Obama's Unforgiveable Sins

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Still think it was “chest beating” to pass a law ending such practices? Still think it was a “stupid bill?”[/quote]

Yes. Simply enact the very simple and noncontroversal law I mentioned which would solve the problem of deciding when a child becomes a legal person and is afforded legal rights.

I am curious as to how the law is in your part of the world. When DOES someone become a person with legal rights?

[quote]
I just don’t understand why people from other countries that don’t even know the beginnings of the facts of a US case feel so certain about their commentary on how we do things and so compelled to chime in a “knowing” way. It’s weird. We don’t do that for Australia. We would have more respect for you than that.[/quote]

Because this is an Interweb disccussion forum.

And it just so happens the USA has a lot of juicy topics…

Fuck all you neo cons…if it were up to me I’d be Lenin out this bitch…purge all your christian idealist fucks. I’m down with satan…fuck all you.

[quote]facko wrote:
Fuck all you neo cons…if it were up to me I’d be Lenin out this bitch…purge all your christian idealist fucks. I’m down with satan…fuck all you.[/quote]

This post would’ve been pefect had he spelled satan as “Santa.” I don’t know why, that’s just how I feel.

[quote]Spry wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Still think it was “chest beating” to pass a law ending such practices? Still think it was a “stupid bill?”

Yes. Simply enact the very simple and noncontroversal law I mentioned which would solve the problem of deciding when a child becomes a legal person and is afforded legal rights.[/quote]

Do you even know – without going and looking it up now – what the law we are talking about, that just about everyone of both parties voted for but Obama opposed – actually says?

Sounds like you don’t know, yet are commenting on that very law.

Prior to the Born Alive Infant Protection Act – which you without adequate knowledge of it call “stupid” and “chest beating” – when a child is born and a doctor declares the child “viable.”

The catch was, an abortionist who was trying to kill the born child and failed, but achieves success if the born child now dies, could keep other doctors away and at no risk of anything announce his own success and have his desire of no living child rather than have to admit failure.

Simply by putting the living child in a utility room or whatever with no medical care and waiting for him or her to die, which surely will happen sooner or later especially with a premature baby.

It was up to the abortionist! All he had to do was say No this baby can’t live whether true or not. With absolutely no legal consequence. This wasn’t theory, this was recurring fact.

Not so after the law that Obama opposed, which reads:

"The term �??born alive,�?? with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord,

or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion."

This was by the way adopted by the vaunted United Nations in 1955, it’s nothing new, only new to the US. Still call it “stupid” and “chest beating” now that you actually know what it is?

As for the determination of many from foreign countries to comment on internal US issues which they know nothing about, your response that it is “juicy” does kind of explain your posts.

To me that choice of word suggest that to you it is gossip and the facts aren’t important, only hurling insults about how stupid this American law – that you didn’t even know the content – is and so forth?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
what do you call that sorry piece of shit move you just tried to pull?
[/quote]

Since you missed the point, I’ll spell it out for you.

Just because a president has the backing of congress doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for his actions. Your protection of Bush’s actions in the Iraq war by blaming congress is a sham argument. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.

[quote]pat wrote:
When, do you think, does life begin?[/quote]

To me, this is the pivotal question in the whole abortion debate. Once you establish when life begins, you know when the fetus becomes a human being with the same protections belonging to any other human being.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to objectively establish when life begins. It is a subjective judgment call.

I do think it is ridiculous to claim a child magically becomes “human” simply by virtue of traveling a foot along a woman’s uterine canal. If it is human one second after birth, it was human one second before birth.

It can go beyond that consideration: e.g. opposing defining born children – but where the intent was to kill the child – such as that Down’s Syndrome child as being human and receiving the according protections, despite being born quite obviously alive.

[quote]forlife wrote:
rainjack wrote:
what do you call that sorry piece of shit move you just tried to pull?

Since you missed the point, I’ll spell it out for you.

Just because a president has the backing of congress doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for his actions. Your protection of Bush’s actions in the Iraq war by blaming congress is a sham argument. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.[/quote]

It not a sham at all. The point is that it was not entirely his fault we went in there. They all had the same information and made the same call. It is not “Bush’s war” and many would like to claim. There is no doubt that his administration botched the execution, but to place the blame soley on him for going in there is absolute garbage. Ask youself this. What if congress voted against going in there? Let me help you with this one. No war.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
It can go beyond that consideration: e.g. opposing defining born children – but where the intent was to kill the child – such as that Down’s Syndrome child as being human and receiving the according protections, despite being born quite obviously alive.[/quote]

I agree, the reasoning on the Down’s Syndrome case seems bizarre and inhumane to me based on the info you’ve provided in this thread.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Spry wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Still think it was “chest beating” to pass a law ending such practices? Still think it was a “stupid bill?”

Yes. Simply enact the very simple and noncontroversal law I mentioned which would solve the problem of deciding when a child becomes a legal person and is afforded legal rights.

Do you even know – without going and looking it up now – what the law we are talking about, that just about everyone of both parties voted for but Obama opposed – actually says?

Sounds like you don’t know, yet are commenting on that very law.

I am curious as to how the law is in your part of the world. When DOES someone become a person with legal rights?

Prior to the Born Alive Infant Protection Act – which you without adequate knowledge of it call “stupid” and “chest beating” – when a child is born and a doctor declares the child “viable.”

The catch was, an abortionist who was trying to kill the born child and failed, but achieves success if the born child now dies, could keep other doctors away and at no risk of anything announce his own success and have his desire of no living child rather than have to admit failure.

Simply by putting the living child in a utility room or whatever with no medical care and waiting for him or her to die, which surely will happen sooner or later especially with a premature baby.

It was up to the abortionist! All he had to do was say No this baby can’t live whether true or not. With absolutely no legal consequence. This wasn’t theory, this was recurring fact.

Not so after the law that Obama opposed, which reads:

"The term �??born alive,�?? with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord,

or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion."

This was by the way adopted by the vaunted United Nations in 1955, it’s nothing new, only new to the US. Still call it “stupid” and “chest beating” now that you actually know what it is?

As for the determination of many from foreign countries to comment on internal US issues which they know nothing about, your response that it is “juicy” does kind of explain your posts.

To me that choice of word suggest that to you it is gossip and the facts aren’t important, only hurling insults about how stupid this American law – that you didn’t even know the content – is and so forth?[/quote]

This really is a good illustration of the pivotal issue with Obama and the real reason he will lose the election. The man is simply not a leader and trying to guess what he actually stands for is pure speculation.

The child that was killed by the medical staff was in a hosptial and should have recieved medical care. It was a barbaric act. If Obama had character and was a leader and felt different he should have stated his opinion for or against the bill. He was wishy washy at best and tried frame his answers to offend the least amount of people.

I look at shit like this and say how can a man, who can’t stand up for an innocent human being, because he feels it will hurt is political career or standing with his party, possibly think he has the backbone to be the president and commander and chief.

Obama is more of a salesman at this point trying to sell the nation what he thinks they want to hear. He has become the product himself. Obama hasn’t convinced enough people what he stands for or what he will do and that will be his downfall. The pivotal states aren’t left wing moonbat zones like NY and Cali and that is why he will lose.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
The point is that it was not entirely his fault we went in there.[/quote]

Where did anyone say it was entirely Bush’s fault we invaded Iraq? My point was that as commander in chief he bears a significant portion of the blame for the invasion and botched execution, and I think that is part of the reason he will go down in history as one of our worst presidents ever.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Obama is more of a salesman at this point trying to sell the nation what he thinks they want to hear.[/quote]

I agree, but if you think McCain isn’t also a salesman you’re fooling yourself. Unfortunately, nearly all politicians are guilty of pandering to what the people want to hear rather than what they may need to hear.

[quote]forlife wrote:
rainjack wrote:
what do you call that sorry piece of shit move you just tried to pull?

Since you missed the point, I’ll spell it out for you.

Just because a president has the backing of congress doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for his actions. Your protection of Bush’s actions in the Iraq war by blaming congress is a sham argument. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.[/quote]

No - you missed the point. You missed it then, and you miss it now.

Go back to preaching to everyone about the nirvana that is gay marriage. You are worthless in discussing real issues.

I love how you make general statements like:

“You missed the point, nyah nyah!”

Without providing an ounce of logic to defend your statement.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it so. If only debating were that easy.

[quote]Gael wrote:

If a person supports a woman’s right to choose, why does it matter if the fetus is killed before or after it leaves the womb?

The two choices are morally equivalent, so to say Obama’s stance is “unforgivable” is to say all pro choice politicians are unforgivable.[/quote]

This is accurate of course. But even the federal statute was passed 98-0. The most liberal pro-choicers voted for protection, Obama was against keeping these kids alive…He is lower than dried up dog shit in my book. Hell, he may be even lower than lixy.

[quote]forlife wrote:
I love how you make general statements like:

“You missed the point, nyah nyah!”

Without providing an ounce of logic to defend your statement.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it so. If only debating were that easy.[/quote]

I made a point of your logical fallacy. Whether or not you have the intellectual honesty to face up to isn’t in my “give a shit” stack.

Maybe you should take your last statement to heart, look in the mirror, and see if you can’t see the nauseating irony in those words actually coming from you.

You don’t debate - unless lifty has redefined “debate” to be incessant bitching and whining.

You accused me of a logical fallacy without backing it up. Here’s the point again in case you want to actually address it this time:

Just because a president has the backing of congress doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for his actions. Your protection of Bush’s actions in the Iraq war by blaming congress is a sham argument.

I know it’s easier to call people names, but feel free to step up.

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
When, do you think, does life begin?

To me, this is the pivotal question in the whole abortion debate. Once you establish when life begins, you know when the fetus becomes a human being with the same protections belonging to any other human being.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to objectively establish when life begins. It is a subjective judgment call.

I do think it is ridiculous to claim a child magically becomes “human” simply by virtue of traveling a foot along a woman’s uterine canal. If it is human one second after birth, it was human one second before birth.[/quote]

It is not subjective. It is absolute. A fetus becomes a human being some point between the sperm banging in to the egg and the kid flopping out of the pussy. The only decernable points in the life cycle is conception and death. The actuality may be different and when somebody can present me some rock solid evidence that point ‘X’ is when the fetus becomes a person, I have to give the zygote the benifit of the doubt. The price of being wrong is to high.

What if you had an abortion at 12 weeks, and somebody comes with solid science that the fetus is a human 6 days after conception? That abortion has just become a murder. Is it worth the risk? It’s Russian roulette.

Hell even Jane Roe is against abortion now. Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe) is one of the biggest pro-life advocates in the world. She is trying to get roe v. wade tossed based on the fact that she was not provided all the facts. She worked at abortion clinic for over 20 years and seen more abortions than most abortion doctors. She was the hero of the pro-abortion movement. She lives a life full of regret. I had the pleasure of meeting her. I smoked a cigarette with her actually and talked with her at some length. She is doing everything in her power to undo what she did. I have never met a more fierce opponent to abortion than Jane Roe herself. If Jane Roe can 180 than anybody can.

[quote]forlife wrote:
You accused me of a logical fallacy without backing it up. Here’s the point again in case you want to actually address it this time:

Just because a president has the backing of congress doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for his actions. Your protection of Bush’s actions in the Iraq war by blaming congress is a sham argument.

I know it’s easier to call people names, but feel free to step up.[/quote]

First off, I never absolved Bush of anything. You were the one who brought p the war by saying it was Bush’s fault. I provided proof that he had to have had help from congress.

You came back with the red herring.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

You tend to love to hijack threads. I am done with this. Read the link, and either start a new thread about this or show some common decency and just shut the fuck up.

I never said the war was unilaterally Bush’s fault, dumb ass. Your response to me was:

[quote]Bush had the backing of congress. Please go check the congressional record if you doubt me.

Or, are you going to tell me that he went in all on his own with out the backing of congress? Please tell me you are smarter than this.[/quote]

I didn’t say Bush did it all on his own without the backing of congress. Learn to fucking read and quit putting words in my mouth.

(Maybe if I pepper my paragraphs with lots of Fucks you will actually read what I’m saying? Worth a try since polite conversation obviously doesn’t work with you.)