.
[/quote]

Lol. I think the saying goes that if you believe there is nothing, in reference to God, then there is still a belief there…you’re believe in that there is nothing is still a belief in something in this matter a philosophy…at least when you think that something is only truth if it can be observed by the physical senses.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Well it’s on this page but the time stamp was 11:09, not 11:05. My bad…If you still can’t find it I will repost it for you. I think it answers your question well.

[EDIT]: I forgot got the whole “Europe” thing…It may be 5:09 PM on your system. I am east coast U.S. -5 GMT[/quote]

So we’re on equal footing? I don’t think so pat. I’m not making positive statements regarding the existence of a supernatural being, but you do.

And eastern philosophy, in essence, observes mindfulness, which is our only frame of reference in dealing with reality.

I think that’s big difference.
[/quote]

It’s not a question of ‘footing’. The point is that every discipline, every matter of study is based on the answer of one or more philosophical questions. For instance, science, which you trust implicitly relies on material objects being real things, that you can predict future behavior on past behavior, that you can control enough variables to show correlations between causes and effects and you can reliably trust this information to the point you can use it to cause desired effects. Everyone of those is a philosophical construct at it’s heart. Religion, at it’s core is doing the same thing, it answers a few philosophical questions and builds a study, a branch of discipline from there.
Your ego is telling you that you believe in only concrete things and somehow because you don’t then a belief in God is a lesser position, but in reality, your just hoping you’re right, just like everybody else. Being satisfied sensoraly or scientifically is far from the end all be all of every position.

I don’t think eastern philosophy observes mindfulness. It’s an epistemology like Kamui says. But it deals heavily in metaphysics, which is why I am curious as to why you haven’t dismissed it out right, since you borderline deny the existence of metaphysics all together.

[quote]pat wrote: Your ego is telling you that you believe in only concrete things and somehow because you don’t then a belief in God is a lesser position, but in reality, your just hoping you’re right, just like everybody else. Being satisfied sensoraly or scientifically is far from the end all be all of every position.

I don’t think eastern philosophy observes mindfulness. It’s an epistemology like Kamui says. But it deals heavily in metaphysics, which is why I am curious as to why you haven’t dismissed it out right, since you borderline deny the existence of metaphysics all together.[/quote]

Reality has some objective truths; gravity pulls, fire burns and tomorrow on the dentist chair I’ll have 20 minutes of discomfort.

I’ve never denied that life itself is a mystery, but I don’t consider myself a buddhist for the reason you gave: some tenets like reincarnation are aspects of buddhism I have no affinity with. Actually, the entire concepts of enlightenment is something I find debatable.

So I take the parts that mean something to me; from buddhism, from advaita vedanta, from non-dualism, from taoism, even the Baghavad Gita made an appearance years ago.

But the jist of eastern philosophy, that struck a chord with me, obviously.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Eastern philosophy tells us, it is ‘being’ and the ‘meaning of with-in’. To me it sounds on the surface profound, but in essence it’s ultimately meaningless. We are so special that ‘with-in’ necessarily means much.

BTW, I am trying to arouse people and evoke negative feelings but ultimately I want people to support and make a case for eastern philosophy, not attack my simpleton lack of actualization and unification with existence.
[/quote]

Eastern philosophy tells us nothing that you can’t find out for yourself. If you can’t trust your senses to tell you the truth than that includes any kind of philosophy and religion, including yours.

Why is one thing meaningless and the other meaningful if both are devoid of truth?[/quote]

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

This in particular is rich from you. And I’m not taking a pot shot. I wish you could sit back, and read the entirety of your postings on the subject of philosophy, religion and science, and see the apparent conflicts in your reasoning and beliefs (or, what you CHOOSE to believe and why).

“My criticism of Christianity is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some followers have leveled the the accusation that if you don’t accept a given truth, you don’t have faith and you’re going to hell.”

See how that works?

I’d say dogma fallacy is apropos :slight_smile:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Eastern philosophy tells us, it is ‘being’ and the ‘meaning of with-in’. To me it sounds on the surface profound, but in essence it’s ultimately meaningless. We are so special that ‘with-in’ necessarily means much.

BTW, I am trying to arouse people and evoke negative feelings but ultimately I want people to support and make a case for eastern philosophy, not attack my simpleton lack of actualization and unification with existence.
[/quote]

Eastern philosophy tells us nothing that you can’t find out for yourself. If you can’t trust your senses to tell you the truth than that includes any kind of philosophy and religion, including yours.

Why is one thing meaningless and the other meaningful if both are devoid of truth?[/quote]

That’s not my criticism of Eastern philosophy. My criticism is it states “truths”, doesn’t back them up, and some practitioners have leveled the accusation that if you don’t accept a give truth, it’s because you haven’t thought about it enough. I don’t believe this fallacy has a name, if it does Kamui please let me know, because it’s not in my database of fallacies. I will call it the dogma fallacy. It’s true and your an idiot if your don’t think so.

I don’t believe either are meaningless and both do recognize truth, I say western philosophy is more advanced and better developed.[/quote]

Isn’t that how religion works aswell?

[/quote]

oops, you beat me to it :slight_smile: