Obesity and Food Politics

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
So, the Paleo study was lower in calories? Isn’t this something that would satisfy most people/ People cutting their calories without focusing on that solely, it takes care of itself through the body’s ability to self regulate intake better?[/quote]

Calories were increased by 300 or so in FISCHER’s study.

Carbs were kept at just about the same level and yet… people still saw excellent changes in their health markers.

So, what does that suggest? That maybe the problem isn’t carbs, per se?

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Look, counting calories is absurd when you think about it, at no point in history did any animal EVER have to do such a thing, until recently.[/quote]

That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work. Numerous bodybuilders have been successful prepping for contests by, in part, tracking their calories; people routinely see success with programs such as Weight Watcher’s, etc.

But then, we are living in a world that is completely unlike anything any animal has even seen.[/quote]

Yeah, the BBer thing crossed my mind, but this is in a population that tends to do it constantly, thus forcing to ignore their body’s natural signlas, when the common person does this there is typically always a rebound effect where body signals go crazy causing more weight gain than lost

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Take a look at fat construction workers, among the most active people there are, yet how/why are they fat?[/quote]

As someone who has loaded packages at UPS, done his share of landscaping and has participated in other physically-intensive jobs growing up, I find this perceived epidemic of obese manual laborers to be pretty silly.

They might not be “ripped”, but I can’t remember thinking what a fat group of people they are.

YMMV, my experiences just don’t agree.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Yeah, the BBer thing crossed my mind, but this is in a population that tends to do it constantly, thus forcing to ignore their body’s natural signlas, when the common person does this there is typically always a rebound effect where body signals go crazy causing more weight gain than lost[/quote]

Or, it might have something to do with the misunderstanding of the word “diet” to be a short period of restricted nutrient intake for the sole purpose of weight loss.

People hit their goal weight, decide to stop “dieting”, slowly adopt the habits that got them fat in the first place, and voila.

“I can afford to eat this slice of cake because I’m not fat, anymore.”

That is an issue I have with various fad diets out there – they might work in the short term, but they do not teach proper eating habits for long-term success.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I’m mostly with ya, but there are populations that ate a higher % of their cals from carbs, with less fat and meat, yet didn’t have problems.[/quote]

Tolerance to nutrients is not universal.[/quote]

in that case, a high fat diet may not be good for everyone, again just playing devil’s advocate here[/quote]

Yes, exactly why scientific studies for monolithic diets do not matter. There is no universally acceptable diet for everyone. We ALL have different nutritional needs and tolerate foods differently. Should I need science to prove it to me?

That said, the internal workings of the human body still needs to function along with the laws of physics - so it becomes a matter of finding out what mechanisms cause these intolerances.

The answer needs to be more sophisticated than “genetics” or “calorie in versus calorie out”.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
I think so: the results (Figure 1) may be attributable not to the proportions of fat or protein vs carbohydrate, but to the differences is high glycemic load vs low glycemic load. It is possible that a diet hight in carefully chosen carbohydrates with low glycemic index may be as effective.[/quote]

I agree with the Doc on this one – macro sources are important for health.

This would also tie into FISCHER’s study, where the shift towards unprocessed, low GI foods (rather than total carb intake) was one of the primary differences between the diets.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
So, the Paleo study was lower in calories? Isn’t this something that would satisfy most people/ People cutting their calories without focusing on that solely, it takes care of itself through the body’s ability to self regulate intake better?

Look, counting calories is absurd when you think about it, at no point in history did any animal EVER have to do such a thing, until recently.[/quote]

That may be because it was never needed. Early humans, and the majority of people on the planet until recently led very active lives and most jobs required a lot of physical activity so it did not really matter how much one took because most people’s energy needs were so great and weight loss was not really a big deal since most people who were not upper class did not get fat.

These days, many foods are so calorically dense that it is incredibly easy to eat above one’s maintenance level without even realizing it. Taking that and coupling it with the generally sedentary lifestyle of most Americans that creates a need for weight loss that is much greater in the past as evidenced by roughly 66% of the population being obese/overweight. Really if you are dieting you are almost always going to have some way of measuring caloric intake, whether it is through counting your own calories to come up with a meal plan or following someone else’s diet. It is very rare to see someone go through a weight loss phase without paying any attention to caloric intake at least on a basic level.

I also have some comments on the thermodynamics paper but I will have to get to that later.[/quote]

What is the mechanism that makes people fat?

And don’t say thermodynamics because that is always true.[/quote]

On it’s most basic physical level, energy. When one is adding more energy to their system then they are expending, then that will result in an increase in stored energy: fat, added muscle and whatnot. We can make this as complicated as we want, but for the vast majority of the population, even weight lifters, we do not need to. You can take a look at any diet that exists, paleo, atkins, Jenny Craig, whatever, and they all boil down to this.

If your maintenance calorie needs are 2500 calories and you eat 3500 calories a day for an extended period you are going to gain weight, and I do not care how much grass that cow ate or how few carbs you take in. Now, how much of that weight is gained as lean mass or fat will depend mostly on how heavy you are hitting the weights and a few other smaller factors, but I assume that since you are on a bodybuilding site you know that already. If you are mostly sedentary, most of that weight gain will be fat.

Sure, doing things like increasing protein intake, cutting out processed food and stuff will probably have an effect, but that effect will be small when compared to the effect of eating a diet that is well below maintenance level. The articles Anonym has posted seem to support this, as does my own experiences.

For the record, I am dieting right now and I am doing a very low carb diet. Not because I think it is better then other diets, it is just easier for my lifestyle and schedule. The results I have been seeing are not drastically different from other diets I have done with similar total calories per day.

Some people have an easier time following other kinds of diets, and that is great. You look up any kind of diet, you find a bunch of people that have had success with it and you will find a bunch of people that have not. Usually, the second most important factor in a diet’s success after total calories is the ability to adhere to it. Those really tend to be the most difficult things for most people and just finding a diet that allows one to accomplish those two things will lead to great results. It is only after getting those two things down that anyone should even begin to think about other things.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

On it’s most basic physical level, energy. When one is adding more energy to their system then they are expending, then that will result in an increase in stored energy: fat, added muscle and whatnot. We can make this as complicated as we want, but for the vast majority of the population, even weight lifters, we do not need to. You can take a look at any diet that exists, paleo, atkins, Jenny Craig, whatever, and they all boil down to this.

If your maintenance calorie needs are 2500 calories and you eat 3500 calories a day for an extended period you are going to gain weight, and I do not care how much grass that cow ate or how few carbs you take in. Now, how much of that weight is gained as lean mass or fat will depend mostly on how heavy you are hitting the weights and a few other smaller factors, but I assume that since you are on a bodybuilding site you know that already. If you are mostly sedentary, most of that weight gain will be fat.

Sure, doing things like increasing protein intake, cutting out processed food and stuff will probably have an effect, but that effect will be small when compared to the effect of eating a diet that is well below maintenance level. The articles Anonym has posted seem to support this, as does my own experiences.

For the record, I am dieting right now and I am doing a very low carb diet. Not because I think it is better then other diets, it is just easier for my lifestyle and schedule. The results I have been seeing are not drastically different from other diets I have done with similar total calories per day.

Some people have an easier time following other kinds of diets, and that is great. You look up any kind of diet, you find a bunch of people that have had success with it and you will find a bunch of people that have not. Usually, the second most important factor in a diet’s success after total calories is the ability to adhere to it. Those really tend to be the most difficult things for most people and just finding a diet that allows one to accomplish those two things will lead to great results. It is only after getting those two things down that anyone should even begin to think about other things.[/quote]

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system.

So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored?

How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that?

How many calories are in a liter of gasoline?

I’m squatting heavy today! Energy in, energy out!

Thought some may like this article, sorry for the copy/paste probably can’t link to it:

When describing someone that has successfully made the transition to the Primal way of eating I often refer to them as ?fat-adapted? or as ?fat-burning beasts?. But what exactly does it mean to be ?fat-adapted?? How can you tell if you?re fat-adapted or still a ?sugar-burner?? I get these and related questions fairly often, so I thought I?d take the time today to attempt to provide some definitions and bring some clarification to all of this. I?ll try to keep today?s post short and sweet, and not too complicated. Hopefully, med students and well-meaning but inquisitive lay family members alike will be able to take something from it.

As I?ve mentioned before, fat-adaptation is the normal, preferred metabolic state of the human animal. It?s nothing special; it?s just how we?re meant to be. That?s actually why we have all this fat on our bodies ? turns out it?s a pretty reliable source of energy! To understand what it means to be normal, it?s useful examine what it means to be abnormal. And by that I mean, to understand what being a sugar-dependent person feels like.

A sugar-burner can?t effectively access stored fat for energy. What that means is an inability for skeletal muscle to oxidize fat. Ha, not so bad, right? I mean, you could always just burn glucose for energy. Yeah, as long as you?re walking around with an IV-glucose drip hooked up to your veins. What happens when a sugar-burner goes two, three, four hours without food, or ? dare I say it ? skips a whole entire meal (without that mythical IV sugar drip)? They get ravenously hungry. Heck, a sugar-burner?s adipose tissue even releases a bunch of fatty acids 4-6 hours after eating and during fasting, because as far as it?s concerned, your muscles should be able to oxidize them (PDF). After all, we evolved to rely on beta oxidation of fat for the bulk of our energy needs. But they can?t, so they don?t, and once the blood sugar is all used up (which happens really quickly), hunger sets in, and the hand reaches for yet another bag of chips.

A sugar-burner can?t even effectively access dietary fat for energy. As a result, more dietary fat is stored than burned. Unfortunately for them, they?re likely to end up gaining lots of body fat. As we know, a low ratio of fat to carbohydrate oxidation is a strong predictor of future weight gain.

A sugar-burner depends on a perpetually-fleeting source of energy. Glucose is nice to burn when you need it, but you can?t really store very much of it on your person (unless you count snacks in pockets, or chipmunkesque cheek-stuffing). Even a 160 pound person who?s visibly lean at 12% body fat still has 19.2 pounds of animal fat on hand for oxidation, while our ability to store glucose as muscle and liver glycogen are limited to about 500 grams (depending on the size of the liver and amount of muscle you?re sporting). You require an exogenous source, and, if you?re unable to effectively beta oxidize fat (as sugar-burners often are), you?d better have some candy on hand.

A sugar-burner will burn through glycogen fairly quickly during exercise. Depending on the nature of the physical activity, glycogen burning could be perfectly desirable and expected, but it?s precious, valuable stuff. If you?re able to power your efforts with fat for as long as possible, that gives you more glycogen ? more rocket fuel for later, intenser efforts (like climbing a hill or grabbing that fourth quarter offensive rebound or running from a predator). Sugar-burners waste their glycogen on efforts that fat should be able to power.

Being fat-adapted, then, looks and feels a little bit like the opposite of all that:

A fat-burning beast can effectively burn stored fat for energy throughout the day. If you can handle missing meals and are able to go hours without getting ravenous and cranky (or craving carbs), you?re likely fat-adapted.

A fat-burning beast is able to effectively oxidize dietary fat for energy. If you?re adapted, your post-prandial fat oxidation will be increased, and less dietary fat will be stored in adipose tissue.

A fat-burning beast has plenty of accessible energy on hand, even if he or she is lean. If you?re adapted, the genes associated with lipid metabolism will be upregulated in your skeletal muscles. You will essentially reprogram your body.

A fat-burning beast can rely more on fat for energy during exercise, sparing glycogen for when he or she really needs it. As I?ve discussed before, being able to mobilize and oxidize stored fat during exercise can reduce an athlete?s reliance on glycogen. This is the classic ?train low, race high? phenomenon, and it can improve performance, save the glycogen for the truly intense segments of a session, and burn more body fat. If you can handle exercising without having to carb-load, you?re probably fat-adapted. If you can workout effectively in a fasted state, you?re definitely fat-adapted.

Furthermore, a fat-burning beast will be able to burn glucose when necessary and/or available, whereas the opposite cannot be said for a sugar-burner. Ultimately, fat-adaption means metabolic flexibility. It means that a fat-burning beast will be able to handle some carbs along with some fat. A fat-burning beast will be able to empty glycogen stores through intense exercise, refill those stores, burn whatever dietary fat isn?t stored, and then easily access and oxidize the fat that is stored when it?s needed. It?s not that the fat-burning beast can?t burn glucose ? because glucose is toxic in the blood, we?ll always preferentially burn it, store it, or otherwise ?handle? it ? it?s that he doesn?t depend on it. I?d even suggest that true fat-adaptation will allow someone to eat a higher carb meal or day without derailing the train. Once the fat-burning machinery has been established and programmed, you should be able to effortlessly switch between fuel sources as needed.

There?s really no ?fat-adaptation home test kit.? I suppose you could test your respiratory quotient, which is the ratio of carbon dioxide you produce to oxygen you consume. An RQ of 1+ indicates full glucose-burning; an RQ of 0.7 indicates full fat-burning. Somewhere around 0.8 would probably mean you?re fairly well fat-adapted, while something closer to 1 probably means you?re closer to a sugar-burner. The obese have higher RQs. Diabetics have higher RQs. Nighttime eaters have higher RQs (and lower lipid oxidation). What do these groups all have in common? Lower satiety, insistent hunger, impaired beta-oxidation of fat, increased carb cravings and intake ? all hallmarks of the sugar-burner.

It?d be great if you could monitor the efficiency of your mitochondria, including the waste products produced by their ATP manufacturing, perhaps with a really, really powerful microscope, but you?d have to know what you were looking for. And besides, although I like to think our ?cellular power plants? resemble the power plant from the Simpsons, I?m pretty sure I?d be disappointed by reality.

No, there?s no test to take, no simple thing to measure, no one number to track, no lab to order from your doctor. To find out if you?re fat-adapted, the most effective way is to ask yourself a few basic questions:

Can you go three hours without eating? Is skipping a meal an exercise in futility and misery?
Do you enjoy steady, even energy throughout the day? Are midday naps pleasurable indulgences, rather than necessary staples?
Can you exercise without carb-loading?
Have the headaches and brain fuzziness passed?

Yes? Then you?re probably fat-adapted. Welcome to normal human metabolism!

A quick note about ketosis:

Fat-adaption does not necessarily mean ketosis. Ketosis is ketosis. Fat-adaption describes the ability to burn both fat directly via beta-oxidation and glucose via glycolysis, while ketosis describes the use of fat-derived ketone bodies by tissues (like parts of the brain) that normally use glucose. A ketogenic diet ?tells? your body that no or very little glucose is available in the environment. The result? ?Impaired? glucose tolerance and ?physiological? insulin resistance, which sound like negatives but are actually necessary to spare what little glucose exists for use in the brain. On the other hand, a well-constructed, lower-carb (but not full-blown ketogenic) Primal way of eating that leads to weight loss generally improves insulin sensitivity.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

On it’s most basic physical level, energy. When one is adding more energy to their system then they are expending, then that will result in an increase in stored energy: fat, added muscle and whatnot. We can make this as complicated as we want, but for the vast majority of the population, even weight lifters, we do not need to. You can take a look at any diet that exists, paleo, atkins, Jenny Craig, whatever, and they all boil down to this.

If your maintenance calorie needs are 2500 calories and you eat 3500 calories a day for an extended period you are going to gain weight, and I do not care how much grass that cow ate or how few carbs you take in. Now, how much of that weight is gained as lean mass or fat will depend mostly on how heavy you are hitting the weights and a few other smaller factors, but I assume that since you are on a bodybuilding site you know that already. If you are mostly sedentary, most of that weight gain will be fat.

Sure, doing things like increasing protein intake, cutting out processed food and stuff will probably have an effect, but that effect will be small when compared to the effect of eating a diet that is well below maintenance level. The articles Anonym has posted seem to support this, as does my own experiences.

For the record, I am dieting right now and I am doing a very low carb diet. Not because I think it is better then other diets, it is just easier for my lifestyle and schedule. The results I have been seeing are not drastically different from other diets I have done with similar total calories per day.

Some people have an easier time following other kinds of diets, and that is great. You look up any kind of diet, you find a bunch of people that have had success with it and you will find a bunch of people that have not. Usually, the second most important factor in a diet’s success after total calories is the ability to adhere to it. Those really tend to be the most difficult things for most people and just finding a diet that allows one to accomplish those two things will lead to great results. It is only after getting those two things down that anyone should even begin to think about other things.[/quote]

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system.

So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored?

How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that?

How many calories are in a liter of gasoline?

I’m squatting heavy today! Energy in, energy out!

[/quote]

LM has stolen my way of posting.

I expect royalties but will not get them.

Principled libertarian or cheap bastard?

I report, you decide!

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

On it’s most basic physical level, energy. When one is adding more energy to their system then they are expending, then that will result in an increase in stored energy: fat, added muscle and whatnot. We can make this as complicated as we want, but for the vast majority of the population, even weight lifters, we do not need to. You can take a look at any diet that exists, paleo, atkins, Jenny Craig, whatever, and they all boil down to this.

If your maintenance calorie needs are 2500 calories and you eat 3500 calories a day for an extended period you are going to gain weight, and I do not care how much grass that cow ate or how few carbs you take in. Now, how much of that weight is gained as lean mass or fat will depend mostly on how heavy you are hitting the weights and a few other smaller factors, but I assume that since you are on a bodybuilding site you know that already. If you are mostly sedentary, most of that weight gain will be fat.

Sure, doing things like increasing protein intake, cutting out processed food and stuff will probably have an effect, but that effect will be small when compared to the effect of eating a diet that is well below maintenance level. The articles Anonym has posted seem to support this, as does my own experiences.

For the record, I am dieting right now and I am doing a very low carb diet. Not because I think it is better then other diets, it is just easier for my lifestyle and schedule. The results I have been seeing are not drastically different from other diets I have done with similar total calories per day.

Some people have an easier time following other kinds of diets, and that is great. You look up any kind of diet, you find a bunch of people that have had success with it and you will find a bunch of people that have not. Usually, the second most important factor in a diet’s success after total calories is the ability to adhere to it. Those really tend to be the most difficult things for most people and just finding a diet that allows one to accomplish those two things will lead to great results. It is only after getting those two things down that anyone should even begin to think about other things.[/quote]

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system.

So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored?

How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that?

How many calories are in a liter of gasoline?

I’m squatting heavy today! Energy in, energy out!

[/quote]

LM has stolen my way of posting.

I expect royalties but will not get them.

Principled libertarian or cheap bastard?

I report, you decide!
[/quote]

Principled libertarian and cheap bastard!

Consider it an acknowledgment to your posting greatness.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system. [/quote]

Cool, I thought I was the only one on here. I know that there are a few people with BS degrees in physics, but not another actual physicist. What is your area of research?

[quote]
So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored? [/quote]

A calorie is an archaic measurement of energy, and you are a physicist so you should be familiar with the Work Energy Theorem from classical mechanics at the very least so you already know that energy can either be “used” to do work or be stored as potential energy.

[quote]
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.

[quote]
How many calories are in a liter of gasoline? [/quote]

Why would you even ask this? You said you are a physicist so you should not need an explanation on how to find a solution to a time dependent Schrodinger equation and how work in general works. In order figure out the energy of the system you need to first determine if there is indeed work being done on a macro scale. Then you need to figure out the wave function of this energy conversion from potential to kinetic energy, as well as a function to describe the potential energy of the gasoline, and the laplacian for the system. Now you will have a linear complex partial differential equation to get your answer. If you are not good at solving complex differential equations, you can express this as an eigenvalued function and solve it using linear algebra instead. It will not be the same for every system and energy conversion of 1 liter of gasoline to energy. This does not even matter to the discussion since the caloric value of food was determined to specifically describe the human body’s ability to convert macronutrients to energy.

It was HEP. Left academia to make money in banking before I knew better.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system. [/quote]

Cool, I thought I was the only one on here. I know that there are a few people with BS degrees in physics, but not another actual physicist. What is your area of research?

[quote]
So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored? [/quote]

A calorie is an archaic measurement of energy, and you are a physicist so you should be familiar with the Work Energy Theorem from classical mechanics at the very least so you already know that energy can either be “used” to do work or be stored as potential energy.

[quote]
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.

A physicist explanation for weight gain does not help. Thank you. That is all I am trying to prove.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system. [/quote]

Cool, I thought I was the only one on here. I know that there are a few people with BS degrees in physics, but not another actual physicist. What is your area of research?

[quote]
So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored? [/quote]

A calorie is an archaic measurement of energy, and you are a physicist so you should be familiar with the Work Energy Theorem from classical mechanics at the very least so you already know that energy can either be “used” to do work or be stored as potential energy.

[quote]
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.

A physicist explanation for weight gain does not help. Thank you. That is all I am trying to prove.[/quote]

You didn’t prove anything. All that has been showed is that energy conversion is specific to any general system and that saying something like “how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline” is asinine and that you need to calculate the energy conversion of a system based on that system. The energy equivalence of protein, carbs, and fats was done so through this method so everything I have said in this thread is valid. Energy is the same universally, no matter how you describe it. You will not find a form of energy that is not a force acting across a distance, so energy conversions in humans is not something special or magical. Anonym has provided many, many studies in this thread that agree with what I have said. I haven’t seen any that do not.

anonym- are you familiar with the “Milk Shake Study and Ghrelin”? fascinating, I don’t have a reference for it, but may be able to dig it up.

essentially group of people consumed 2 milk shakes at different times: Milk Shake #1 marketing flyer showed high calories, fat, sugar and “indulgence” language
Milk shake #2: marketing flyer showed low calorie, low fat, less sugar, wording was such that it makes you feel they were eating a “less bad food”

Milk shake #2 ended up causing greater ghrelin levels in the people after consumption… here’s the kicker… both shakes were identical, just the marketing/food labels were different

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
As I?ve mentioned before, fat-adaptation is the normal, preferred metabolic state of the human animal. It?s nothing special; it?s just how we?re meant to be.[/quote]

OK – then why do humans preferentially burn glucose in the presence of both carbs and fat?

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
That?s actually why we have all this fat on our bodies ? turns out it?s a pretty reliable source of energy![/quote]

We have “all this fat” on our bodies because it is a more efficient form of energy storage.

As stated, when accounting for water weight, fat is over six times as energy dense as glycogen.

This means that, for every pound of fat you have, converting it into stored glycogen would be adding an additional five pounds to your body.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
A sugar-burner can?t effectively access stored fat for energy. What that means is an inability for skeletal muscle to oxidize fat.[/quote]

According to whom?

“Consistent with an increased reliance on FFA utilization associated with starvation (13), the results from the present study demonstrate that short-term fasting in humans activates the transcription of at least a subset (PDK4, LPL, and CPT I) of genes associated with lipid metabolism in skeletal muscle.”

I know, I know, the subjects were all healthy males (and, yeah, there were only 9 of them). But, IMO, when making generalized statements about the entire human population, it should go without speaking that we are talking about non-diseased individuals.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
As a result, more dietary fat is stored than burned. Unfortunately for them, they?re likely to end up gaining lots of body fat. As we know, a low ratio of fat to carbohydrate oxidation is a strong predictor of future weight gain.[/quote]

Yes, dietary fat is preferentially stored rather than burned in the presence of glucose; however, the degree of fat gained is dependent upon total caloric intake. If you eat a low-calorie meal consisting of some carbs and some fat, your body will resort to burning the fat once it works through the glucose. If you eat a high-calorie meal consisting of a lot of carbs and some fat, and your body probably won’t get around to burning that fat before the next meal comes around.

But, again, it all comes down to caloric balance. If your body needs more calories, it will dip into its reserves, regardless of the macro makeup of your diet.

There’s really too much here to go through point-by-point, but rest assured healthy individuals do not have problems going a few hours without glucose despite what this guy says.

While it is not completely inaccurate on all of it’s points (despite its share of bro-science), it is fairly obvious that the author is subtly relying on healthy fat metabolizers and those with impaired glucose metabolism to make his point. Whether he is doing it on purpose, on accident, or because he simply doesn’t understand that healthy people can handle carbohydrates is a mystery to me.

However, as I posted earlier, there is a fair bit of research that shows our “paleo” ancestors had a carbohydrate intake just as high (if not higher, given their increased caloric intake/expenditure) as ours. So, calling yourself “paleo” while eating a high fat, low carb diet is likely not a historically accurate label.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
anonym- are you familiar with the “Milk Shake Study and Ghrelin”? fascinating, I don’t have a reference for it, but may be able to dig it up.

essentially group of people consumed 2 milk shakes at different times: Milk Shake #1 marketing flyer showed high calories, fat, sugar and “indulgence” language
Milk shake #2: marketing flyer showed low calorie, low fat, less sugar, wording was such that it makes you feel they were eating a “less bad food”

Milk shake #2 ended up causing greater ghrelin levels in the people after consumption… here’s the kicker… both shakes were identical, just the marketing/food labels were different[/quote]

That’s pretty interesting. I’ll see if I can dig it up so we can take a look at it.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system. [/quote]

Cool, I thought I was the only one on here. I know that there are a few people with BS degrees in physics, but not another actual physicist. What is your area of research?

[quote]
So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored? [/quote]

A calorie is an archaic measurement of energy, and you are a physicist so you should be familiar with the Work Energy Theorem from classical mechanics at the very least so you already know that energy can either be “used” to do work or be stored as potential energy.

[quote]
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.

A physicist explanation for weight gain does not help. Thank you. That is all I am trying to prove.[/quote]

You didn’t prove anything. All that has been showed is that energy conversion is specific to any general system and that saying something like “how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline” is asinine and that you need to calculate the energy conversion of a system based on that system. The energy equivalence of protein, carbs, and fats was done so through this method so everything I have said in this thread is valid. Energy is the same universally, no matter how you describe it. You will not find a form of energy that is not a force acting across a distance, so energy conversions in humans is not something special or magical. Anonym has provided many, many studies in this thread that agree with what I have said. I haven’t seen any that do not.[/quote]

F it.

I get it.

I know how energy works in matter.

Why does eating certain foods reduce energy expenditure?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

<----- is physicist, needs no explanation of how to add up energy in a system. [/quote]

Cool, I thought I was the only one on here. I know that there are a few people with BS degrees in physics, but not another actual physicist. What is your area of research?

[quote]
So your explanation is when I eat a calorie it is either burned or stored? [/quote]

A calorie is an archaic measurement of energy, and you are a physicist so you should be familiar with the Work Energy Theorem from classical mechanics at the very least so you already know that energy can either be “used” to do work or be stored as potential energy.

[quote]
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.

A physicist explanation for weight gain does not help. Thank you. That is all I am trying to prove.[/quote]

You didn’t prove anything. All that has been showed is that energy conversion is specific to any general system and that saying something like “how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline” is asinine and that you need to calculate the energy conversion of a system based on that system. The energy equivalence of protein, carbs, and fats was done so through this method so everything I have said in this thread is valid. Energy is the same universally, no matter how you describe it. You will not find a form of energy that is not a force acting across a distance, so energy conversions in humans is not something special or magical. Anonym has provided many, many studies in this thread that agree with what I have said. I haven’t seen any that do not.[/quote]

F it.

I get it.

I know how energy works in matter.

Why does eating certain foods reduce energy expenditure?[/quote]

The sugar fairies steal your stuff?

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How does my body know to not burn protein but rather use it to build tissue? What happens to those calories?

How does the body know when to store fat and burn glucose and when is the opposite true?

How does the body know when to make ketone bodies and how many calories do we get from that? [/quote]

It is going to depend on the needs of your body and a few other factors. I am a physicist, not a biologist. Ask Anonym for a more detailed explanation.[/quote]

If I thought it was an honest question, I’d be happy to answer.

As it stands, though, the question is fairly broad and would take more paragraphs than I am willing to type, given the nature of the question. Plus, it’s a fairly complex request (each point is a discussion in itself) and I’m sure I wouldn’t be able to do it justice since I’m not going to dig out my notebooks from last semester. Not to mention it hasn’t all been mapped out just yet.

But, using Google to investigate nutritional regulation of gene transcription, hormonal regulation of genes involved in nutrient metabolism, and things of that sort should get him started.

If any SPECIFIC questions arise from that, I’d be willing to take a stab at them.