Obama Supports Gay Marriage

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote] One more time, I’ll go over some of the benefits heterosexual marriage entails:

  • Promotes stable families in which children are raised by their biological parents. [/quote]

Maybe, certainly not a guarantee and plenty of the opposite. Either way the same could be said for a gay couple raising a kid (say if the biological Mom divorced and took on a lesbian partner).

[/quote]

Key word: Promotes. It’s State promotion of a certain arrangement that, when actualized, is recognized as beneficial to society. It’s not a magic government cupid’s arrow. Indeed, the fact that there is so much divorce and conflict even in the current institution should alert any right minded person as to the fragility of that institution, and the subsequent danger in tinkering with it.

See above.

I’m going to quote this later, but for now see here:

http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-children-with-same-sex-parents-at-a-disadvantage/

Could be. Also NOT be. See above.

Violates the entire point of encouraging the biological parents to remain together and raise their child in cooperation.

To be honest, as I’ve stated ad nauseum, I’m no longer interested in hearing the counter arguments to the above one more time. We’ve hit the reset button here enough times that I’m getting sick of defending common sense.

What I’m asking for is an equivalent list of what gays intend to bring to the table that will, when compared with my list above, balance out.

EDIT: Quote tag. Dangit I was so close.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-children-with-same-sex-parents-at-a-disadvantage/

[/quote]

factsaboutyouth.com

Really? That’s your source?

They are sponsored by freaking NARTH

“The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) is a non-profit organization that offers reparative therapy and other regimens that purport to change the sexual orientation of individuals who experience unwanted same-sex attraction. NARTH’s leaders describe their organization as “dedicated to affirming a complementary, male-female model of gender and sexuality.”[1] NARTH was founded in 1992 by Joseph Nicolosi, Benjamin Kaufman, and Charles Socarides. Its headquarters are in Encino, California, at the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic. Julie Hamilton is the current president of NARTH.[2] NARTH’s leaders disagree with the mainstream scientific consensus and the holding of the world’s major mental health organizations that homosexuality is not a disorder.[3][4][5][6]”

-wiki

Real unbiased source you got there.

Read factsaboutyouth.com’s page on homosexuality.

http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/homosexuality/

“Clinical and scientific research suggests that the causes of homosexuality, or same-sex attraction, are multi-factorial with environment and temperament playing the strongest roles.”

Actually if you do your own research you’ll find studies have found environment and biology to both be factors and also neither be factors.

Use scholarly sources, do your own research and make your own conclusion. You’ll find what you posted is a crock.

This article comes from a website that is a project of the American College of Pediatricians. It’s a bit long, so I will bold the most pertinent points for those who haven’t taken their Ritalin. Contains cited studies. Here is the link, followed by the article:

http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-children-with-same-sex-parents-at-a-disadvantage/

Are Children with Same-Sex Parents at a Disadvantage?

By Glenn T. Stanton, Director, Family Formation Studies

The simple answer is ?yes,? but the more precise question is ?disadvantaged compared to what??

There is a wealth of solid social, medical and psychological research indicating that children who grow up without their own married mother and father in the home face significant disadvantages in all important measures of well-being: physical and mental health, educational attainment, general happiness, confidence and empathy development, as well as protection from poverty, substance abuse, domestic violence and sexual abuse and avoidance of unmarried child-bearing.

Children who grow-up in any other family form ? single-parent family, divorced, step-family, or cohabiting parents ? don?t do as well by up to half in these measures compared to children living with their own married mother and father.

Said another way, none of the changes to family form over the last four decades has improved any important measure of child well-being, and no evidence to date indicates that same-sex parenting would be an improvement on any of these other forms.

Three points must be considered in understanding this reality.
Research Indicates Children Do Best When Raised By Married Mom & Dad

Quotes from leading scholarly summaries of this research:

? ?An extensive body of research tells us that children do best when they grow up with both biological parents. ? Thus, it is not simply the presence of two parents, as some have assumed, but the presence of two biological parents that seems to support child development.? (Kristin Anderson Moore, et al., ?Marriage From a Child?s Perspective: How Does Family Structure Affect Children, and What Can We Do about It?? Child Trends Research Brief (June 2002): 1.)

? ?Most researchers now agree that together these studies support the notion that, on average, children do best when raised by their two married, biological parents.? (Mary Parke, ?Are Married Parents Really Better for Children?? Center for Law and Social Policy, Policy Brief (May 2003): 1)

? ?Overall, father love appears to be as heavily implicated as mother love in offsprings? psychological well-being and health.? (Ronald P. Rohner and Robert A. Veneziano, ?The Importance of Father Love: History and Contemporary Evidence,? Review of General Psychology 5.4 (2001): 382-405)

? Health scores are 20 to 35 percent higher for children living with both biological parents, compared with those living in single or stepfamilies. (Deborah A. Dawson, ?Family Structure and Children?s Health and Well-being: Data from the National Health Interview Survey on Child Health,? Journal of Marriage and the Family, 53 (1991): 573 -584)

? ?When young boys have primary caretakers of both sexes, they are less likely as adults to engage in woman-devaluing activities and in self-aggrandizing, cruel or overly competitive male cults.? (Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen, My Brother?s Keeper: What the Social Sciences Do (and Don?t) Tell Us About Masculinity, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2002), p. 121)

? ?We should disavow the notion that ?mommies can make good daddies,? just as we should disavow the popular notion of radical feminists that ?daddies can make good mommies.? ?The two sexes are different to the core, and each is necessary ? culturally and biologically ? for the optimal development of a human being.? (David Popenoe, Life Without Father: Compelling New Evidence That Fatherhood and Marriage are Indispensable of the Good of Children and Society, (New York: The Free Press, 1996), p. 197)

Sara McLanahan of Princeton University, one of the world?s leading scholars on how family form impacts child well-being, explains from her extensive investigations:

? ?If we were asked to design a system for making sure that children?s basic needs were met, we would probably come up with something quite similar to the two-parent family ideal. Such a design, in theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and money of two adults, it would provide a system of checks and balances that promote quality parenting. The fact that both adults have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to sacrifice for that child and it would reduce the likelihood that either parent would abuse the child.? (Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur, Growing Up with a Single Parent: What Hurts, What Helps, (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1994), p. 38)
No Reliable Research Indicates Children in Same-Sex Homes Do As Well

Same-sex advocates are quick to explain that many professional health organizations have explained that children in same-sex homes do just as well in important health measures as children in heterosexual homes.

Their statements neglect a vital point of comparison. One must examine exactly what they have said, and what they have not said in order to understand what this actually means for child welfare.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the leading medical organization to make such a statement, and which most other organizations followed, simply said, ?a growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual.?

So curious people must ask, do the children with two gay or lesbian parents look like children with heterosexual intact, married parents? Do they look like children with hetero-divorced parents? Single parents? Hetero stepparents? Cohabiting parents?

Nowhere in the AAP?s research, nor in any of the studies they cited, are we told. If the AAP?s statement is going to tell us anything objectively useful, then the family structure of the heterosexual homes being compared is essential because the outcomes for each is dramatically different in nearly every important measure of child AND adult well-being.

This oversight deems the AAP statement utterly meaningless in providing any kind of decisive information on how helpful or harmful same-sex families could be to children. It essentially claims, ?Kids from lesbian-parented homes look like children from some kinds of heterosexual-parented home.? It says nothing specific about the quality or health-outcomes of lesbian- or gay-headed homes because some forms of heterosexual-parented homes are healthy and some are not.

Same sex parenting advocates have made no attempt in any professional literature to clarify this by specifically saying what kind of hetero-homes the same-sex homes in the studies were compared to.
It is Unethical To Subject Children To an Untested Social Experiment

No human culture anywhere, at any time, has ever raised a generation of children in same-sex homes. This is an experiment upon children to fulfill adult wishes to parent.

The family changes over the last four decades ? with its baggage of no-fault divorce, cohabitation, unwed childrearing and fatherlessness ? have shown beyond doubt that these changes have been a wholesale negative for child well-being.

Consider the research on just one of these previous experiments.

Similar to the same-sex family experiment, we entered our national divorce experiment with all the best of hopes and intentions. Advocates pushing the divorce experiment called forth a few authorities who assured us that children are resilient and they would adjust to living apart from their parents. ?Love would see them through? we were told, much like same-sex family advocates seek to assure us today.

Well, the millions of children who were subjected to this experiment tell us a different story, as witnessed by multiple studies:

? The American Academy of Pediatrics, the same organization that tells us the same-sex family will work out just fine, now tells us that divorce ?is a long, searing experience?characterized by painful loses.? (Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, ?The Pediatrician?s Role in Helping Children and Families Deal with Separation and Divorce,? Pediatrics 94 (1994): 119)

? ?Divorce is usually brutally painful to a child,? and 25 percent of adult children of divorce continue to have ?serious social, emotional, and psychological problems.? Meanwhile, only 10 percent of adult children from intact families had such problems. (E. Mavis Hetherington, For Better or For Worse: Divorce Reconsidered, (New York: W.W. Norton, 2002), p. 7)

? ?Children in post-divorce families do not, on the whole, look happier, healthier, or more well-adjusted even if one or both parents are happier. National studies show that children from divorced and remarried families are more aggressive toward their parents and teachers. They experience more depression, have more learning difficulties, and suffer from more problems with peers than children from intact families. Children from divorced and remarried families are two to three times more likely to be referred for psychological help at school than their peers from intact families. More of them end up in mental health clinics and hospital settings.? (Judith Wallerstein et al., The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study, (New York: Hyperion, 2000), xxiii)

Also, a convincing body of research shows us that children do not do as well when their mothers or fathers marry other people. And since it is biologically impossible for a child living in a same-sex home to be living with both natural parents, all same-sex homes are either literally step-families ? formed after the end of a heterosexual relationship ? or step-like, in that only one parent has a biological connection to the child.

? ?Social scientists used to believe that, for positive child outcomes, stepfamilies were preferable to single-parent families. Today, we are not so sure. Stepfamilies typically have an economic advantage, but some recent studies indicate that the children of stepfamilies have as many behavioral and emotional problems as the children of single-parent families, and possibly more. ?Stepfamily problems, in short, may be so intractable that the best strategy for dealing with them is to do everything possible to minimize their occurrence.? (David Popenoe, ?The Evolution of Marriage and the Problems of Stepfamilies,? in Alan Booth and Judy Dunn, eds., Stepfamilies: Who Benefits? Who Does Not? (Hillsdale, N.J.: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 1994), 5, 19.)

? Children from stepfamilies, where the biological father is missing, are 80 times more likely to have to repeat a grade and twice as likely to be expelled or suspended, compared to children living with both biological parents. (Nicholas Zill, ?Understanding Why Children in Stepfamilies Have More Learning and Behavior Problems Than Children in Nuclear Families,? in Alan Booth and Judy Dunn, eds., Stepfamilies: Who Benefits? Who Does Not? (Hillsdale, N.J.: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 1994), p. 100.)

[b]Conclusion

A wise and compassionate society always comes to the aid of children in motherless or fatherless families, but a wise and compassionate society never intentionally subjects children to such families. But every single same-sex home would do exactly that, for no other reason than that a small handful of adults desire such kinds of families.

There is no research indicating such homes will be good for children. In fact the data show us that the family experimentation we have subjected children to over the past 30 years has all failed to improve human well-being in any important way. What makes us think more of it will make the situation any better? It will only make life for our children dramatically worse.[/b]

[quote]Conclusion

A wise and compassionate society always comes to the aid of children in motherless or fatherless families, but a wise and compassionate society never intentionally subjects children to such families. But every single same-sex home would do exactly that, for no other reason than that a small handful of adults desire such kinds of families. [/quote]

I don’t see how. As you’ve stated they can’t produce these children (hence their lack of benefit to society in your and others arguments) so ALL of the children being raised in a same sex marriage would be “aided by society” in that they’d either be the children of divorcees, abandoned, adopted, or otherwise. There is no way to subject a newborn to a same sex marriage unless the “perfect scenario of both biological parents” was somehow broken in the first place.

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Conclusion

A wise and compassionate society always comes to the aid of children in motherless or fatherless families, but a wise and compassionate society never intentionally subjects children to such families. But every single same-sex home would do exactly that, for no other reason than that a small handful of adults desire such kinds of families. [/quote]

I don’t see how. As you’ve stated they can’t produce these children (hence their lack of benefit to society in your and others arguments) so ALL of the children being raised in a same sex marriage would be “aided by society” in that they’d either be the children of divorcees, abandoned, adopted, or otherwise. There is no way to subject a newborn to a same sex marriage unless the “perfect scenario of both biological parents” was somehow broken in the first place.[/quote]

Before you consider his link please read this

btw , I don’t think even the folks that are open to the idea of letting gays marry would argue or are against the promotion of the ideal (biological parents, man and woman, stable, loving, supportive) as the best environment. Have to add the loving, stable, supportive bit otherwise the entire hetero/biological parents argument is moot IMO.

Although I think its pretty gnarly to see two dudes kissing each other and all of that, to them it is more than just fishing buddies rubbing their dicks together or whatever. It is love and a move towards a committed married relationship the same as heteros do. I understand TB’s societal benefit argument and it makes sense so where is the middle road of recognition of their union but no benefits as heteros since they don’t produce offspring?

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

I like that you routinely use insults, not as much as ZEB certainly, but when anything is directed at you it seems that you pee…just a little bit. [/quote]

C’mon - you come in here, flapping your gums, calling names, relying on ad hominems and insistence on hitting the reset button, and you want to complain that someone - sniff - insulted you? So in addition to being an imbecile, you are hyopcrite? Good to know.

Try it on someone else, doesn’t work on me.

I explained it - that’s right - in my very last post to you. It’s right there, read it. It’s on scores of pages in this thread and in the other one. Read them.

You have this odd tendency to just keep repeating, over and over, that “no one has explained why!”, despite page after page and direct posts to you doing exactly that.

Turns out, we are all filled up with low-wattage, can’t-follow-an-argument-to-save-their-life left-wingers on this thread, so go sell dumb somewhere else. No one is buying it, least of all me.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
[b]Conclusion

A wise and compassionate society always comes to the aid of children in motherless or fatherless families, but a wise and compassionate society never intentionally subjects children to such families. But every single same-sex home would do exactly that, for no other reason than that a small handful of adults desire such kinds of families.

There is no research indicating such homes will be good for children. In fact the data show us that the family experimentation we have subjected children to over the past 30 years has all failed to improve human well-being in any important way. What makes us think more of it will make the situation any better? It will only make life for our children dramatically worse.[/b] [/quote]

Cortes, very interesting stuff, and one thing you’ve been touching on that doesn’t get enough discussion is the importance of distinct masculine and feminine influences in a child’s life (especially as it pertains to parents). These needs cannot be substituted.

Excellent stuff, as usual.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
I understand TB’s societal benefit argument and it makes sense so where is the middle road of recognition of their union but no benefits as heteros since they don’t produce offspring?[/quote]

Why does there need to be a middle road? What is this urge to have the state honor homosexuality above any all other relationships (excepting the one we agree naturally carries with it an irreplaceable and critical function)? They’re gay, those folks over there are friends…The state has no interest at all.

4am here. MUST tear myself away from the computer and go to bed. Get back with yall tomorrow.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
I understand TB’s societal benefit argument and it makes sense so where is the middle road of recognition of their union but no benefits as heteros since they don’t produce offspring?[/quote]

Why does there need to be a middle road? What is this urge to have the state honor homosexuality above any all other relationships (excepting the one we agree naturally carries with it an irreplaceable and critical function)? They’re gay, those folks over there are friends…The state has no interest at all.[/quote]

There doesn’t have to be anything of course but the reality is as a whole on major issues people at least try to find a middle ground. Maybe that middle ground is simply leaving that power solely in the state’s rights arena. But big difference between those two are friends and those two want to enter into a union/marriage.

TB,

Nope, you still haven’t given one good reason against gay marriage, you are clearly not understanding the question. You can post all the info you want about traditional marriage roles, values, social benefits etc. but none of that is an argument against gay marriage. Your failure in this debate is epic and will live on forever in the internet.

And regarding the name calling, I couldn’t give two shits about it, but I am not the one asking for a 3rd party to intervene (that would be you I believe). You are doing a great job of restating your (incorrect) points, now answer the question…or admit you can’t.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

Nope, you still haven’t given one good reason against gay marriage, you are clearly not understanding the question. You can post all the info you want about traditional marriage roles, values, social benefits etc. but none of that is an argument against gay marriage. Your failure in this debate is epic and will live on forever in the internet.[/quote]

Yep, from my posts to you, two pages ago:

[quote]In any event, of course we don’t live in an ideal world, and that is the entire point of publicly recognizing marriage at all - we enact marriage to try and remedy some of those imperfections by steering people toward the desired outcome (intact family, two biological parents, low-conflict marriage).

if we lived in an ideal world, we wouldn’t have the public policy of marriage because we would have no need for it.[/quote]

And:

[quote]And that has been my response to you - we have no public policy interest in channeling children into alternatives. We want to steer children toward the best we have. We do so because…wait for it…we have an imperfect world that requires us to do so because so many people would like to…wait for it…raise children outside of the confines of the best arrangement (or they simply don’t care enough to). If it weren’t for so many people trying to raise kids outside of the best arrangement, we wouldn’t need to privilege the best arranagement in law.

Marriage laws exist precisely to encourage people not to engage in alternative child raising, and always has. Gay marriage undermines that pirnciple, as would every other inferior alternative.[/quote]

I’ll say it again - we don’t have a public policy interest in enacting gay marriage because we are trying to steer child-raising away from alternative arrangements, not toward them. I’ve said this to you in multiple posts. I’ve provided post after post in this thread and the other one.

So, asked and answered. But let me guess - in response to this post you’ll declare “you haven’t given me a single reason against gay marriage!”.

Oh, and this:

Awesome - I am dealing with a twelve year old, apparently.

Seriously - when did PWI become left-wing amateur hour? We used to have smart, articulate “progressives” who were interesting and thoughtful - now we get BrianHanson, who is dumb as a bag of cats.

TB,

Gay Marriage is not Gay Adoption, I honestly didn’t think I needed to tell you that. The thread is entitled “Obama Supports Gay Marriage” are you learning impaired? It is fascinating to me that you are having such a problem with this. Gay adoption is an entirely separate argument, explain why gay marriage is bad, English TB do you understand it?

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

Gay Marriage is not Gay Adoption, I honestly didn’t think I needed to tell you that. The thread is entitled “Obama Supports Gay Marriage” are you learning impaired? It is fascinating to me that you are having such a problem with this. Gay adoption is an entirely separate argument, explain why gay marriage is bad, English TB do you understand it?[/quote]

If you bothered reading the thread - and I assume you can read, but that might be charitable - you would know that the primary justification for the public policy of marriage - i.e., the reason we should elevate the institution of private gay marriage into a publicly-recognized institution protected in law, etc. - was that we needed gay marriage to provide homes for unwanted children. That is from the gay marriage advocates, genius.

Since the primary focus on marriage is to order child-raising, that is where gay marriage advocates were forced to go, as there was no other justification provided by gay marriage - i.e., society doesn’t benefit from the public institution of gay marriage.

And, gay marriage advocates once again failed to overcome even that hurdle.

So, if gay marriage and gay adoption all that related and shouldn’t be argued that way, take it up with your brethren here in favor of gay marriage, who have been arguing precisely the opposite since the beginning of the thread.

Again, we don’t need gay marriage, because gay coupling doesn’t produce children, and we have no interest in erecting alternative marriage arrangements because we want to channel child-raising into the best arrangement, not the inferior ones.

Good Lord. Seriously. Asked and answered.

Okay, only a few minutes so this will be short:

Raj doesn’t like those studies, well here’s some more:

Fourth National Incidence Studyof Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS?4)
Report to Congress
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/abuse_neglect/natl_incid/reports/natl_incid/nis4_report_congress_full_pdf_jan2010.pdf

^^^Pages 5-19 to 5-25 contain the good stuff.

Children ‘safer with biological parent’
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/children-safer-with-biological-parent/story-e6frg8y6-1111116267294

National Survey of Children?s Health Finds Intact Family and Religious Participation
Are Associated with Fewer Developmental Problems in School-Age Children
By
Nicholas Zill, Ph.D. and Philip Fletcher, Ph.D.

^^^Since I’m SURE the motivations behind the above will be questioned, here’s a quote from body of the text:

[b]Source of the Data.[b/] Data analyzed in the study came from public-use
microdata files of the National Survey of Children?s Health (NSCH), conducted by
the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) in 2003. The data were collected
through telephone interviews with parents of 102,353 children and teens in all 50
states and the District of Columbia. 68,996 of the young people were in the age range
6 through 17 years, the age group that was the focus of the study. The survey sample
in this age range represented a population of nearly 49 million
young people nationwide. Further information about the NSCH is available in
NCHS publications (Blumberg et al, 2005; Bramlett & Blumberg, 2007).

Read more if you want it.

What I find funny is that you, raj, and others like you, will twist yourselves into knots trying to avoid confronting the one, simple, basic, common sense take-away point that apparently even you do not require a scientific study to allow. That is, generally speaking, kids do best when raised by their own biological mother and father in intact, low-conflict families.

You know this. Everyone else knows this. The people who claim it isn’t true certainly cannot show any sort of evidence for such a preposterous claim, and when pushed, like you, would not be willing to admit that the role of either parent can be replaced with an equivalent non-biological other.

THIS is what we are looking to ENCOURAGE. Not one other thing.

Cortes and TB,

Gay marriage is not gay adoption. Gay marriage is a way for two committed, consenting adults to share in all the benefits that are reserved for married couples (insurance,medical decisions,SS benefits, Tax benefits, legal standing etc.). Ifmarriage is good for the physical and emotional (and financial) well being of the straight community, it stands to reason that it would be the same for gays. If you are trying to punish gays for being gay you are being malicious and bigoted, in other words you are at least being honest about your nature.
Gay marriage is in no way related to gay adoption, using adoption as a reason to shoot down gay marriage is just a sign that you have no real argument against gay marriage, you just don’t like “the gays” being treated the same as you.
You do not need to show a societal benefit to make something legal (booze, cigarettes, handguns, rollercoasters, hot air balloons, skydiving blah blah blah) these are all regulated by some state or federal agency (sometimes both) and much like gay marriage do not need to demonstrate how they help, they only need to show that they are not innately bad for society (booze, smokes, guns, seriously you think gay marriage is more destructive?). Not liking gay marriage is your only defense, and it is a weak one.
As for gays adopting, whether they do or do not isn’t the issue. They have been adopting for nearly 40 years, it’s legal in 14 countries and in the US:
“Based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, Third District Court of Appeal State of Florida was satisfied in 2010 that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption.[3]”
In other words gay adoption is good. It is also not the topic of this thread.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Cortes and TB,

Gay marriage is not gay adoption. Gay marriage is a way for two committed, consenting adults to share in all the benefits that are reserved for married couples (insurance,medical decisions,SS benefits, Tax benefits, legal standing etc.). Ifmarriage is good for the physical and emotional (and financial) well being of the straight community, it stands to reason that it would be the same for gays. If you are trying to punish gays for being gay you are being malicious and bigoted, in other words you are at least being honest about your nature.
Gay marriage is in no way related to gay adoption, using adoption as a reason to shoot down gay marriage is just a sign that you have no real argument against gay marriage, you just don’t like “the gays” being treated the same as you.
You do not need to show a societal benefit to make something legal (booze, cigarettes, handguns, rollercoasters, hot air balloons, skydiving blah blah blah) these are all regulated by some state or federal agency (sometimes both) and much like gay marriage do not need to demonstrate how they help, they only need to show that they are not innately bad for society (booze, smokes, guns, seriously you think gay marriage is more destructive?). Not liking gay marriage is your only defense, and it is a weak one.
As for gays adopting, whether they do or do not isn’t the issue. They have been adopting for nearly 40 years, it’s legal in 14 countries and in the US:
“Based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, Third District Court of Appeal State of Florida was satisfied in 2010 that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption.[3]”
In other words gay adoption is good. It is also not the topic of this thread.[/quote]

Gay adoption is not our argument. It’s the one the other side has argued themselves into. So I guess they have no real argument for gay marriage.

Thanks for pointing that out. (^=^)b

Cortes,

Nope it (gay adoption) is your fallacious argument against something else (gay marriage). You need to prove gay marriage is bad, you can’t, hence the discussion ends with you unable to provide any shred of evidence in support of your claim.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
You need to prove gay marriage is bad[/quote]

No.

Marriage is not a relationship.
It’s the social recognition of a relationship.
And it’s an institution.
So it’s not about letting (gay) people do what they want as long as it is “not bad”.
It’s about forcing ALL people in a society to support something.

so YOU need to prove gay marriage is good.
Not only good for gays, but good for the whole society.
And good enough to become an institution.

You’ll have some difficulty to prove that.
Which is the point.