You’re committing a category error here. We’re not talking about “innate human reason,” because if it didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be able to have this discussion. We’re talking about the existence of moral facts - the things people know they ought or ought not do.
But since you brought that up, why do the laws of logic exist and how is human reason accounted for in the atheist theory of knowledge?
[/quote]
First of all, there is no atheist theory of knowledge. There is philosophy.
Secondly, the laws of logic stem from human reason, as do moral facts. If you’d like to call that innate human ability to discern between right and wrong “God” go right ahead. I will not stop you. In fact, I might just join you.
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.[/quote]
I hear that it costs $2 million for civilians to launch into space nowadays, so you might want to reconsider taking that bet.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Because I can do that, too.
P1: If God does not exist, evil does not exist.
P2: Evil does exist.
C: Hence, God exists.
Substitute “nuclear weapons,” “abortion,” “Osama bin Laden,” “a 1978 Chevrolet Impala” or “chocolate easter bunnies” for “evil,” and the argument is just as valid.[/quote]
If, morals exist, god exists (beyond a chemical reaction as a survival instinct)
morals exist
=>god exists
You can substitute love, good, bad, right, wrong, happy, sad, mad, joy, beauty, hope, pleasure, pain.
I would say that if you believe in the actual existence of any of these you believe in a higher power. Unless you think eating chocolate and being in love are the same thing.
I even think you could put free will in that statement, because without a higher power, we are no more self governed than iron is when it decides to rust.
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.[/quote]
Touche! I did fail to mention where you let said penny go…Earth Damn it! Earth!
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.
I hear that it costs $2 million for civilians to launch into space nowadays, so you might want to reconsider taking that bet. [/quote]
You’re committing a category error here. We’re not talking about “innate human reason,” because if it didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be able to have this discussion. We’re talking about the existence of moral facts - the things people know they ought or ought not do.
But since you brought that up, why do the laws of logic exist and how is human reason accounted for in the atheist theory of knowledge?
First of all, there is no atheist theory of knowledge. There is philosophy.
Secondly, the laws of logic stem from human reason…[/quote]
No they don’t. They’re the pre-requisites for human reason. Without them, you couldn’t think.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Because I can do that, too.
P1: If God does not exist, evil does not exist.
P2: Evil does exist.
C: Hence, God exists.
Substitute “nuclear weapons,” “abortion,” “Osama bin Laden,” “a 1978 Chevrolet Impala” or “chocolate easter bunnies” for “evil,” and the argument is just as valid.[/quote]
We can always start up our last discussion on the “Do you believe in God?” thread, Varq. If you’re not inclined to do that, why ought I be inclined to start up another similar discussion with you here? I mean, why should I waste my time?
You’re committing a category error here. We’re not talking about “innate human reason,” because if it didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be able to have this discussion. We’re talking about the existence of moral facts - the things people know they ought or ought not do.
But since you brought that up, why do the laws of logic exist and how is human reason accounted for in the atheist theory of knowledge?
First of all, there is no atheist theory of knowledge. There is philosophy.
Secondly, the laws of logic stem from human reason…
No they don’t. They’re the pre-requisites for human reason. Without them, you couldn’t think.
[/quote]
Humans did not invent logic, it was discovered…That is why it is so incredibly rigid, we have no influence over logic, we can use it or discard it. We cannot make the untrue, true and vice versa.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Because I can do that, too.
P1: If God does not exist, evil does not exist.
P2: Evil does exist.
C: Hence, God exists.
Substitute “nuclear weapons,” “abortion,” “Osama bin Laden,” “a 1978 Chevrolet Impala” or “chocolate easter bunnies” for “evil,” and the argument is just as valid.
We can always start up our last discussion on the “Do you believe in God?” thread, Varq. If you’re not inclined to do that, why ought I be inclined to start up another similar discussion with you here? I mean, why should I waste my time? [/quote]
Why must you always assume that I’m disagreeing with you, PRC? I was simply demonstrating the simple brilliance of your argument: one that is just as valid for proving the existence of God whether one presupposes moral facts, or chocolate easter bunnies.
My hat is off to you.
Oh, and our last discussion? You mean the one that started off with my teasing remark about Elisha and the bears, which was in response to someone else’s statement that God is always good… and ended with you repeatedly demanding a definition of the word “good”?
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.
I hear that it costs $2 million for civilians to launch into space nowadays, so you might want to reconsider taking that bet. [/quote]
Well, see, people like Dennis Tito and Greg Olsen fucked up by going through the “proper channels.” Of course they overpaid.
All I had to do to get my white ass into orbit was to slip the launch master at Baikonur a few bottles of Stolichnaya, a carton of Marlboros and a couple of Bulgarian prostitutes.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.
I hear that it costs $2 million for civilians to launch into space nowadays, so you might want to reconsider taking that bet.
Well, see, people like Dennis Tito and Greg Olsen fucked up by going through the “proper channels.” Of course they overpaid.
All I had to do to get my white ass into orbit was to slip the launch master at Baikonur a few bottles of Stolichnaya, a carton of Marlboros and a couple of Bulgarian prostitutes.
Cost me about a hundred and thirty bucks.[/quote]
Actually, if you are falling and you let penny go, it will stay right next to you…I rescind the bet. I don’t have a mil…
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Because I can do that, too.
P1: If God does not exist, evil does not exist.
P2: Evil does exist.
C: Hence, God exists.
Substitute “nuclear weapons,” “abortion,” “Osama bin Laden,” “a 1978 Chevrolet Impala” or “chocolate easter bunnies” for “evil,” and the argument is just as valid.
We can always start up our last discussion on the “Do you believe in God?” thread, Varq. If you’re not inclined to do that, why ought I be inclined to start up another similar discussion with you here? I mean, why should I waste my time?
Why must you always assume that I’m disagreeing with you, PRC? I was simply demonstrating the simple brilliance of your argument: one that is just as valid for proving the existence of God whether one presupposes moral facts, or chocolate easter bunnies.
My hat is off to you.
Oh, and our last discussion? You mean the one that started off with my teasing remark about Elisha and the bears, which was in response to someone else’s statement that God is always good… and ended with you repeatedly demanding a definition of the word “good”?
I’ll pass, thanks.
[/quote]
You’ll pass? Excellent. Perhaps you should quit trying to engage me on this topic then too, huh, to avoid wasting each other’s time? Don’t you have some Islam to defend elsewhere on this section of the forum?
You’ll pass? Excellent. Perhaps you should quit trying to engage me on this topic then too, huh, to avoid wasting each other’s time? Don’t you have some Islam to defend elsewhere on this section of the forum?
[/quote]
Nothing to engage. You have proven that God exists, using an irrefutable argument. I am simply backing you up by providing more evidence, in the form of a Chevy Impala and chocolate Easter bunnies.
And I’d say that Islam can manage pretty well without me defending it, after all.
[quote]pat wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
You cannot know that every time you let go of a penny, it will fall…It’s a pretty safe assumption based on the history of penny dropping, but you can never know it for certain. Key word 'assumption…BTW, If you hold a penny and let it go, I bet you $1 million bucks it will fall.
I’ll take that bet.
I hear that it costs $2 million for civilians to launch into space nowadays, so you might want to reconsider taking that bet.
Well, see, people like Dennis Tito and Greg Olsen fucked up by going through the “proper channels.” Of course they overpaid.
All I had to do to get my white ass into orbit was to slip the launch master at Baikonur a few bottles of Stolichnaya, a carton of Marlboros and a couple of Bulgarian prostitutes.
Cost me about a hundred and thirty bucks.
Actually, if you are falling and you let penny go, it will stay right next to you…I rescind the bet. I don’t have a mil…[/quote]
Technically, if you are in free-fall, then the penny would also be falling, just not relative to you. So in that case you would win the bet.
So your axiom “a dropped penny always falls” depends entirely upon the presence of gravity.
You’ll pass? Excellent. Perhaps you should quit trying to engage me on this topic then too, huh, to avoid wasting each other’s time? Don’t you have some Islam to defend elsewhere on this section of the forum?
Nothing to engage. You have proven that God exists, using an irrefutable argument. I am simply backing you up by providing more evidence, in the form of a Chevy Impala and chocolate Easter bunnies.
[/quote]
Quiting one and then expecting me to jump into another with you is a bit unfair, not that you’re much into fairness.
You would think, wouldn’t you? I mean, few of us conservatives (yourself exclused) haven’t noticed the soldiers of Allah in every part of the globe “defending” Islam. But there you always are…like a moth to a flame.
And speaking of moth to a flame, you never miss an opportunity to take a dig a Christianity. I loved the time where you said, “I condemn nobody, and nobody’s holy book. I snicker at them all from time to time, but I don’t mean nothin’ by it. Mostly.” Gee, really? When have you snickered at the Qur’an and Hadith? When have you failed to snicker at the Bible? It’s amazing how on the “Do you believe in God?” thread, you were able to discuss Bible passages at length, but you can never seem to do so with the holy books of Islam. Whenever we get into a discussion of Christianity, there you are with your pseudo-intellectual spasms of snark: http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/christ_would_oppose_usa?id=2704869&pageNo=3
It’s amazing how much you know about Christianity (Paulianity, as you put it), how much criticism you have for it, and how little criticism and how much defense you have for Islam. Weird, huh, for a guy you condemns “nobody’s holy book?”
