[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Sob stories?
They torture and detain people of umlcear status indefinitely without access to a tribunal to determine their status.
Viola, they violate the Geneva convention and therefore, according to your argument resistance to their occupation is a-ok.
Second, what does it matter what Austrians thought?
I thought that the only important thing is what our masters in Washington decree and they, in their infinite wisdom, peace be upon them, declared us to be the Nazis first victim.
Just because some lowly Austrians thought otherwise hardly matters, the oracle by the Potomac has spoken and for you that is the final word.
Cant have it both ways, can you?
[/quote]
Wow.
Odorous even for you, Franz.
Even for you.[/quote]
Odorous and odious.
Orion, when he lacks a fact to showcase his bigoted rubbish, relies on the rhetorical devices of false choices or false comparisons. There is simply no reason to be falsely trapped by this crap, since no, the US is not like the German-Austrian state, dedicated as it was from top to bottom uniquely and irreversibly to genocide.
But there are sometimes things he writes which cannot stand unexamined; for example, that it was the US which called Austria “the first victim.” History speaks clearly of Austrians’ role in WWII; they did not then consider themselves victims, but were joyful perpetrators–at every level–in the genocides of that war. Wherefrom, then, the planned denial of “first victimhood?”
The crime continued in that generation in the form of denial of the truth, and the lies perpetrated by the Germans and Austrians that they were innocent victims, that the Wehrmacht had “clean hands,” and so forth. It was the Germans and the Austrians themselves who invented the lie of “first victim.” Where the US–and Britain, in the Declaration of Moscow–are to be faulted is in the acquiescence to this lie, and particularly in the failure to pursue the truth because lies were so much more conducive to the reconstruction of Europe (not Germany alone), especially in the face of Soviet threat.
(The nature of orion’s lie is fully evaluated, generation by generation, by Wolfram Wette The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality, a title he will find curiously translated from Die Wehrmacht–Feindbilder , vernichtungskrieg, legenden)
It is simply perverse–leave alone inaccurate–for orion to claim that Someone in Washington unilaterally declared Austria to be a victim. But it also follows his general manner of discourse. He, too, believes and promulgates the lies, or uses them because it is so much more convenient to do so than to face the historical truth. (Now, that is being a slave to one’s own narrative.) And so it is from one generation to the next.
[/quote]
Wow, allmost all of this is wrong, except for the part where Austria happily went along with that myth for a period sfter WWII.
The rest is ignorant rubish.
Anyhow, so we have established that the US government does lie when it is politically expedient and that was all I was trying to show, so I guess Sifus stance is pretty much finished now .
They lied then, they lie now, they will lie in the future so their word is worth nothing.
Thanks for playing.
[/quote]
DrSkeptix as usual has brought some wisdom to this discussion. If anyone is a slave to their own narrative it is you Orion. All through this the narrative you have tried to push down our throats is that the US is this horrible bully, our horrible military tortures people and horrible Americans venerate all of this.
For a long time now you have had a singular objective to make it appear as if America and Americans are just as bad or even worse than the all time world champion of bad behavior, Austrians.
You keep on trying to drag us down to the level of your people and I am not going to quietly go along with it because your self serving comparisons are bullshit. Because there is no comparison. What your people did at Auschwitz. That was genocide. What your people at Auschwitz called “medical research”. That was torture. Your grandparents knowing what the wehrmacht and SS were doing and not speaking out against it. That was veneration of the military in a way that Americans have never done.
You saying what is going on in Guantanamo is torture is to make a comparison to what your people did at Auschwitz when there is no comparison, it is not even close.
It is easy for you to sit back and talk shit about what we are doing to try and protect ourselves, when all you have to do is remind the jihadists that Hitler was your guy, you did your part to rid the world of Jews and you would have succeeded if it wasn’t for the evil Americans thwarting your plans.
You may be able to play the innocent victim card on naive kids who know nothing of history, but that isn’t going to work with those of us who know the history. The terrorist groups that we are having problems with now are direct descendants of groups and people who were supported by Hitler.
In the 1930’s Egypt’s muslim brotherhood aligned itself with the third reich and received support from it. The muslim brotherhood is where Iman Zawahiri got his start.
Amin Al-Husseini the grand mufti of Jerusalem was one of Hitlers best friends. His nephew who he raised was Yasser Arafat.
Rashid Al-Qailani was Amin Al-Husseini right hand man in Iraq who in 1941 helped Al-Husseini instigate a pro nazi coup in Iraq. Rashid Al-Qailani’ nephew and future son in law who he raised was Saddam Hussein. This I think is the real source of Orion’s indignation over Saddam getting taken out. Saddam was the beneficiary of a power structure whose lineage went directly back to Der Fuhrer. When we took out Saddam we took out one of the last vestiges of the third reich.
Admit it Orion, it really bothers you to see your grandparents work undone. [/quote]
So let us do that bit by bit:
He claims that Austria is in denial when it comes to our role in WWII.
We are not. I just brought up that the US claims a lot of shit when it is politically expedient to do so.
He claimed that Germans and Austrians invented the story that we were the first victim of Germany.
The Germnans had no incentive to do that and it was first claimed at Yalta were the Austrians were obviously not invited even though we happily went along wit hit after WWII.
Insofar his other points were also complete nonsense because he tries to refute points that I never made.
I cannot argue with someone who responds to the voices in his head.
As to your post.
Not once have I posted that the US s actions are similar to that of the Nazis.
I do however claim that a lot of the techniques the Nazis used are used on the US population to goad them into war over and over again.
Not once have I claimed that what happened in Abu Ghareib is comparable in magnitude or intend to what happened in Auschwitz I have pointed out however that that is no excuse for what is happening all around the world RIGHT NOW.
Also, when I should ever encounter someone on this board who knows enough about German or Austrian history I would not have to draw the parallels that do exist because they are glaringly obvious.
