NYC to Ban Infant Formula

[countingbeans]

[quote]cueball wrote:

The word prescription appears nowhere in that text. It doesn’t imply anything. It clearly states a doctor has to sign off on supplementation. [/quote]

Where is the word doctor in this, copy pasted from your post above:

“-Enforce the NYS hospital regulation to not supplement breastfeeding infants with formula feeding unless medically indicated and documented on the infant?s medical chart;”

That is classic “implies a doctor has to sign off on supplementation” unless I completely misunderstand what “clearly states a doctor” means here. Because I don’t see where it states a Doctor has to make the determination of the medical indication, where as a nurse could or even the mother, also make that call given what is written.

What am I missing here?

But that refers to a baby that is already being breastfed. it says absolutely nothing about disallowing a mother’s choice to formula feed. Jackie is stating a doctor has to OK that choice. It’s wrong.

Fine, whatever. I’m trying to move past us talking about what she said.

[quote]
But it only applies to hospital supply. There is nothing there that says mothers will be prohibited, restricted, or otherwise in feeding formula to their baby. There is nothing there restricting a mother from purchasing her own formula, bringing it in, and feeding it to her baby. [/quote]

How do you get it only applies to hospital supply from:

“-Restrict access to infant formula by hospital staff”?

That to me certainly seems like a reasonable person could conclude that it applies to the formula the mother brought in being fed to the baby while in the nursery. (Which may already regulated, and hospital staff cannot feed the baby formula you bring in from the outside, but I’m not at all sure on that.)

So again, what does restricted really mean here and what is the authorization process? We don’t know. I’m assuming a different process than you. Both are reasonable, no?

The mother appears to be free to formula feed yes, but it doesn’t appear the hospital staff are free to accommodate that choice.

[quote]
At least I’m trying to stay objective and only go by what information has been given.[/quote]

Sure, so am I.

All I’ve been saying is that the text doesn’t say this or that.

I believe I just showed you that you have been saying the text does, in fact, say this or that.

No?

[quote]
I certainly won’t automatically cry foul and assume it means a woman’s choice to formula feed has to be OK’d. It doesn’t say that. Until there is language saying a mother will NOT be allowed to use formula even though she chooses, I’ll stick to this.[/quote]

Until the language says that both options will be given equal consideration and ease of implimentation, I’ll stick with this is government getting involved in shit it has no right to be involved in.

Because you want to automatically assume all the unknowns are altrusitic doesn’t make them so.

[cueball]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

That is classic “implies a doctor has to sign off on supplementation” unless I completely misunderstand what “clearly states a doctor” means here. Because I don’t see where it states a Doctor has to make the determination of the medical indication, where as a nurse could or even the mother, also make that call given what is written. [/quote]

It references a medical chart. I’m assuming only a doctor would be filling out the chart. Doctors are usually the ones who determine medically necessary items. Maybe a nurse would have some authority there, I don’t know.

Until the language says that both options will be given equal consideration and ease of implimentation, I’ll stick with this is government getting involved in shit it has no right to be involved in.

Because you want to automatically assume all the unknowns are altrusitic doesn’t make them so.

Just because I don’t automatically see “bad” in unknowns, doesn’t mean I automatically see it as perfectly altruistic. There have been a lot of assumptions being made without enough language to make those on.

Also, please see my second post.

[countingbeans]

[quote]cueball wrote:
Maybe this will calm Jackie down-

NYC Hospitals' Baby Formula Plan Rankles Mommy Bloggers

-Breastfeeding experts said that in light of this dismal situation, the New York City plan is sorely needed ? and they say such policies will not restrict mothers? choices in feeding their infants.
?Locking the formula up and paying for it does NOT mean it won?t be available for mothers who choose to exclusively formula feed or for mothers who want to supplement or for medically necessary formula supplementation,? wrote Dr. Lori Feldman-Winter, a pediatrician at Children?s Regional Hospital at Cooper in Camden, N.J. ?It simply helps keep track of usage and cuts down on indiscriminate use.?

-And according to the Latch On NYC website, there is no requirement for new mothers to breastfeed while in the hospital. ?While breastfeeding is healthier for both mothers and babies, staff must respect a mother?s infant feeding choice,? the website states.[/quote]

I’m glad this person I’ve never met, heard of, nor do I trust because some journalist quotes her feels free to not only be my moral compass, but the moral compass of the entire world

Fucking nerve of some people:

[quote]Feldman-Winter, who is a published researcher on the topic of infant formula use in hospitals, said closer monitoring of formula has been demonstrated to make a difference.

â??We have shown that once the formula is kept in a locked cabinet (â??locked upâ??) and used only when medically necessary, then the usage is cut in half, resulting in more infants exclusively breastfeeding, an outcome good for the infant, family and our society as a whole,â?? she said.
[/quote]

“Published researcher”? This is who we are giving free reign to guilt mothers and dictate free will through suggestion to?

Again, from above:

But the site does encourage hospital staff to remind mothers of the health benefits of breastfeeding when they request formula. Among the recommendations offered on the website for hospital staff is advice that they can â??[a]ssess if breastfeeding is going well and encourage the mother to keep tryingâ??

Yup, awesome. How about the nurse does what my wife asks and shuts the fuck up about it if it isn’t harming my child? What happened to that?

[countingbeans]

[quote]cueball wrote:

Also, please see my second post.[/quote]

haha, All that did was piss me off more. lol

[cueball]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
Maybe this will calm Jackie down-

NYC Hospitals' Baby Formula Plan Rankles Mommy Bloggers

-Breastfeeding experts said that in light of this dismal situation, the New York City plan is sorely needed ? and they say such policies will not restrict mothers? choices in feeding their infants.
?Locking the formula up and paying for it does NOT mean it won?t be available for mothers who choose to exclusively formula feed or for mothers who want to supplement or for medically necessary formula supplementation,? wrote Dr. Lori Feldman-Winter, a pediatrician at Children?s Regional Hospital at Cooper in Camden, N.J. ?It simply helps keep track of usage and cuts down on indiscriminate use.?

-And according to the Latch On NYC website, there is no requirement for new mothers to breastfeed while in the hospital. ?While breastfeeding is healthier for both mothers and babies, staff must respect a mother?s infant feeding choice,? the website states.[/quote]

I’m glad this person I’ve never met, heard of, nor do I trust because some journalist quotes her feels free to not only be my moral compass, but the moral compass of the entire world

Fucking nerve of some people:

[quote]Feldman-Winter, who is a published researcher on the topic of infant formula use in hospitals, said closer monitoring of formula has been demonstrated to make a difference.

�?�¢??We have shown that once the formula is kept in a locked cabinet (�?�¢??locked up�?�¢??) and used only when medically necessary, then the usage is cut in half, resulting in more infants exclusively breastfeeding, an outcome good for the infant, family and our society as a whole,�?�¢?? she said.
[/quote]

“Published researcher”? This is who we are giving free reign to guilt mothers and dictate free will through suggestion to?

Again, from above:

But the site does encourage hospital staff to remind mothers of the health benefits of breastfeeding when they request formula. Among the recommendations offered on the website for hospital staff is advice that they can �?�¢??[a]ssess if breastfeeding is going well and encourage the mother to keep trying�?�¢??

Yup, awesome. How about the nurse does what my wife asks and shuts the fuck up about it if it isn’t harming my child? What happened to that?

[/quote]

Beans, notice I didn’t quote any of that crap. I personally agree with your feelings on that matter. I quoted what I did in DIRECT response to the question of whether or not the initiative would restrict a mother’s ability to do what she wants. A quote from a pediatrician and a quote direct form the initiative’s website. Both say a mother’s wishes will be respected.

There was A LOT of controversy earlier because the press release didn’t contain this language and you even stated you wouldn’t change your stance on that particular matter until you see language stating as such. Now you guys have it.

The researcher is saying monitoring formula makes a difference. i don’t think she’s the one going around personally guilting mothers. You yourself have stated that crap has been going on long before this came up. If you want to complain government shouldn’t be suggesting anything, that’s fine. My point al along is that there is no forced breastfeeding or ban on formula of any kind. There were SEVERAL people who claimed the opposite. I posted what I did to put an end to that line of thinking.

There is no restriction on a mother’s choice on how they feed their child and it’s what I’ve been saying throughout this thread. See below:

“-according to the Latch On NYC website, there is no requirement for new mothers to breastfeed while in the hospital. ‘While breastfeeding is healthier for both mothers and babies, staff must respect a mother?s infant feeding choice,’ the website states.”

[countingbeans]

[quote]cueball wrote:

Beans, notice I didn’t quote any of that crap. I personally agree with your feelings on that matter.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure we agree on a lot here to be honest. It’s just fun having the discussion with you to be honest.

EDIT: talk about redundant honesty…

[cueball]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Beans, notice I didn’t quote any of that crap. I personally agree with your feelings on that matter.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure we agree on a lot here to be honest. It’s just fun having the discussion with you to be honest.

EDIT: talk about redundant honesty…[/quote]

I’d say so. Thanks for hashing it out with me. Time to catch up on work.

[bcingu]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So you admit you can’t debate my point but rather who is making it?

And if that hurts your feelings than boo hoo.[/quote]

No, my point was that you have double standards for what constitutes an ad hominem attack.

And it does not.

[quote]Your argument: It’s cool the government is doing this, breast is best! But when the government wants to take away my test supps, ooohhhh noo ya don’t.

My Argument: Government has no say in the matter, period. (Outside of testing the formula to make sure it isn’t ground up bumpers.)[/quote]

Yes, I use my brain and the modicum of knowledge that it possesses to determine whether something the government says is factually accurate. Sometimes (often) the government lies or misrepresents the truth. If you can demonstrate how the government’s stance on breast milk fits that description, then I am open to hearing it.

Regarding “test supps”…I believe that anyone should be able to put anything they desire in their own bodies, assuming it has no adverse effect on other people. I personally don’t use those supplements, or heroin, or cigarettes, or alcohol, but I believe all of those things should be legal. As long as the users of these drugs don’t insist on my paying for their healthcare.

[quote]You’ve never sat in the delivery room or lamaz (sp) classes have you?

Breast feeding and its benefits get brought up about 1,456,789 times.[/quote]

Again, some people exist outside of your bubble. Some people are poor(!) and cannot afford lamaze classes. Some single mothers work multiple jobs, and don’t have the luxury to attend such classes. Some people cannot afford a higher education, and don’t have the same access to information that might seem commonplace to us. My concern is not for those of us (I’m presuming) in the upper-middle class who might find this information redundant and therefore vaguely insulting.

You failed to read my posts, but rather project what you want my point to be, because you can’t refute my point. You can pretend I want people to be uneducated and refute that though.

The feeling is mutual. I have repeatedly stated that I believe parents should be able to make whichever choice they think is appropriate. When I see this right being taken away, I will be the first one to protest it.

[quote]The fact I have to explain this is why this country is in the mess it is in.

Thing is, medical professionals have been pushing breast is best for awhile now, for good reason. There is nothing worng with this. Not a damn thing. Some of the advocacy groups are insane about it, to the point where it becomes an additional stressor for mothers in a situation that should be one of the most joyous moments in their life.

Have you ever seen a baby that won’t or can’t latch? Have you watch the look on the mother’s face when she doesn’t know if her poor newborn child is feeding or not? Have you seen what guilt can do to an already emotional event?[/quote]

Yes, I have. Unfortunately, it is a more common than most people realize.

[quote]Now add in, “the government agrees, you should breast feed”…

That is removing choice by dictating rational thought through suggestion. Look to JFit’s assertion to how well advertizing works. You don’t think the government’s wishes influence people?[/quote]

Again, you are using mendacious, fear-mongering language. Though I don’t quite see how encouraging people to use rational thought is harmful to society. People are welcome to follow the advice or disregard it. See below.

This is the same government that says eat 400lbs of grains everyday, but their health views are a-okay in this instance because you agree with it? It is like Obama supports calling Romney a liar and saying he won’t vote for him because he lies. Obama’s lies are A-okay because he is their guy… It is foolish.

So are you telling me that you eat 400lbs of grains everyday? You seem to find such despotic recommendations to be inescapably oppressive and freedom-infringing. Yet you, like me, are free to disregard this information, because you, like me, understand it to be false.

And you are preaching to the choir with your last point. I am as far as one can be from being a registered Democrat.

[countingbeans]

[quote]bcingu wrote:

Yes, I use my brain and the modicum of knowledge that it possesses to determine whether something the government says is factually accurate. Sometimes (often) the government lies or misrepresents the truth. If you can demonstrate how the government’s stance on breast milk fits that description, then I am open to hearing it.[/quote]

It isn’t relevant if what they are saying is true or not.

The point I’ve been making this entire time is: the government shoudln’t have a say, at all, in any of it. And even the most recent article posted pointed out a mother saying, “no I want formula” is to be responded to with “but breast is best, you should try and/or try again”.

You can’t deny the power of suggestion isn’t powerful, particularly for those that don’t have the same “modicum of knowledge” you have, can you? The fact is, the government is now backing an agenda. Can you honestly deny that?

Just because you feel the agenda is a good one, doesn’t stop the fact that government is trying to influence choice. (Does that language make it any better?)

Regarding “test supps”…I believe that anyone should be able to put anything they desire in their own bodies, assuming it has no adverse effect on other people. I personally don’t use those supplements, or heroin, or cigarettes, or alcohol, but I believe all of those things should be legal. As long as the users of these drugs don’t insist on my paying for their healthcare.

But you’re okay with the government forcing the hand of people by making one option more likely to happen through “control” of the other option?

I’m sorry, but I’m not cool with government picking and choosing what options they control, when neither is harmful in anyway.

[quote]
Again, some people exist outside of your bubble. Some people are poor(!) and cannot afford lamaze classes. Some single mothers work multiple jobs, and don’t have the luxury to attend such classes. Some people cannot afford a higher education, and don’t have the same access to information that might seem commonplace to us. My concern is not for those of us (I’m presuming) in the upper-middle class who might find this information redundant and therefore vaguely insulting.[/quote]

How Much Do Lamaze Classes Cost? - CostHelper

Looks like the average cost is $110, and WIC provides tons of breastfeeding information.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/Breastfeeding/mainpage.HTM

Yes, WIC is government funded, yes they are dictating free will with their promotion. Why do we need another government body doing it some more? To continue to push the agenda looks like.

Hey look at that, in 2009, 27 out of repsonding states have medicade that pays for Lamaze.

State Medicaid Coverage of Perinatal Services: Summary of State Survey...

Lack of income isn’t an excuse for lack of knowledge, not in 2012, not in America.

Note the classes can be one day on a weekend. I feel like most people can get a day off work for the welfare of thier child in most cases…

I have repeatedly stated that I believe parents should be able to make whichever choice they think is appropriate. When I see this right being taken away, I will be the first one to protest it.

And I stand by my impression that you aren’t seeing the right to choice being affected because you are okay with the stance government is taking.

Shit, I agree with the stance government is taking.

[quote]

Yes, I have. Unfortunately, it is a more common than most people realize.[/quote]

Right. Now you really want access to formula restricted and harder to get to when this happens? Or a nurse pushing an idea further?

[quote]
Again, you are using mendacious, fear-mongering language. Though I don’t quite see how encouraging people to use rational thought is harmful to society. People are welcome to follow the advice or disregard it. See below.[/quote]

This is taking away rational thought by controlling one option and not another… I can’t type it enough times. Not giving two choices, neither being harmful, equal emphasis isn’t giving free choice.

If my language is fear-mongering, then so be it. Seems to actually get people’s attention that way.

[quote]
So are you telling me that you eat 400lbs of grains everyday? You seem to find such despotic recommendations to be inescapably oppressive and freedom-infringing. Yet you, like me, are free to disregard this information, because you, like me, understand it to be false.[/quote]

Right. You are kind of contracting what you are trying to say in your bubble paragraph, no?

Maybe I’m miss-reading your point here.

[jehovasfitness]

Breast milk promotes a different gut flora growth than infant formulas

[LoRez]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120827094353.htm[/quote]

That seems kind of obvious to me. But I guess it’s good that there’s a headline for the media to quote.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120827094353.htm[/quote]

That seems kind of obvious to me. But I guess it’s good that there’s a headline for the media to quote.[/quote]

what seems obvious?

[countingbeans]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

Breast milk promotes a different gut flora growth than infant formulas

[/quote]

While you are busy wrapped up in your food fascism, you are missing the fact no one was saying breast milk isn’t a better food for the child.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

Breast milk promotes a different gut flora growth than infant formulas

[/quote]

While you are busy wrapped up in your food fascism, you are missing the fact no one was saying breast milk isn’t a better food for the child. [/quote]

I should have noted, I only posted this because I found it interesting, so others may as well. But, there wasn’t a need to create a separate thread. B/c then you would just comment “why create a separate thread you food fascist.” I just can’t win can I

[countingbeans]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I just can’t win can I [/quote]

lol, no.

But you fight a good fight, with good intention. So it is hard to complain.